Just dispute the charge already!

[phillyguy31]

4 hours ago, KateQ22003 said:

Where do you get this stuff? This isn't how A/P works in a large company. They don't have a slate and an abacus to work with; they have technology. I gotta share these posts with my accounting department; they will get a kick out of what some people actually think they do.

I hate getting sicked into this but....I fully understand how technology works. I also understand that unless the system(software) was in place before this all happened it wasn't going to be modified now. It takes human effort to input your info that you placed on a form that was just created for this unusual happening verify you info is correct and then authorize the refund. I am sure your accounting dept when they get a invoice from a supplier just pay without verifying the invoice is legit. That is a human doing that not a computer.  If you are in retail does someone verify that the return that was made is correct or they just let it fly. Small cost items are normally let go because it costs more to verify than the item. In NCL's case we are talking 1500.00 to 15000.00 that is not chump change. After the verification yes it is automatic and probably batched, but again how many people do they have doing it and doing it at home probably.

[KateQ22003]

31 minutes ago, phillyguy31 said:

I hate getting sicked into this but....I fully understand how technology works. I also understand that unless the system(software) was in place before this all happened it wasn't going to be modified now. It takes human effort to input your info that you placed on a form that was just created for this unusual happening verify you info is correct and then authorize the refund. I am sure your accounting dept when they get a invoice from a supplier just pay without verifying the invoice is legit. That is a human doing that not a computer.  If you are in retail does someone verify that the return that was made is correct or they just let it fly. Small cost items are normally let go because it costs more to verify than the item. In NCL's case we are talking 1500.00 to 15000.00 that is not chump change. After the verification yes it is automatic and probably batched, but again how many people do they have doing it and doing it at home probably.

Do you REALLY think a company the size of NCL doesn't have a HUGE financial software package? I guarantee handling the kind of money they do that they have a very robust system. 

[phillyguy31]

15 minutes ago, KateQ22003 said:

Do you REALLY think a company the size of NCL doesn't have a HUGE financial software package? I guarantee handling the kind of money they do that they have a very robust system. 

Do you really believe there is no human intervention when issuing refunds. Of course they probably have huge finial packages but someone still has to approve the refunds.

[KateQ22003]

52 minutes ago, phillyguy31 said:

Do you really believe there is no human intervention when issuing refunds. Of course they probably have huge finial packages but someone still has to approve the refunds.

Of course there is some human intervention, but these systems are very powerful and very quick. Some on this board make it sound like the entries are done one at a time by a poor A/P clerk working all alone with a scratch pad and pencil.

Edited April 17, 2020 by KateQ22003

[DinaS]

AMEX is a much easier company to deal with when it comes to disputes if you are a long-time customer.  Other credit card companies aren't necessarily quite as lenient or as quick to offer a resolution.  They will usually resolve the issue, but not as seamlessly as AMEX.

 

Just my personal experience 🙂

 

[phillyguy31]

2 minutes ago, KateQ22003 said:

Of course there is some human intervention, but these systems are very powerful and very quick. Some on this board make it sound like the entries are done one at a time by a poor A/P clerk working all alone with a scratch pad and pencil.

If that is the way I made it sound I am sorry but "someone" has to approve every refund it isn't automatic, so even at 5 minutes a refund it isn't like 100,000 refunds can be done in seconds. The other issue is at which point in time will the credit card companies realize that these charge backs are taking time and money to resolve when they know that a refund is promised to the customer just not in the time frame the customer wants, don't believe the CC companies are on your side they make their money off of the fees from the retailers.

[mianmike]

4 hours ago, phillyguy31 said:

Do you really believe there is no human intervention when issuing refunds. Of course they probably have huge finial packages but someone still has to approve the refunds.

 

I have no idea how NCL processes refunds.  I do know, in "record time," they were able to pump out FCC "refunds" worth thousands of $ for all the canceled cruises.    Instead of crediting our two latitude numbers (FCC), credit my one credit card number that's tied to my payments.  I don't understand how there is a 90 day disparity between the two refunds. 

 

Well, I do understand, NCL does not have enough money to refund everyone.  

[LatinaInTexas]

Thank you OP for providing clearly understandable info. I was aware of this option but decided to wait 30 days to see how things were playing out and to gather info since it would be my first time disputing a charge. My cruise was cancelled 3/14 for a 3/21 sailing. I didnt understand or like having to wait 2 weeks to fill out a form for a refund and I certainly didnt like being asked to allow them 90 days to process my refund. They offered me no assurances or promises that I would ever receive my money. Since this was going to be my first sailing with NCL I had no history with them to put my trust in them. My CC was Chase and immediately after hitting the submit dispute button the charge was removed. Im not worried about any of the so called repercussions, at the end of the day I feel I did whats right for me. 

[julig22]

5 minutes ago, mianmike said:

 

I have no idea how NCL processes refunds.  I do know, in "record time," they were able to pump out FCC "refunds" worth thousands of $ for all the canceled cruises.    Instead of crediting our two latitude numbers (FCC), credit my one credit card number that's tied to my payments.  I don't understand how there is a 90 day disparity between the two refunds.

As a retired database developer, I can tell you that the process to pump out FCC is a much different (and easier) process than refunding your credit card.

 

While I also don't know for sure how NCL processes refunds, simply stated, how much you paid for your cruise, what you paid for, and who was on the reservation is simple to pull together. So a fairly simple data query with the right formulas and the FCC is calculated.  Very little human intervention involved.  And much less risk if they do make an error.

 

But your payment information is (hopefully anyway) stored in a different location and is encrypted - if it wasn't, there would be a high possibility of your credit card information getting hacked at any time (no disrespect to NCL employees, it could happen to anyone).  It's not just a matter of reversing transactions - some of which may have been made more than a year ago, some on accounts that are closed, payments on multiple cards.....  It's possible that cancellations do have to be manually requested and/or processed, simply because under normal circumstances they had the personnel available.

 

I'm not defending, just commenting on the technical processes involved.

[mianmike]

I have zero knowledge of the processes involved so I defer to your expertise.  It makes "NCL sense" that the process is antiquated. They don't make money off refunds so no need to improve the system.  If there was a way NCL could profit from issuing refunds they would have a streamlined process years ago.  From my layman's point of view a flat 90+ days seems excessive:  I had two cruises, four airline flights and five hotels booked.  Within 7 days I had received refunds from three of our four flights and all the hotels. 

 

 

[PATRLR]

1 hour ago, mianmike said:

Well, I do understand, NCL does not have enough money to refund everyone.  

 

I've read that they have arranged financing.  So, they effectively do, or could, have the money now.  

 

 

[BirdTravels]

1 hour ago, LatinaInTexas said:

Thank you OP for providing clearly understandable info. I was aware of this option but decided to wait 30 days to see how things were playing out and to gather info since it would be my first time disputing a charge. My cruise was cancelled 3/14 for a 3/21 sailing. I didnt understand or like having to wait 2 weeks to fill out a form for a refund and I certainly didnt like being asked to allow them 90 days to process my refund. They offered me no assurances or promises that I would ever receive my money. Since this was going to be my first sailing with NCL I had no history with them to put my trust in them. My CC was Chase and immediately after hitting the submit dispute button the charge was removed. Im not worried about any of the so called repercussions, at the end of the day I feel I did whats right for me. 

As long as you realize that the the by filling out the form and clicking "submit", you are agreeing to the terms of the refund. And by licking "submit" on the dispute button, you are committing fraud because you are telling Chase that the merchant (NCL) did not deliver on the agreement you made with them. 

[mianmike]

1 minute ago, PATRLR said:

 

I've read that they have arranged financing.  So, they effectively do, or could, have the money now.  

 

 

 

The only financing I've read about is the $1.55 billion line of credit.  Is there something new? 

[BirdTravels]

11 hours ago, PATRLR said:

You would never succeed in making the argument that clicking on the submit means one accepted their terms.  There was no explicit acknowledgement of terms on the web site so you are referring to an implicit acknowledgement/acceptance.  That would never hold up in common sense and of course never in a US court.

Have you clicked "submit" to request a refund?  I have. 

[PATRLR]

2 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

Have you clicked "submit" to request a refund?  I have. 

yes.

 

[PATRLR]

11 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

As long as you realize that the the by filling out the form and clicking "submit", you are agreeing to the terms of the refund. And by licking "submit" on the dispute button, you are committing fraud because you are telling Chase that the merchant (NCL) did not deliver on the agreement you made with them. 

Oh please.  You are not agreeing to anything.  You are requesting a refund because NCL said that is what you needed to do to get your money back.

Regarding what any of us told our banks, you have no idea what I told my bank.  I told them exactly what was going on and I told them I didn't want to wait the 90 days.   I never said NCL didn't deliver on this fictitious agreement you think I made with them.  Nor did I tell my bank NCL didn't do anything other than not deliver my cruise.

Keep saying we're committing fraud all you want.  We aren't.

[Até]

If anyone commits fraud it's the cruise lines.  What really matters was the refund policy at the time of the purchase, the cruise lines can't suddenly extend it when they want.  Even if they later change it on their website they are held to the policy at the time of the purchase and were responsible for making that refund policy clear before the purchase.  I've always seen/been told 7 to 10 days was the normal refund period. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Até

[Waquoit]

41 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

As long as you realize that the the by filling out the form and clicking "submit", you are agreeing to the terms of the refund. And by licking "submit" on the dispute button, you are committing fraud because you are telling Chase that the merchant (NCL) did not deliver on the agreement you made with them. 

 

Repeating something ad infinitum doesn't make it any less false.  Here is the only "term" on the form:  By submitting this form, I confirm that I am authorized to cancel the above reservation on behalf of all persons on the subject reservation, and I understand that the refund will be returned to the original form of payment.

 

I agree to that. Now pay me.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Waquoit

[mafig]

1 hour ago, BirdTravels said:

As long as you realize that the the by filling out the form and clicking "submit", you are agreeing to the terms of the refund. And by licking "submit" on the dispute button, you are committing fraud because you are telling Chase that the merchant (NCL) did not deliver on the agreement you made with them. 

 

Why?

Why are you continuing to post this?

Waquot (and others) have gotten their refunds and, I believe, want to help others do the same.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to want to prevent people from getting their money back. Or delay it.

 

Why?

[julig22]

33 minutes ago, mafig said:

Waquot (and others) have gotten their refunds and, I believe, want to help others do the same.

Incorrect.  A provisional or temporary credit to your cc is how a chargeback works.  It is not a refund.  It is a suspension of the purchase, so not included in your credit balance.

 

Now it is up to NCL to dispute, accept, or deny the chargebacks.  So far, nobody (including Waquoit) has posted that they actually had their dispute resolved in their favor.  They have received letters that say their case is either denied or is currently under review.

 

Nobody is trying to prevent people from getting their money back.  Do what you think is best.  Just know that there could be pitfalls if you choose to not deal with NCL.  Every situation is different, every credit card policy is different. 

 

BirdTravels is not incorrect.  Also, several weeks back there was a post from someone who claimed to be a judge who, if I remember correctly, stated that the NCL refund policy would hold up in court.  Not my fight, I have no dog in this one because I chose FCC for cruise #1, will wait 90 days for a refund on cruise #2, and only had CN deposits on cruise #3 and those have been returned.

[NCMtnBoys]

15 minutes ago, julig22 said:

...I will wait 90 days for a refund on cruise...

Same here. I would never dispute the charge with my credit card since 1) I agreed to the charge in the first place, 2) the cruise line did not purposely NOT provide the cruise, 3) they have offered a refund and, 4) the refund is in process.

 

The refund might not be on the timeline that I want, but they are refunding the money. There is no dispute - I wanted a refund and they agreed to it. I'll just have to wait longer than usual and I'll get it when I get it, even if it's 90 days. I would feel unethical if I circumvented the cruise lines' refund process and then contacted my credit card company, when there has already been an agreement made for a refund. 

[julig22]

For your reading amusement.  Oh, and one of the individuals (hint: not anyone promoting a chargeback) claims to have worked for AMEX - processing chargebacks.   Brings up a few additional considerations I've not seen mentioned before.

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2745963-credit-card-dispute/

 

[LatinaInTexas]

4 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

As long as you realize that the the by filling out the form and clicking "submit", you are agreeing to the terms of the refund. And by licking "submit" on the dispute button, you are committing fraud because you are telling Chase that the merchant (NCL) did not deliver on the agreement you made with them. 

Terms of the the refund?? Are you referring to the one single line that states Please allow 90 days for us to process your refund? Hardly terms, sounds more like they are ASKING me politely to provide them a courtesy which I not so politely declined.

[Outerdog]

The blacklist thing is silly. One example of it from a few years ago.  I would think all the lines have much, much more to worry about than maintaining an evil blacklist. Wanna blacklist me for a chargeback? Go ahead. I'm not really looking to jump on your Covid petri dish anytime soon anyway. The lines will need to beg for customers to return, not blacklist them. 

[PATRLR]

 

3 hours ago, julig22 said:

Incorrect.  A provisional or temporary credit to your cc is how a chargeback works.  It is not a refund.  It is a suspension of the purchase, so not included in your credit balance.

 

Call it what you want, later this month when I pay this month's credit card bill, I will be paying $X less than I would otherwise.  I'll put that $X into savings until I am ready to book another vacation.   I have the money now.  That's a refund as far as I am concerned.   (I get that there is a scenario where I may have to give it back. Fine, you win that point.  But, I still have my refund.)

 

3 hours ago, julig22 said:

BirdTravels is not incorrect.  

 

His insistence that those of us who are doing the charge back are committing a fraud is 100% incorrect.

 

His insistence that we are accusing NCL of fraud is 100% incorrect.

Edited April 18, 2020 by PATRLR