Would you cruise if Wearing a mask is mandatory?

[OceanCruise]

Why should healthy people have to wear masks just to make you feel safe? For those of you interested in the actual science, this NIH Study from this month involved 455 people and determined practically no spread of Covid from people who had Covid but were asymptomatic. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32405162/?fbclid=IwAR2q2NxWgFpKPLjqd-vKY7meWJ-pgGHb-CITNM8WoZ8lg8Ftc7dE1hN5iGU

 

Also, this link contains a list of recent research showing masks are not effective against influenza-like illnesses

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340570735_Masks_Don't_Work_A_review_of_science_relevant_to_COVID-19_social_policy

 

If masks work, why do we have to social distance? If social distance works, why do we have to wear masks? If masks and social distrancing work, why are many places still on lockdown? If masks work, why are they releasing prisoners from prisons instead of just giving them masks? If it is ok to be without a mask on a pool deck or restaurant, why can't I be with the very same people at another venue without a mask?

 

 

[goldfish65]

17 minutes ago, OceanCruise said:

Why should healthy people have to wear masks just to make you feel safe? For those of you interested in the actual science, this NIH Study from this month involved 455 people and determined practically no spread of Covid from people who had Covid but were asymptomatic. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32405162/?fbclid=IwAR2q2NxWgFpKPLjqd-vKY7meWJ-pgGHb-CITNM8WoZ8lg8Ftc7dE1hN5iGU

 

Also, this link contains a list of recent research showing masks are not effective against influenza-like illnesses

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340570735_Masks_Don't_Work_A_review_of_science_relevant_to_COVID-19_social_policy

 

If masks work, why do we have to social distance? If social distance works, why do we have to wear masks? If masks and social distrancing work, why are many places still on lockdown? If masks work, why are they releasing prisoners from prisons instead of just giving them masks? If it is ok to be without a mask on a pool deck or restaurant, why can't I be with the very same people at another venue without a mask?

 

 

Sadly, critical reasoning has been lost in our society. Instead, people are being conditioned to submit to authority.

[BecciBoo]

Ain't scared o' no virus, ain't scared o'no mask and ain't scared o'no cruise.....excuse me whilst I finish sewing my fashion statement masks..............................

[CRUISEFAN0001]

10 minutes ago, goldfish65 said:

Sadly, critical reasoning has been lost in our society. Instead, people are being conditioned to submit to authority.

...or to contrarian views for the sake of arguments...

[mworkman]

This week according to The WHO, if your healthy and not taking care of someone with COVID-19 you don't need to wear a mask. LOL  Tune in to next week flip flop on mask requirements brought to you by the World Health Orginization. 

 

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

[BecciBoo]

49 minutes ago, cured said:

 

 

Caveat: I am  immunocompromised, so I have a different viewpoint than those that are at a very low risk. 

I am also immunocompromised, 3 ways.....if you are concerned stay home, this virus is never going to stop us from cruising or doing practically anything we want to.  We follow the law, if it's not law...not.  We do wear the masks I have made, distance as much as possible but damn the torpedoes full speed ahead..........I have 10 to 15 good years left on my very short life, not gonna spend it indoors afraid to go anywhere....BTW, we live within an hour of that lake and I would never show up at a place like that, virus or no virus...in fact we stay pretty far away from folks on the ship too.  Not a problem.  The only crowded venue is the suite lounge or diamond lounge, guess the coupons are the way they will handle them.  Go get your drinks and go sit down as far away from others as you can get...again, no problem.

[UnorigionalName]

24 minutes ago, OceanCruise said:

 

If masks work, why do we have to social distance? If social distance works, why do we have to wear masks? If masks and social distrancing work, why are many places still on lockdown? If masks work, why are they releasing prisoners from prisons instead of just giving them masks? If it is ok to be without a mask on a pool deck or restaurant, why can't I be with the very same people at another venue without a mask?

 

 

 

Sigh, the answer is so elementary I always wonder if this line of thought is rhetorical and if I'm wasting my time.

 

It's like saying, if seatbelts work to decrease deaths, why do we need airbags? If airbags work to decrease deaths why do we need seatbelts? ergo, we need neither.

 

The goal is to get R0 < 1, from where it is now, somewhere between 3 and 10.  Social distancing alone obviously didn't work, why the disease blew up in march.  But maybe it worked a little.  Probably if we all lived normal lives, then it would have spread even faster.  So the initial social distancing maybe helped a few points like say from 6->5.  Lets say shutting down large gatherings and festivals helps a little.  Let's say that shutting down other known large areas of transmission helps (work offices, churches, restaurants).  Then maybe masks help a little more.  The goal is to first to make sure that the number of cases are decreasing, like in NY, where it is rapidly dropping.

 

And then the second question is, are we going to be able to live semi-normal lives before a vaccine?  We can't go back to super normal, because that was what it was like when it blew up in march and people wouldn't put up with it.  But maybe if everyone wore masks, you can prevent enough spread to say, open up restaurants and and retail stores and keep R0 < 1 still.  Wouldn't that be a worthwhile trade?

 

Do masks work? who knows. maybe?  The thing is when you are talking about restricting civil liberties, masks is just about the most benign thing possible.  If it even has even the slightest chance of saving a few lives, then it is worth it.  That's why it is being pushed so hard.  It's a lot better than closing businesses.

 

There is too much confusion around masks, which the CDC contributed to greatly.  In the early days of the pandemic, there was worry about people stockpiling N95 masks so they wanted to prevent a run on them.  There wasn't ever really a significant shortage of surgical masks.  Even now it's surprising how many people still confuse n95 and surgical masks.  I think there was worry that if they told everyone to wear masks before securing all the supplies of n95, then the few n95's available wouldn't be distributed to those who needed it the most.  Now that all the n95s are gone and spoken for, there isn't that worry anymore.

 

Admittedly, there is not much known as to the effects, but to say they are worthless is also premature.  If it turns out to be worthless, what did you lose? like $5 and some discomfort? If it turns out to save a couple even dozen lives, I say that that tradeoff was worth it.

 

I also find it pathetic that the demographic of those who don't want to wear masks overlap with those who claim to be Christian.  Who is your neighbor? What is loving your neighbor?

[BecciBoo]

1 hour ago, pcur said:

I read an interesting article recently, and if I felt like rummaging around I could find it again.  It was on Forbes.com, and a research lab tested different cloth materials to see how effective they were againt COVID19 spread.  Interestingly, it seems what I decided to make ours out of came in as top for slowing down the little beastie-droplets:  tightly woven cotton, double layered.

 

Mr. Pcur donated his old tee shirt for the cause (he hoards tee shirts, so it wasn't much of a sacrifice), and now we have these soft, comfy, double layered masks to wear that get dumped into the washer as soon as we walk in the door.

 

I protect you; you protect me.

Same here, made mine out of cotton poplin 2 layers with a slit so you can still put a charcoal layer in if you want.  I'm making some cruise worthy ones now, plam trees, sharks for Hubs...if I have to comply, I want to have fun with it.

[cured]

12 minutes ago, BecciBoo said:

I am also immunocompromised, 3 ways.....if you are concerned stay home, this virus is never going to stop us from cruising or doing practically anything we want to.  We follow the law, if it's not law...not.  We do wear the masks I have made, distance as much as possible but damn the torpedoes full speed ahead..........I have 10 to 15 good years left on my very short life, not gonna spend it indoors afraid to go anywhere....BTW, we live within an hour of that lake and I would never show up at a place like that, virus or no virus...in fact we stay pretty far away from folks on the ship too.  Not a problem.  The only crowded venue is the suite lounge or diamond lounge, guess the coupons are the way they will handle them.  Go get your drinks and go sit down as far away from others as you can get...again, no problem.

Thank you for the permission. 

 

And you are welcome. We will be one of those that cancel their cruise so that the ship can sail at less than capacity for those a bit more addicted to cruising than we are.

 

Have a great time on your cruises!  Hopefully there will be a vaccine and we will join you next summer as we have a cruise booked then.  Otherwise there are so many vacation options besides cruising. We like to vary our experiences. 

 

Hiking the beautiful western mountain ranges and back country camping as a vacation will need to suffice for us. Good thing we love it.  No need to stay inside.  

Edited May 29, 2020 by cured

[xpcdoojk]

1 hour ago, CRUISEFAN0001 said:

Hey...you dropped something... 🤣🤣🤣

 

If you can't even see the CDC and WHO agreeing on the validity, use, value, and effectiveness of masks...it ain't a gonna happen here either...

 

 

Except they don’t agree.  Seriously google the WHO and read what they say.  Don’t take my word for it.

 

Masks are fine when properly used.  Masks are dangerous, I am guessing the way many people are using them.  Unfortunately, we don’t which are which.

 

jc

[UnorigionalName]

1 hour ago, pcur said:

I read an interesting article recently, and if I felt like rummaging around I could find it again.  It was on Forbes.com, and a research lab tested different cloth materials to see how effective they were againt COVID19 spread.  Interestingly, it seems what I decided to make ours out of came in as top for slowing down the little beastie-droplets:  tightly woven cotton, double layered.

 

Mr. Pcur donated his old tee shirt for the cause (he hoards tee shirts, so it wasn't much of a sacrifice), and now we have these soft, comfy, double layered masks to wear that get dumped into the washer as soon as we walk in the door.

 

I protect you; you protect me.

 

I think you are thinking of:

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-diy-coronavirus-homemade-mask-material-covid/

 

While the intent is noble, I am a little amused at all the fervor over home made masks.

 

There is no shortage of surgical masks currently.  Surgical masks are superior.  The point of homemade masks was to tide you over until you got some surgical masks, or in case surgical masks ran out. 

[CRUISEFAN0001]

13 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

 

 

Except they don’t agree.  Seriously google the WHO and read what they say.  Don’t take my word for it.

 

Masks are fine when properly used.  Masks are dangerous, I am guessing the way many people are using them.  Unfortunately, we don’t which are which.

There is no published data about the use of a mask being "dangerous".

 

As for WHO...perhaps their participation (or lack thereof) in this whole pandemic situation is why they appear to be on the verge of losing U.S. funding.  Since cruise companies and others rely on "experts" to make decisions and craft safety procedures...a loss in faith of those kinds of organizations is a significant problem.

[OceanCruise]

13 minutes ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

Sigh, the answer is so elementary I always wonder if this line of thought is rhetorical and if I'm wasting my time.

 

It's like saying, if seatbelts work to decrease deaths, why do we need airbags? If airbags work to decrease deaths why do we need seatbelts? ergo, we need neither.

 

The goal is to get R0 < 1, from where it is now, somewhere between 3 and 10.  Social distancing alone obviously didn't work, why the disease blew up in march.  But maybe it worked a little.  Probably if we all lived normal lives, then it would have spread even faster.  So the initial social distancing maybe helped a few points like say from 6->5.  Lets say shutting down large gatherings and festivals helps a little.  Let's say that shutting down other known large areas of transmission helps (work offices, churches, restaurants).  Then maybe masks help a little more.  The goal is to first to make sure that the number of cases are decreasing, like in NY, where it is rapidly dropping.

 

And then the second question is, are we going to be able to live semi-normal lives before a vaccine?  We can't go back to super normal, because that was what it was like when it blew up in march and people wouldn't put up with it.  But maybe if everyone wore masks, you can prevent enough spread to say, open up restaurants and and retail stores and keep R0 < 1 still.  Wouldn't that be a worthwhile trade?

 

Do masks work? who knows. maybe?  The thing is when you are talking about restricting civil liberties, masks is just about the most benign thing possible.  If it even has even the slightest chance of saving a few lives, then it is worth it.  That's why it is being pushed so hard.  It's a lot better than closing businesses.

 

There is too much confusion around masks, which the CDC contributed to greatly.  In the early days of the pandemic, there was worry about people stockpiling N95 masks so they wanted to prevent a run on them.  There wasn't ever really a significant shortage of surgical masks.  Even now it's surprising how many people still confuse n95 and surgical masks.  I think there was worry that if they told everyone to wear masks before securing all the supplies of n95, then the few n95's available wouldn't be distributed to those who needed it the most.  Now that all the n95s are gone and spoken for, there isn't that worry anymore.

 

Admittedly, there is not much known as to the effects, but to say they are worthless is also premature.  If it turns out to be worthless, what did you lose? like $5 and some discomfort? If it turns out to save a couple even dozen lives, I say that that tradeoff was worth it.

 

I also find it pathetic that the demographic of those who don't want to wear masks overlap with those who claim to be Christian.  Who is your neighbor? What is loving your neighbor?

In case you didn't look at the actual scientific research I posted earlier, here is more research from the CDC that shows mitigation measures were not really effective .  I guess accusing people of not being a Christian isn't so Christian either. How about showing some actual scientific data to back up your claims instead.

PPE

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

 

Social distancing

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0995_article

 

International travel ban

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0995_article

[OceanCruise]

6 minutes ago, CRUISEFAN0001 said:

There is no published data about the use of a mask being "dangerous".

 

 

Yes there is  from NIH   https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00173017

[CRUISEFAN0001]

3 minutes ago, OceanCruise said:

Yes there is  from NIH   https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00173017

Interesting that this "opinion" piece is littered with the words "might" "could" and other speculative statements, in contrast to absolutes. If there was significant harm...they would insist on them not being used.

 

Looks like it's time to follow the NIH's own advice...get a second opinion... 

Edited May 29, 2020 by CRUISEFAN0001

[UnorigionalName]

9 minutes ago, OceanCruise said:

In case you didn't look at the actual scientific research I posted earlier, here is more research from the CDC that shows mitigation measures were not really effective .  I guess accusing people of not being a Christian isn't so Christian either. How about showing some actual scientific data to back up your claims instead.

PPE

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

 

Social distancing

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0995_article

 

International travel ban

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0995_article

 

Yeah, I have no idea what the WHO and CDC is doing anymore.  

 

There are easily found articles talking about potential benefits that were neglected to be cited in that review.  I don't know why they are cherry picking data.

 

MacIntyre, C. Raina, and Abrar Ahmad Chughtai. "Facemasks for the prevention of infection in healthcare and community settings." Bmj 350 (2015): h694.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1471-2334-12-26

 

Also, who cares if I'm Christian.  You should be more worried about what non-Christians think about the selfishness of so-called Christians.  Again, "who is your neighbor"  As to your other point though, I don't want to get into debating theology.  But If you do I would be gladly willing to chat in messages because that statement is pretty egregious to me.

[xpcdoojk]

There are tons of statements about how masks can be dangerous.  You are just ignoring the obvious.  If you touch the mask a lot to adjust or to pull it down to be understood, and then you touch your face, etc.  I don’t think we need a scientific study to know the obvious.  But I understand the need to create a reason for continuing to try feel like you are right, even when you are not.  That is an universal human trait.

 

jc

[CRUISEFAN0001]

4 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

There are tons of statements about how masks can be dangerous.  

Confusing statements with facts is an all-too-common practice in posts on this site.  Just another example.

Edited May 29, 2020 by CRUISEFAN0001

[OceanCruise]

It is not an opinion piece. People should read the actual scientific studies and draw their own conclusions based on the facts and use critical thinking rather than just doing something based on emotions. If you feel everyone should wear a mask, give us links to studies in scientific journals, NIH or CDC showing they are effective.

[CRUISEFAN0001]

4 minutes ago, OceanCruise said:

It is not an opinion piece. People should read the actual scientific studies and draw their own conclusions based on the facts and use critical thinking rather than just doing something based on emotions. If you feel everyone should wear a mask, give us links to studies in scientific journals, NIH or CDC showing they are effective.

Then again....since there are volumes of medical-community opposite views on that subject...there's no reason to assume the general public wouldn't also have different opinions.

 

Simple thoughts...if someone uses a mask...it has the potential to help. If they don't it has the potential to harm.

 

Those are the real alternatives to help make decisions.

Edited May 29, 2020 by CRUISEFAN0001

[xpcdoojk]

12 minutes ago, CRUISEFAN0001 said:

Confusing statements with facts is an all-too-common practice in posts on this site.  Just another example.

 

Wow...  good luck with that.

 

I surrender, you are right about everything.  My mama told me about people like you.

 

jc

[CRUISEFAN0001]

7 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

 

Wow...  good luck with that.

 

My mama told me about people like you.

Momma was smart! 🤣

[OceanCruise]

12 minutes ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

 

There are easily found articles talking about potential benefits that were neglected to be cited in that review.  I don't know why they are cherry picking data.

 

MacIntyre, C. Raina, and Abrar Ahmad Chughtai. "Facemasks for the prevention of infection in healthcare and community settings." Bmj 350 (2015): h694.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1471-2334-12-26

 

A

This is an interesting article you provided. However, it incorporated an increased handwashing regimen with the masks and could not rule out the effect of this increased handwashing which we know is very effective against the spread of germs. If a mask makes you less fearful I have no problem with you wearing one.  Also, the majority of Covid deaths were in nursing homes (NY, NJ, IL and I think MI) where the people were most vulnerable. Why did those governors keep nursing homes open and accept Covid patients but lockdown the schools instead where it is evident kids are at minimal risk for the virus based on statistics?

[Arzeena]

On 5/22/2020 at 7:18 AM, molly361 said:

I will vote no but then if they enforce that like they do other things I would hate to miss a cruise that ends up with no one wearing them even though required

I voted yes. (And I am used to/comfortable  wearing one, so have no problems)

Our front line heroes wear it all day long, so I am not going to complain about wearing one on a cruise if mandated.

[WAMarathoner]

On 5/23/2020 at 7:23 AM, Jimbo said:

Probably wouldn't be allowed to cruise then, you can bet that will be in the cruise contract you sign before sailing. Must wear mask. 

Interesting thought.  However, given the average age of cruisers, they'd be cutting off their noses to spite their face.

Some conditions that make wearing a mask difficult, at best include:

Congestive heart failure, more than 5% of people over 60

Asthma - 7.7% of adults

COPD - more than 16,000,000 adults

That's just the big three; there are many other conditions that make wearing a mask a bad idea.  Would cut out a significant number of cruisers in addition to those who don't want to wear them rather than can't wear them.

 

For the few ships that are registered in the US, this would also violate ADA requirements and open them up to hefty lawsuits.  Hmmm... if mandatory masks happens, maybe I'll just try to book a trip on the Pride.