Plain and Simple

[BermudaBound2014]

8 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

 I'm still a bit puzzled as to why a vaccine would be necessary in the future when MSC has had 1,000s of passengers since reopening in August with no outbreaks and no vaccines.

 

 I don't believe this is accurate. I am reasonably sure that the Grandiosa had positive cases onboard the October 7th sailing. Each guest received a letter stating such and requesting guests quarantine back home.

 

Of course, the European countries have much more lenient policies if Covid19 is detected onboard. I've said this more than once, but the CDC requirement that all guests use noncommercial transportation to return home from a ship that had Corona onboard is a huge obstacle for opening up the USA. That obstacle doesn't exist in Italy. Passengers simply debarked as scheduled (although Malta did refuse the Grandiosa entry). 

 

MSC was also scheduled to launch the Magnifica in Europe last month but had to cancel all her sailings until Mid December. MSC states they were cancelled due to new regulations put out by  Germany and France, but there is speculation that the Magnifica sailings were cancelled due to exceptionally low demand. 

 

I do agree that MSC has been reasonably successful,  but even they have not been able to sail 100% Covid free and  the CDC requirements for re-entry to the USA are much more intensive than those in Europe. Until ships can sail 100% covid free, I'm not certain lines are going to accept the cost liability. 

 

 

 

 

[DCGuy64]

12 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

 I don't believe this is accurate. I am reasonably sure that the Grandiosa had positive cases onboard the October 7th sailing. Each guest received a letter stating such and requesting guests quarantine back home.

 

Of course, the European countries have much more lenient policies if Covid19 is detected onboard. I've said this more than once, but the CDC requirement that all guests use noncommercial transportation to return home from a ship that had Corona onboard is a huge obstacle for opening up the USA. That obstacle doesn't exist in Italy. Passengers simply debarked as scheduled (although Malta did refuse the Grandiosa entry). 

 

MSC was also scheduled to launch the Magnifica in Europe last month but had to cancel all her sailings until Mid December. MSC states they were cancelled due to new regulations put out by  Germany and France, but there is speculation that the Magnifica sailings were cancelled due to exceptionally low demand. 

 

I do agree that MSC has been reasonably successful,  but even they have not been able to sail 100% Covid free and  the CDC requirements for re-entry to the USA are much more intensive than those in Europe. Until ships can sail 100% covid free, I'm not certain lines are going to accept the cost liability. 

 

 

 

 

I chose the word "outbreak" quite deliberately, because while it's possible that a few cases occurred, I didn't hear anything in the news about a major outbreak or a situation akin to what recently took place on the Sea Dream 1. And I was in contact with people on several of the sailings. In the world of 24/7 news cycles and social media, I guarantee that had there been a spike in COVID-19 cases attributable to an MSC cruise ship in Europe, we would have heard about it. Also, I doubt ANY place on earth will be 100% covid free, but that's no reason to shut down the cruise industry, or any industry, for that matter. (that's just my opinion, of course)

[Trimone]

Italy’s Latest COVID-19 

 

[DarkJedi]

PCR testing is currently set at 40 cycles. Normal testing for viruses is 27 cycles. We have a known issue with testing that results in a huge amount of false positives.

 

Then we have the media running around saying that you should not rely on a negative test because you may still have it and still be asymptomatic, and still not develop anti-bodies. Still not sure how all that works or what scientist says that is possible.

 

Then we have the common cold, the flu, and any other number of diseases that can be transmitted between people.

 

I say instead of mandating what the world should do in this case, maybe you should take personal responsibility and decide for yourself if you want to cruise, or travel at all. Even with accurate testing if you get tested a week before your cruise and then travel you can come in contact with it and be contagious right when getting on the ship.

 

Oh, and good luck with the new vaccine. SARS was discovered in 2003, SARS2 was discovered in 2019. We still don't have a vaccine for SARS that doesn't have long term negative effects. What makes you think they magically made a vaccine in 12 months for the cousin of SARS and know what long term effects it will have?

[MrsKC08]

18 hours ago, Travelicious said:

That your proud refusal to cooperate with requested contact tracing, and the rather common, selfish attitude which leads to such a refusal, is part of the problem that is causing this virus to spread unabated.  Contact tracing is not necessarily only to determine where you got the virus, but to notify others of possible exposure so that they can take precautions and not spread it to others.   

Hahaha. You totally missed my point. Contract tracing is a joke. The CDC has pretty much claimed that there is no real way of knowing WHERE you have picked up the virus. As for notifying others...they DO NOT do this, and this is put on the person who has tested positive. We know this first hand, as we have been around others who tested positive in the months that this has been around. 

[ziggyuk]

21 minutes ago, DarkJedi said:

PCR testing is currently set at 40 cycles. Normal testing for viruses is 27 cycles. We have a known issue with testing that results in a huge amount of false positives.

 

Then we have the media running around saying that you should not rely on a negative test because you may still have it and still be asymptomatic, and still not develop anti-bodies. Still not sure how all that works or what scientist says that is possible.

 

Then we have the common cold, the flu, and any other number of diseases that can be transmitted between people.

 

I say instead of mandating what the world should do in this case, maybe you should take personal responsibility and decide for yourself if you want to cruise, or travel at all. Even with accurate testing if you get tested a week before your cruise and then travel you can come in contact with it and be contagious right when getting on the ship.

 

Oh, and good luck with the new vaccine. SARS was discovered in 2003, SARS2 was discovered in 2019. We still don't have a vaccine for SARS that doesn't have long term negative effects. What makes you think they magically made a vaccine in 12 months for the cousin of SARS and know what long term effects it will have?

 

You are missing the point a full ship of people taking responsibility for their own health is not an option and won't be until this is over. Your CDC & other governments have made recommendations that must be followed.

 

You will be sailing with protocols, half empty ships, masks, ships excursions only etc etc.

If you are lucky the lines might argue they can go back to normal if they only accept vaccinated people. Small price to pay in my view.

 

Given the options I know how I want to sail when enough people have been vaccinated to fill ships.

 

[DarkJedi]

How am I missing the point?

 

These restrictions will destroy the cruise industry. I already had to rebook a cruise that was cancelled earlier this year. I was given a 10% extra credit against the price of the cruise.

 

The 10 day cruise is not being offered, and the 7 day cruise is 30% over the price I paid for the 10 day cruise.

 

If I also have to pay extortionist prices by being forced to do ship's only excursions I can guarantee we won't cruise again.

 

 

As for the virus? As I said, the majority of testing is done using PCR testing, which has created a HUGE amount of false positives.

 

The flu kills 30-60 thousand in the US each year. TB kills over a million each year worldwide.

 

Are you mandating that every person get tested for the flu and TB before cruising? At least those tests are accurate.

 

Oh, and again, feel free to be among the first to get vaccinated. They have been working on a vaccine for SARS-CoV since 2002 with limited success in animals and severe side effects in humans. They have been working on a vaccine for MERS-CoV since 2012 with the same results. They started work on a vaccine for SARS-CoV-2 in 2019, long term effects are completely unknown.

 

The plus side is if it causes sterility like the other vaccines sometimes do in human trials we will have population reduction.

[BermudaBound2014]

9 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

 Also, I doubt ANY place on earth will be 100% covid free, but that's no reason to shut down the cruise industry, or any industry, for that matter. (that's just my opinion, of course)

 

On this we agree. My Governor just shut down all restaurants again (among other things).The 'science' I choose to believe just doesn't support mass closings. My point was that it appears we can't keep Covid off the ships entirely and the CDC order places such huge financial strains on a cruise line should covid be detected, I've changed my stance about the possibility of setting sail from the USA before a) vaccine or b) herd immunity. Had Grandious been sailing from the USA when Covid was detected onboard it would have been a much different outcome. 

[PTC DAWG]

20 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

On this we agree. My Governor just shut down all restaurants again (among other things).The 'science' I choose to believe just doesn't support mass closings. My point was that it appears we can't keep Covid off the ships entirely and the CDC order places such huge financial strains on a cruise line should covid be detected, I've changed my stance about the possibility of setting sail from the USA before a) vaccine or b) herd immunity. Had Grandious been sailing from the USA when Covid was detected onboard it would have been a much different outcome. 

Your Gov is a nut. 

[ziggyuk]

43 minutes ago, DarkJedi said:

How am I missing the point?

These restrictions will destroy the cruise industry.

 

Yep agreed, lets get to vaccinated cruises without these restrictions you hate.

 

45 minutes ago, DarkJedi said:

The 10 day cruise is not being offered, and the 7 day cruise is 30% over the price I paid for the 10 day cruise.

 

Yep agreed, lets let the cuisse lines fill all the rooms with vaccinated customers so they can bring the prices down.

 

47 minutes ago, DarkJedi said:

As for the virus? As I said, the majority of testing is done using PCR testing, which has created a HUGE amount of false positives.

 

Yep agreed, lets do away with them, lets stop these protocols and only have vaccinated cruises.

 

49 minutes ago, DarkJedi said:

The flu kills 30-60 thousand in the US each year. TB kills over a million each year worldwide.

 

Ironically most of the west are vaccinated against TB, are there CDC cruising restrictions related to either flu or TB that are "destroying the industry" that I'm not aware of? Irrelevant.

 

52 minutes ago, DarkJedi said:

Are you mandating that every person get tested for the flu and TB before cruising? At least those tests are accurate.

 

Why? Are cruises being restricted as a result? Irrelevant.

 

54 minutes ago, DarkJedi said:

Oh, and again, feel free to be among the first to get vaccinated.

 

May have been already as I'm a test subject to help sort this mess out.

 

Lets see, did you miss the point? 😂😂😂😂

[boatseller]

On 11/16/2020 at 10:43 AM, oracer said:

You should not be allowed on a cruise ship UNTIL you have been tested and UNTIL you have proof of having taken the vaccine.   Also cruise ships should not be allowed to port unless they have a private island and all workers on that island have the same standards.   I can not see going to an island (Caribbean) unless they have the same standards, even escorted excursions.

 

I think the Barbados cruise ship showed that testing alone doesn't work.

No.  Everyone has a right to makes these decisions for themselves.  End of story.

 

The unnecessary overreaction to sc2 has caused far too much destruction.

[tallnthensome]

51 minutes ago, boatseller said:

No.  Everyone has a right to makes these decisions for themselves.  End of story.

The decision to get onto a cruise or into certain ports in regard to the vaccine will be their decision, not yours. The only decision you will make for yourself beforehand is if you get the vaccine or not. The lines will have final say if you get on board, not you. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by tallnthensome

[boatseller]

1 hour ago, tallnthensome said:

The decision to get onto a cruise or into certain ports in regard to the vaccine will be their decision, not yours. The only decision you will make for yourself beforehand is if you get the vaccine or not. The lines will have final say if you get on board, not you. 

As private entities they can do that, but will not because it represents huge liability issues.  Cruising in Europe has been essentially trouble free and the cruise lines have more incentive to make the protocols as uninvasive as possible.

It will take some time for the full list of contraindications for any vaccine to be known and until then, the lawyers will be examining every potential case.

[tallnthensome]

1 hour ago, boatseller said:

As private entities they can do that, but will not because it represents huge liability issues.  Cruising in Europe has been essentially trouble free and the cruise lines have more incentive to make the protocols as uninvasive as possible.

It will take some time for the full list of contraindications for any vaccine to be known and until then, the lawyers will be examining every potential case.

You’re wrong again, bro. You’ll be signing contracts and waivers to cruise that will get them out of any Covid vaccine liability. It will have been your choice to get the vaccination .... you can’t sue somebody and say “they made me do it” .  foreign cruise ports and countries may require it as well for entry of the ships and passengers  ..... Again , you’re wrong . 

[All-ready2cruise]

1 hour ago, boatseller said:

As private entities they can do that, but will not because it represents huge liability issues.  Cruising in Europe has been essentially trouble free and the cruise lines have more incentive to make the protocols as uninvasive as possible.

 

They will do it! They need to protect their crew and passengers.  The statement made by @tallnthensome is, IMO, accurate. Being noninvasive has nothing to do with this, a vaccine will, hopefully, protect the majority of crew and passengers. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by All-ready2cruise

[Trimone]

Ports of the world will not welcome none vaccinated tourists, countries are investing billions to kill Covid-19, imagine NCL turning up with 4000 passengers in Cannes then allow them to visit Monaco....

Its not going to happen...

 

[tallnthensome]

9 minutes ago, Trimone said:

Ports of the world will not welcome none vaccinated tourists, countries are investing billions to kill Covid-19, imagine NCL turning up with 4000 passengers in Cannes then allow them to visit Monaco....

Its not going to happen...

 

Correct 

[boatseller]

3 hours ago, tallnthensome said:

You’re wrong again, bro. You’ll be signing contracts and waivers to cruise that will get them out of any Covid vaccine liability. It will have been your choice to get the vaccination .... you can’t sue somebody and say “they made me do it” .  foreign cruise ports and countries may require it as well for entry of the ships and passengers  ..... Again , you’re wrong . 

Nope, doesn't work that way, sorry.  RCI is still dealing (I think, slow courts) with the lawsuit regarding the open windows in Independence.  This is despite the guardian pleading guilty.  There's also the suits against RCI and Carnival(?) over crew and covid.

 

In both cases, the cruise lines are 'right' but that doesn't stop the lawyers.  Also, Influenza is still far deadlier than covid and they do not require a vaccine for that.

 

Sadly, all this is based on the stupidity of chasing the wrong metric.  Since day 1, the number of cases is irrelevant as mortality is very low and confined to well knows cohorts.

 

Ports are a different story.  And the waiver list will be shockingly long. 

[tallnthensome]

18 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Nope, doesn't work that way, sorry.  RCI is still dealing (I think, slow courts) with the lawsuit regarding the open windows in Independence.  This is despite the guardian pleading guilty.  There's also the suits against RCI and Carnival(?) over crew and covid.

 

In both cases, the cruise lines are 'right' but that doesn't stop the lawyers.  Also, Influenza is still far deadlier than covid and they do not require a vaccine for that.

 

Sadly, all this is based on the stupidity of chasing the wrong metric.  Since day 1, the number of cases is irrelevant as mortality is very low and confined to well knows cohorts.

 

Ports are a different story.  And the waiver list will be shockingly long. 

Negligence in the open window case on RCCL and the original Covid cases back from March have nothing to do with choosing the be vaccinated looking forward  ..... Nothing . You’re wrong .... again. Not being vaccinated and allowed on board presents bigger costlier problems and the possibility of lawsuits more so ....

Edited November 20, 2020 by tallnthensome

[boatseller]

2 minutes ago, tallnthensome said:

Negligence in the open window case on RCCL and the original Covid cases back from March have nothing to do with choosing the be vaccinated looking forward  ..... Nothing . You’re wrong .... again. 

"In both cases, the cruise lines are 'right' but that doesn't stop the lawyers."

 

Sorry, not wrong.  There's also a lot of, let's call it baggage with the vaccine that the cruise lines don't want to deal with.

[tallnthensome]

4 minutes ago, boatseller said:

"In both cases, the cruise lines are 'right' but that doesn't stop the lawyers."

 

Sorry, not wrong.  There's also a lot of, let's call it baggage with the vaccine that the cruise lines don't want to deal with.

I never said anything would stop lawyers . I said getting a vaccine on your own and by your choice doesn’t warrant a lawsuit against a cruise line for your decision to have done so. You can’t sue someone (NCL)  and win because YOU got a vaccination unless maybe your the drug manufacturer. 

[Red-Sol]

2 hours ago, boatseller said:

Also, Influenza is still far deadlier than covid and they do not require a vaccine for that.

SMH.... I wouldn't know where to even begin with this.

[boatseller]

1 hour ago, Red-Sol said:

SMH.... I wouldn't know where to even begin with this.

Because it's true.  Stop shaking and put up or...

 

I got the numbers.  I keep asking people to prove me wrong yet...I'm still waiting.  Here's your chance.

[boatseller]

3 hours ago, tallnthensome said:

I never said anything would stop lawyers . I said getting a vaccine on your own and by your choice doesn’t warrant a lawsuit against a cruise line for your decision to have done so. You can’t sue someone (NCL)  and win because YOU got a vaccination unless maybe your the drug manufacturer. 

"I never said anything would stop lawyers" That's the whole point.

 

If the cruise lines make it a condition of using a credit or even a deposit and someone get a rash, it's going to court.  They're not going to risk the liability or taking the charge for refunds.  There is almost no upside to requiring vaccines.

 

Also, it can't stop there.  If they require a covid vaccine and someone acquires a different disease for which a vaccine is not required...lawsuit!

[mianmike]

1 hour ago, Red-Sol said:

SMH.... I wouldn't know where to even begin with this.

 

Don't even try.  1st rule of conspiracy theory is to never attempt to prove your conspiracy, make others disprove your conspiracy (i.e. the flu is worse than covid).