Child Suffered Due to Lack of Passports

[sparks1093]

7 hours ago, mayleeman said:

This is really a silly argument. Okay, perhaps exceptions can be made, blah bblah blah... But why rely on getting a waiver or an emergency passport in a situation requiring medical care in a foreign country where you have no local transportation, probably don't speak the language, and need to take care of an injured or sick person, when you can avoid that mess of proving special circumstances by having a passport to begin with?

If one is overly worried about being sick or injured while on vacation they yes, they should probably cut to the chase and get the passport. Yes, I know, a million things can go wrong but for the vast majority of us they don't. I have to go back a good number of years in my life to find an incident that would have made me even think about leaving a cruise and the odds of something like that happening in the 7 days I'm on the cruise just aren't that good. Everyone's travel needs are different and everyone should use the best documentation that they can based on their individual circumstances. 

[sparks1093]

7 hours ago, capriccio said:

The US State Department's official website includes an entire section on international travel (https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel.html) including passports, emergencies, evacuations, cruises,country specific info, etc.  In the days before the internet a common belief (backed up by lots of experience) shared by many Embassy staff was that in a perfect world passport holders should be required to pass a test on what the US government overseas can and cannot do for you before being allowed to leave the country but there was no single place to readily access all the pertinent information.  🙂  Now with the website, it is a lot harder to plead ignorance. 

And most of that information does not apply to a closed loop cruise.

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Charles4515 said:

That is a straw man. No one  has posted that. 

But that is the way he interprets my comments. C'est la vie. 

[sparks1093]

7 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Yes, but understand that consulates generally work M-F and are closed on weekends and holidays.  If you need consulate services, such as an emergency Passport, you will have to wait until normal working hours.  The procedures can take 2 days and you will generally need to have a face to face.  This can be difficult when you are on an island that does not even have a consulate.  Much of the Caribbean is handled from a single Embassy location in Barbados.  In other countries the nearest Consulate can be hundreds of miles distant.  We live in Puerto Vallarta for part of the year and our nearest Consulate is located about a 5 hour drive distant in Guadalajara and is open M-F 8- 4:30.  Need an emergency document/Passport on Friday afternoon and it will likely be the following Tuesday until you get what you need.  And it will take about 11 hours round trip to simply get to and from the Consul.  And making that trip is not an easy.  Imagine being stuck on St Maarten and needing to see the Consul on Barbados!

 

Hank

Yes, Consulates are only open during the week and that's when the vast majority of ships are in port if they are on a closed loop cruise. And let's think about this logically for a minute- there is a passenger in a port without Consulate services that needs to get home because of an emergency. As the government you need to get this person home with minimal expense to yourself. The passenger can't fly to where you are because they don't have a passport, so they can't go through the normal issuing process required for a passport/emergency passport. You aren't about to spend money to fly one of your people to them. The most efficient way to get them home is to issue a waiver to them allowing them to fly to the nearest US airport. This waiver can be faxed to the people that need it. When the passenger arrives at the nearest US airport they are sent to secondary inspection to make sure that they are who they say they are (comparing their information with the information from the cruise line's manifest). Now, through all of this the passenger has not been required to do anything- the cruise line (through their port agent) has notified the appropriate liaison of the issue and set the gears in motion. This process is going to take time (how much time will depend heavily on the individual circumstances) and undoubtedly the passenger is going to be left in the dark through most of it. 

 

I have read of someone going through this procedure from Puerto Vallarta for a minor medical emergency (broken foot as I recall). Yes, it was posted here on Cruise Critic but their story didn't sound embellished in any way. I have also read of this procedure being used in Cozumel for passengers who had to leave the cruise to go home for something that happened back there. The regulations do allow for the passport requirement to waived for just this sort of circumstance. 

 

And again, this is all something that someone must consider when deciding whether to obtain a passport or not. (And I would suggest that they wouldn't have written the closed loop exception without some idea of having a plan to get people home that needed to get home and that is why they wrote further exceptions into the regulations.)

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by sparks1093

[navybankerteacher]

4 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

That is a straw man. No one  has posted that. 

There have been a number of posts on these threads mentioning that US consulates will issue emergency documents to get stranded cruisers home - without pointing out that it can take several days - and without mentioning that many ports do not have consulates, so the first problem is even getting the process started. 

[capriccio]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

And most of that information does not apply to a closed loop cruise.

 

My comment was meant to be generally helpful to any traveler.  First, some of the information does. When the State Department website has an entire section entitled Cruise Ship Passengers with the first question and answer is

 

I am taking a cruise.  Do I need a passport?

 

We recommend that everyone taking a cruise from the United States have a passport book. Though some “closed-loop” cruises may not require a U.S. passport, we recommend bringing yours in case of an emergency, such as an unexpected medical air evacuation or the ship docking at an alternate port. Also, your cruise company may require you to have a passport, even if U.S. Customs and Border Protection does not.

 

and the third question and answer is

 

If I'm not required to get a passport. why should I get one?

 

Unexpected circumstances can come up that make it impossible to return to the United States on the cruise ship. Here are some examples:

1. Illness or Injury – Depending on the severity of your illness or injury, you may have to be admitted to a local hospital overseas. If you cannot be discharged before the cruise ship is scheduled to depart, the cruise ship may leave without you. In this case, you would need a U.S. passport to fly home upon clearance from your doctor.
2. Damage to cruise ship – Occasionally cruise ships are damaged or have mechanical issues that cannot be fixed during your trip. In these cases, you might need to go ashore in a country which requires a passport and/or you would need a U.S passport book to fly home.

 

Cruisers on closed-loop cruises should pay attention.  They know of what they speak!

 

Secondly, since many of the participants in this thread travel far and wide I thought they might find it useful if they didn't know that the information existed.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by capriccio

[ducklite]

14 hours ago, clo said:

Who will issue them? If there a consulate in every cruise port?More details please.

As I mentioned, in certain dire medical emergencies they will allow the medivaced person to enter the US straight to the hospital without a passport.  This typically involved airlift by the USCG or brought in by air ambulance and then transferred immediately to the hospital by helo or waiting ambulance.  They can not be accompanied by a passport-less person, even if they are a minor.  It is considered a humanitarian entry and the hospital works with the DOS to obtain a retroactive passport for the person.  This is only in the case of the most urgent medical emergencies and doesn't cover for things like a death in the family, house burned down, etc.

[ducklite]

19 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean they "shouldn't". And as I've said before if the "typical traveler" waited until everything lined up just right before taking a trip the travel industry would collapse. 

It wouldn't collapse, it would change.  Remember what happened when the economy collapsed in 2008?   That's what it would look like.  The world is becoming over touristed by people who aren't contributing economically to the places they travel to.  Many places base their entire economy on tourism, and that's not a healthy thing.

[ducklite]

19 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

There is a difference between the US State Department, St Maarten and Carnival creating an one time means to return 4000 guests to the US and a single family who ignored best practices and is out of the US without a passport.  Give us one example of a solo cruiser or family was exempt from obtaining an emergency passport to return by air to the US?

Whether you want to believe it or not, it does happen.  It doesn't always make the news, but it does happen.  Not often and only under the most dire circumstances, but it does happen.

[ducklite]

19 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

It's not Canadian Border Officials releasing US citizens anywhere, when you enter the US you are dealing with Customs and Border Protection. You are right, the folks in the terminal are only verifying names but CBP does verify everyone's documents while the cruise is ongoing.

And that's how they end up arresting people with active warrants as they stop off the ship in Port Canaveral.  Happens about once a year and it's great comedy around here when it happens.  Sorry not sorry.

[ducklite]

14 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

 No there is not a consulate in every port. If you are on cruise contact the cruise line port agent for help. There are embassies or consulates in most countries or they have another representative in a country without those that represents US interests. The nearest consulate to Cozumel is in Merida. Also you can call the US consular service at +1 202-501-4444 and ask for what to do. Emergency Passports are issued all the time. 

A friend lost her passport while traveling in Italy a couple years ago.  She had to travel to the nearest consulate which was about three hours away by bus to get a new passport issued.

[ducklite]

4 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Part of the US Consular Service's job is to get US citizens home when they need help and they don't distinguish between the "wise" and the "foolish".

Actually it is to assist them in getting themselves home, but it is not obligated to get them home. The traveler needs to have their own funds to buy a passport, pay for transportation, and pay for medical/legal bills and incidentals.  The embassy/consulate just helps facilitate paperwork.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, ducklite said:

A friend lost her passport while traveling in Italy a couple years ago.  She had to travel to the nearest consulate which was about three hours away by bus to get a new passport issued.

Yep, that is the way it normally works.  It does become more difficult in the Caribbean when the nearest Consulate can be hundreds of miles distant on another island.  If I lost my Passport here in Mexico I would have to take a bus about  five hours one-way, spend 1 or 2 nights in a local Guadalajara hotel, and then take another 5+ hour bus ride back to Puerto Vallarta.  Somebody else posted that it is the US Consuls job to get folks home, but that is not completely true.  It is just one of many jobs and a pretty low priority unless it involves a medical emergency.  You have to consider that in our part of Mexico there can often  be more then thirty thousand Americans in a region controlled by a single Consulate office about  hours away.  When you have a problem that needs consulate assistance you are likely going to find yourself way back in the queue behind many others including lots of expats.

 

But here is the little fact often not mentioned by some folks here on CC.  While you are waiting for consulate assistance it is all at your expense.  A few hundred dollars for Passports might actually seem like a bargain when compared to what it can cost you in transportation, housing, food, etc.  while you are cooling your heels waiting for help and documents.

 

A lifetime of extensive international travel has taught me a very basic rule.  "Expect the best, but plan for the worst."

 

Hank

[mayleeman]

@Hlitner Than you for discussing the details involved. That is my problem with the "don't need it, just assess the risks" advice--people reading that don't get the nitty gritty details of what might be entailed in a problem situation. I know you have sailed all over, and I would guess your post is the fruit of conversations with many people.

[ldubs]

All of the debate aside, I am a little disappointed that a US authority would not provide assistance, if it is even true.  A kid traveling on a cruise ship with a BC is fairly common.  The authority would know this as well as we do.   Kid gets seriously sick, they should have jumped in to help.  Again, assuming what we read is even factual.  

[sparks1093]

3 hours ago, capriccio said:

 

My comment was meant to be generally helpful to any traveler.  First, some of the information does. When the State Department website has an entire section entitled Cruise Ship Passengers with the first question and answer is

 

I am taking a cruise.  Do I need a passport?

 

We recommend that everyone taking a cruise from the United States have a passport book. Though some “closed-loop” cruises may not require a U.S. passport, we recommend bringing yours in case of an emergency, such as an unexpected medical air evacuation or the ship docking at an alternate port. Also, your cruise company may require you to have a passport, even if U.S. Customs and Border Protection does not.

 

and the third question and answer is

 

If I'm not required to get a passport. why should I get one?

 

Unexpected circumstances can come up that make it impossible to return to the United States on the cruise ship. Here are some examples:

1. Illness or Injury – Depending on the severity of your illness or injury, you may have to be admitted to a local hospital overseas. If you cannot be discharged before the cruise ship is scheduled to depart, the cruise ship may leave without you. In this case, you would need a U.S. passport to fly home upon clearance from your doctor.
2. Damage to cruise ship – Occasionally cruise ships are damaged or have mechanical issues that cannot be fixed during your trip. In these cases, you might need to go ashore in a country which requires a passport and/or you would need a U.S passport book to fly home.

 

Cruisers on closed-loop cruises should pay attention.  They know of what they speak!

 

Secondly, since many of the participants in this thread travel far and wide I thought they might find it useful if they didn't know that the information existed.

 

 

Of course they recommend passports, it's their business to sell them and it does make their job easier if everyone has passports. As for answer number 2 experience tells otherwise for when a ship was damaged and passengers needed to disembark.

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, ducklite said:

It wouldn't collapse, it would change.  Remember what happened when the economy collapsed in 2008?   That's what it would look like.  The world is becoming over touristed by people who aren't contributing economically to the places they travel to.  Many places base their entire economy on tourism, and that's not a healthy thing.

If half of the current travelers stopped traveling because everything wasn't just right it would take a lot of adjusting. 

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, ducklite said:

  The embassy/consulate just helps facilitate paperwork.

Yes, and it's that part I was referring to as their job. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by sparks1093

[capriccio]

1 minute ago, sparks1093 said:

Of course they recommend passports, it's their business to sell them and it does make their job easier if everyone has passports. As for answer number 2 experience tells otherwise for when a ship was damaged and passengers needed to disembark.

 

There is no profit motif in their 'business.'  Consular fees, including passport fees, fund the Bureau of Consular Affairs (and not just because they say so; I worked with the State Department accounting system for over 15 years and know so):

 

CA is also the Department’s largest Bureau in terms of domestic personnel and is almost entirely funded through revenue generated by consular fees. This revenue totaled $4.16 billion in 2015, making CA the equivalent of a Fortune 600 company. (https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/about-us.html)

 

In addition to making their 'job easier', it helps travelers avoid problems in the first place or makes solutions to problems easier.  A win win for both!

 

 

[clo]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Somebody else posted that it is the US Consuls job to get folks home,

I'd love for someone to give a link to a govt. thread that actually says this. I'm doubtful.

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Yep, that is the way it normally works.  It does become more difficult in the Caribbean when the nearest Consulate can be hundreds of miles distant on another island.  If I lost my Passport here in Mexico I would have to take a bus about  five hours one-way, spend 1 or 2 nights in a local Guadalajara hotel, and then take another 5+ hour bus ride back to Puerto Vallarta.  Somebody else posted that it is the US Consuls job to get folks home, but that is not completely true.  It is just one of many jobs and a pretty low priority unless it involves a medical emergency.  You have to consider that in our part of Mexico there can often  be more then thirty thousand Americans in a region controlled by a single Consulate office about  hours away.  When you have a problem that needs consulate assistance you are likely going to find yourself way back in the queue behind many others including lots of expats.

 

But here is the little fact often not mentioned by some folks here on CC.  While you are waiting for consulate assistance it is all at your expense.  A few hundred dollars for Passports might actually seem like a bargain when compared to what it can cost you in transportation, housing, food, etc.  while you are cooling your heels waiting for help and documents.

 

A lifetime of extensive international travel has taught me a very basic rule.  "Expect the best, but plan for the worst."

 

Hank

As for the expense having a passport might minimize some of it but leaving a cruise halfway through is going to cost money and to me that's a better argument for good travel insurance. And the travel you mention is different than someone traveling on a closed loop cruise. When we fly off to Germany in April we're going to be on our own and there are no exceptions that I'm aware of in returning so if something did happen to our passports we will have to travel somewhere to get them. As a part-time resident of Mexico you are also in a situation different from someone traveling on a closed loop cruise. Someone on a closed loop cruise has a company that can attest to who they are and why they are leaving the ship, and CBP has all of their information on file from the ship's manifest. If it is such a nightmare to get back from a port with no State Department presence I expect that we would have read of it by now, the regulations went into affect in 2009. The news loves those nightmare travel stories and would jump at the chance to publish one (as in the news account that started this thread). However if a US citizen leaves a ship and is flown home with minimal delay, well, that's boring as heck and no one wants to publish those stories. As I've said the regulations do contain provisions that allow the authorities to waive the passport requirement and I don't think that language would have been included if they didn't mean it. Of course if anyone is in doubt as to the government's ability to get them home they should obtain a passport.

[sparks1093]

3 minutes ago, capriccio said:

 

There is no profit motif in their 'business.'  Consular fees, including passport fees, fund the Bureau of Consular Affairs (and not just because they say so; I worked with the State Department accounting system for over 15 years and know so):

 

CA is also the Department’s largest Bureau in terms of domestic personnel and is almost entirely funded through revenue generated by consular fees. This revenue totaled $4.16 billion in 2015, making CA the equivalent of a Fortune 600 company. (https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/about-us.html)

 

In addition to making their 'job easier', it helps travelers avoid problems in the first place or makes solutions to problems easier.  A win win for both!

 

 

Yes, I am aware that they are funded by the fees they take in and if they sell no passports they take in no fees. 

[sparks1093]

16 minutes ago, ldubs said:

All of the debate aside, I am a little disappointed that a US authority would not provide assistance, if it is even true.  A kid traveling on a cruise ship with a BC is fairly common.  The authority would know this as well as we do.   Kid gets seriously sick, they should have jumped in to help.  Again, assuming what we read is even factual.  

They would provide the assistance in an emergency. Since the child was being treated on the ship and allowed to remain on the ship it wasn't an emergency. (I do have to wonder though where the family would have come up with the air fare if they didn't have the $6000 needed for the care provided.)

[ldubs]

3 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

They would provide the assistance in an emergency. Since the child was being treated on the ship and allowed to remain on the ship it wasn't an emergency. (I do have to wonder though where the family would have come up with the air fare if they didn't have the $6000 needed for the care provided.)

 

That sure makes sense to me than the claim they were stranded because of no passport.   

[sparks1093]

18 minutes ago, clo said:

I'd love for someone to give a link to a govt. thread that actually says this. I'm doubtful.

Here's one link from their archive, third sentence covers it. https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/8525.htm

And here is one from their current website https://www.state.gov/key-topics-bureau-of-consular-affairs/ and the section Overseas Citizen Services covers it. Of course they provide services all over the world and their main focus is on that, not on closed loop cruise travel.

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by sparks1093