Just dispute the charge already!

[Waquoit]

For this post, I label will facts and opinion accordingly:

 

FACTS:

On 4/14/20 I called AMEX and told them I would like to dispute a charge The entire process took less than 5 minutes. I told them that I initiated the NCL refund process and I found it to be unreasonable. Two days later I received a secure message that said:

We're writing to let you know that, as a result of our investigation, we've credited your account for $4,xxx.xx, which will appear on your next statement.

It's important to know that we may accept the response from Usd Reservation at a later date and review the information they provide. In these situations, we may rebill your account. If that happens, we'll be sure to let you know immediately. If you don't hear from us by 06/24/2020, then you may consider this matter closed.

 

OPINION:

Now some may be put off by that second part. I'm not. For one, I disputed a charge of just $80 a few years back (Ticketmaster billed me twice) and they did not refund my money before the investigation was complete. I forgot how long it took but it was long enough that it had slipped my mind and seeing the eventual credit was a happy surprise. Here, they refunded my in full in just two days. AMEX knows what going on here and I don't see any response from NCL that will cause me to get charged back. Are they going to say they want my money back just so they can hold on to it for another couple of months? I can't see that working.

 

Now why did they refund the money so fast? I'm thinking AMEX is thinking that with a fresh $4K to play with, I'll be using my AMEX card much more over the next 90 days than if NCL was still holding MY money. And they'd be right. Again, I'll be surprised if other CC companies do not have a similar policy for cancelled cruises. 

 

The disinformation on this board is incredible. Nevermind the lost souls that think making an electronic refund is akin to splitting the atom,  I had someone tell me directly that AMEX was going to make me wait the 90 days. Then there's that guy that keeps saying that initiating a dispute is accusing the merchant of a crime. Don't let this nonsense dissuade you.

 

BOTTOM LINE:

Do it! It's a free roll! If your CC company doesn't play ball, you aren't out anything. And if they do, you jump to the head of the refund queue and get YOUR money back before they go out of business.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Waquoit

[MechE31]

The issue with this for a lot of people is the deposits. My deposit was paid in 2018. For those that make incremental payments, some may be outside the dispute window.

[pokerpro5]

1 minute ago, MechE31 said:

The issue with this for a lot of people is the deposits. My deposit was paid in 2018. For those that make incremental payments, some may be outside the dispute window.

 

It's not.  When you're paying for a future service, the clock starts ticking on the expected date of the service.  Go charge it back.

[pokerpro5]

Waquoit (original poster) is correct.

 

Charging back IS a freeroll.  You have nothing to lose.  It's 100% legal.  And it's very ethical, since this is YOUR money.

 

It is true that Amex gave him conditional approval and an instant refund, which they noted they could claw back if they determine that he's in the wrong.  However, it is likely he will prevail and will never see the money be taken back.  A cruise line cannot say, "We're gonna give it back, the customer just needs to wait 90 days".  That's considered an excessive wait time for refunds, and they will lose.

 

I went through this with an airline in 2014.  I was quoted 12 weeks for a refund (84 days), and I charged it back because I felt it was excessive.  I was credited the money instantly like Waquoit was, and nothing further ever happened.

 

By the way, for you to lose the chargeback , NCL would have to respond and dispute it, PLUS be convincing enough to the credit card company to beat you.  They do not have time for this, nor do they likely have the staff to handle the huge influx of chargebacks.  My guess is that they will just cross the chargebackers off the list of refunds, and consider them done.

 

Either way, this is the right play.

Edited April 16, 2020 by pokerpro5

[SeaShark]

6 minutes ago, pokerpro5 said:

 A cruise line cannot say, "We're gonna give it back, the customer just needs to wait 90 days".  That's considered an excessive wait time for refunds, and they will lose.

 

Out of curiosity...I'll give you that 90 days is an excessive wait time. So, what wait time would have been acceptable...specifically, how many days would you accept without the need for a fraud chargeback?

[pokerpro5]

Just now, SeaShark said:

 

Out of curiosity...I'll give you that 90 days is an excessive wait time. So, what wait time would have been acceptable...specifically, how many days would you accept without the need for a fraud chargeback?

 

21.  Which is three weeks.  That's more than enough time.

 

I could understand the argument for 30 days being the cutoff.  Anything beyond that is insane.

[Trousersandrie]

1 minute ago, SeaShark said:

 

Out of curiosity...I'll give you that 90 days is an excessive wait time. So, what wait time would have been acceptable...specifically, how many days would you accept without the need for a fraud chargeback?

It is not Fraud, it’s your money, any merchant must have reasonable refund term, unreasonable terminology ie 90 days isn’t reasonable it’s robbery.

[Waquoit]

17 minutes ago, SeaShark said:

specifically, how many days would you accept without the need for a fraud chargeback?

Who is calling it a fraud chargeback besides you?

[sanger727]

I'm not disagreeing with your experience. However, I wouldn't put too much into the idea that they already gave you a "refund". I've never had a dispute where I wasn't issued a temporary credit quickly that would be resolved either in my favor or not in my favor through investigation. I have also seen a posting on here from someone else (I believe it was Amex) who denied the dispute due to the fact that a refund was in process. It seems that it can go either way. I am very impressed however that you got through to Amex via phone in 5 minutes. I had an issue with a charge recently (nothing travel related) and the phone system quoted me over an hour wait time the few times I tried to call on it. 

[SeaShark]

31 minutes ago, pokerpro5 said:

 

21.  Which is three weeks.  That's more than enough time.

 

I could understand the argument for 30 days being the cutoff.  Anything beyond that is insane.

 

OK...then let's take the discussion to its reasonable conclusion. Since we are basically just drawing a line in the sand (in this case 21 days)...Why is 20 days acceptable and 22 days is not? Why do you "understand the argument for 30 days", yet 31 days is "insane"? What exactly happens at that cutoff to change the perception?

 

Also...the OP reported that AMEX gave them a 6/24/2020 date. That is 70 days after the filing of the complaint. 70 days. Not 21, not 30...70 days. Being that 70 is waaaaay beyond 30, would you also take the stance that AMEX's timeline is "insane"?

 

FWIW, as some people here just won't get it, I am just trying to demonstrate the problem with arbitrary timelines. This includes NCL, btw. Why 90 days? Why not 89? What happens between day 89 when you can't refund and day 90 when you can?

 

Anytime you create a fixed cutoff, you have to be able to justify its placement. 

[Liljo22]

1 hour ago, pokerpro5 said:

A cruise line cannot say, "We're gonna give it back, the customer just needs to wait 90 days".  That's considered an excessive wait time for refunds, and they will lose.

 

Actually that is not true.  The Fair Credit Billing act gives merchants 90 days to refund a credit card once they acknowledge a refund is due.  

 

And it actually is really easy for a merchant to answer to an Amex chargeback.  You log into the Amex merchant services portal and they would just need to upload the refund policy.  Amex actually pulls the money back from the merchant right away so NCL will be more inclined to answer the chargeback quickly.  Visa and Mastercard do not pull funds back from the merchant until a decision is made.  

Edited April 16, 2020 by Liljo22

[ellasmomanddad]

Amex would rather have you get your money back immediately in the hopes you book thru there travel section the next time. It’s good business practice on there apart. Just curious how did they handle the points earned? Was it subtracted immediately?

[Waquoit]

21 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

I have also seen a posting on here from someone else (I believe it was Amex) who denied the dispute due to the fact that a refund was in process. It seems that it can go either way.

 

This is how bad information gets disseminated. Someone who doesn't know what they are talking about repeating bad information acquired from someone else who didn't know what they were talking about. How the heck does it "seem(s) like it could go either way"?  

 

Stuff like the above is why I made my OP. I am telling folks here what actually happened to me, not a 3rd-hand tale.

 

[G-DawgMN]

10 minutes ago, Waquoit said:

 

This is how bad information gets disseminated. Someone who doesn't know what they are talking about repeating bad information acquired from someone else who didn't know what they were talking about. How the heck does it "seem(s) like it could go either way"?  

 

Stuff like the above is why I made my OP. I am telling folks here what actually happened to me, not a 3rd-hand tale.

 

 Please report back on what happens either way so there's a firsthand account of your experience.

 

 

[sanger727]

19 minutes ago, Waquoit said:

 

This is how bad information gets disseminated. Someone who doesn't know what they are talking about repeating bad information acquired from someone else who didn't know what they were talking about. How the heck does it "seem(s) like it could go either way"?  

 

Stuff like the above is why I made my OP. I am telling folks here what actually happened to me, not a 3rd-hand tale.

 

 

News flash. Just because something was your experience doesn't mean that it's everyone's experience. I wouldn't begin to dispute the facts of your experience. There's no reason for you to dispute the fact's of someone else's experience.

 

How could it go either way? Because you issue was resolved by the vendor. Just because you don't like the terms doesn't make the resolution invalid. Why would the credit card company do a charge back when a refund is in process?

[NittanyCruise]

If this works, I would expect NCL to add you to the "Do Not Sail" list and not allow you to sail with them again. It's happened before... https://www.elliott.org/blog/do-not-sail-list-banned-from-cruising/

 

Not saying that you're already planning on doing that, but I figured someone should say it just in case someone does this inadvertently and plans to use NCL in the future. 

[Waquoit]

2 minutes ago, KSSS2013 said:

 Please report back on what happens either way so there's a firsthand account of your experience.

 

Will do. The AMEX note said "If you don't hear from us by 06/24/2020, then you may consider this matter closed." 

I will post any updates as they happen.

 

[susanf31]

"If  you don't hear back from us by 6/24..."

 

6/24 is exactly 90 days from when most of us submitted the Refund Request Form back on 3/23. So it's still the same 90 day wait. 

 

 

 

[Waquoit]

2 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

News flash. Just because something was your experience doesn't mean that it's everyone's experience. I wouldn't begin to dispute the facts of your experience. There's no reason for you to dispute the fact's of someone else's experience.

 

How could it go either way? Because you issue was resolved by the vendor. Just because you don't like the terms doesn't make the resolution invalid. Why would the credit card company do a charge back when a refund is in process?

 

I wasn't disputing someone's experience. I was disputing someone else's hearsay about the experience presented as fact. Big difference.

 

And by asking me "Why would the credit card company do a charge back when a refund is in process?", aren't you disputing the facts of my experience? (Hint:Yes) I don't know why AMEX did it, I just know they did it. I reported it here to help others who wanted to know more about their options. Isn't that why this board exists? I made a guess about the why in my OP,  if you really care that much you can call them yourself.

 

[Waquoit]

8 minutes ago, susanf31 said:

"If  you don't hear back from us by 6/24..."

6/24 is exactly 90 days from when most of us submitted the Refund Request Form back on 3/23. So it's still the same 90 day wait. 

 

But I'm not waiting for my money! 

 

ADD: And I was in the 2nd batch that started on 4/13! You could have been whole by the end March!

Edited April 16, 2020 by Waquoit

[BirdTravels]

2 hours ago, Waquoit said:

BOTTOM LINE:

Do it! It's a free roll! If your CC company doesn't play ball, you aren't out anything. And if they do, you jump to the head of the refund queue and get YOUR money back before they go out of business.

Bottom line is considered a frivolous chargeback. A chargeback accuses the merchant (NCL) of a fraudulent charge. You are, in fact, committing fraud because NCL has, in writing at time of refund request, promised to repay you in a specified timeframe. 

 

NCL can and has blacklisted people for frivolous chargebacks. You may say "that's o.k., I never want to sail on NCL again"... but forever is a long time to be blacklisted.

 

Your bank is now taking time and expense to investigate the claim. Your bank, finding out that it is a frivolous chargeback, may consider you a risk. And may consider terminating or downgrading your account. Forever is a long time. 

 

It is NOT a free roll. The roll could come with consequences just to get your refund a few weeks earlier. 

[sanger727]

9 minutes ago, Waquoit said:

 

And by asking me "Why would the credit card company do a charge back when a refund is in process?", aren't you disputing the facts of my experience? (Hint:Yes)

 

 

No. Your experience is that you filed a dispute and they issued you a temporary credit and it will be solved by 6/24. Not disputing that. Actually pretty standard practice.

 

You asked why a dispute could go either way for someone in general terms, and I answered that in general terms. And gave anecdotal evidence (yes, hearsay, but this isn't a court of law) that that may be the case for some people (again, not you and not disputing your experience. although, in all fairness your experience is being issued a temporary credit, not winning a dispute). 

[ziggyuk]

My experience has varied by Credit Card provider. With my VISA MBNA card (owned now by Lloyds) I was recently told I needed to write to the company and give them 14 days to pay, a kind of "letter before action", once I could document I have done this they would start the chargeback.

[Waquoit]

3 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

Bottom line is considered a frivolous chargeback. A chargeback accuses the merchant (NCL) of a fraudulent charge. You are, in fact, committing fraud because NCL has, in writing at time of refund request, promised to repay you in a specified timeframe. 

 

NCL can and has blacklisted people for frivolous chargebacks. You may say "that's o.k., I never want to sail on NCL again"... but forever is a long time to be blacklisted.

 

Your bank is now taking time and expense to investigate the claim. Your bank, finding out that it is a frivolous chargeback, may consider you a risk. And may consider terminating or downgrading your account. Forever is a long time. 

 

It is NOT a free roll. The roll could come with consequences just to get your refund a few weeks earlier. 

You must work for NCL, you entire post wreaks of phony piety and the type of misinformation I am railing against. If I am committing "fraud", I have AMEX right there next to me. I told them about the 90 day plan refund plan up front. The only question they asked me is "Is this charge for a cruise that has been cancelled?" I said yes and gave them the date of the cancellation.  There is no way I was the first AMEX customer to enter a dispute concerning a cancelled cruise. No doubt AMEX has already worked out their process to handle this situation. There is nothing to investigate; cruise cancelled - done!

 

And this threat in this context, "Your bank is now taking time and expense to investigate the claim. Your bank, finding out that it is a frivolous chargeback, may consider you a risk. And may consider terminating or downgrading your account. Forever is a long time. "  is nothing but nonsense to scare the rubes. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

 

And if I make the NCL "blacklist" so be it. Just as long as they don't put me on double secret probation.

 

BTW,  you gave yourself away with "the roll could come with consequences just to get your refund a few weeks earlier." That's an blatant example of bad faith. Ask 100 people how many weeks in a few, most would say 2 or 3. If it was one week, they would say 1. If it was 4 weeks they'd say a month. Nobody would consider 12 weeks, "a few".

 

 

[KateQ22003]

44 minutes ago, susanf31 said:

"If  you don't hear back from us by 6/24..."

 

6/24 is exactly 90 days from when most of us submitted the Refund Request Form back on 3/23. So it's still the same 90 day wait. 

 

 

 

No, because they already credited his account. He's got his money.