Will RCL/Cruise Lines get to choose the vaccine they require to allow you to sail?

[BND]

10 hours ago, not-enough-cruising said:

I never insinuated a cruiseline accessing a medical database. I was replying to someone posting about fraudulent or counterfeit records. An official database could provide a verifiable record to an individual- kind of like the birth certificates some travel with instead of a passport. 

Providing fraudulent or counterfeit records would open a whole other can of worms.  Want to be banned for life from all cruise lines?   Get sick and possibly pass it to the others who either also faked records or friends and family who don't cruise and haven't been vaccinated?  While the cruise line won't contact any Dr's or clinics to confirm, if you are found to be lying about receiving it, there are a whole lot of other issues.   To enter parts of Africa you just have to provide an official shot record that you've had the yellow fever vaccine, so why wouldn't that be good enough?  The best way to fight this disease is for as many people as possible to get the vaccine.

 

My DH and I were talking last night about the fact, if they really want people to get vaccinated, then the current  and future administration, speaker of the house, Congress, etc should televise getting the vaccine to show those that are ignorant about it and scared that it's a positive.  Dr. Fauci has already said he will get it so he ought to do it in front of cameras.  And, don't get me started on the people that think there's a "chip" in the vaccine.   

Edited November 23, 2020 by BND

[Ocean Boy]

12 minutes ago, BND said:

 And, don't get me started on the people that think there's a "chip" in the vaccine.   

That truly made me laugh out loud.

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, ace2542 said:

So masks forever then? If I have to wear a mask I don't see the point in getting the vaccine. Surely the point is not to have do that? And besides this travels down the vaccine age groups the numbers will drop very quickly at least in UK. They say in 1.5 million cases. Lets for sake of argument double those figures the true case count is 3 million that nearly in 1 in 20 people who have had it.

Well, if you read the last sentence properly, you'd have answered your question.  "Until vaccination is almost universal" meaning that nearly everyone could have the virus but not get sick from it, and "as long as infection rates remain high", meaning that there is still a lot of the virus out there, then the vaccine protects you, and the mask protects others.

 

Do you really think that this will "vanish" when they start to vaccinate people?  Look at the decades it took to eliminate smallpox.  Does anyone know if either the vaccine or previous infection provides lifetime immunity?

[D C]

2 hours ago, BND said:

Providing fraudulent or counterfeit records would open a whole other can of worms.  Want to be banned for life from all cruise lines?   Get sick and possibly pass it to the others who either also faked records or friends and family who don't cruise and haven't been vaccinated?  While the cruise line won't contact any Dr's or clinics to confirm, if you are found to be lying about receiving it, there are a whole lot of other issues.   To enter parts of Africa you just have to provide an official shot record that you've had the yellow fever vaccine, so why wouldn't that be good enough?  The best way to fight this disease is for as many people as possible to get the vaccine.

 

My DH and I were talking last night about the fact, if they really want people to get vaccinated, then the current  and future administration, speaker of the house, Congress, etc should televise getting the vaccine to show those that are ignorant about it and scared that it's a positive.  Dr. Fauci has already said he will get it so he ought to do it in front of cameras.  And, don't get me started on the people that think there's a "chip" in the vaccine.   

 

 

You mean go on TV and get a chip-free saline shot?   (because you know that's what people will say in order to uphold their anti-vaxx position).  

 

Acceptance rate will be interesting given the number of seemingly normal people who suddenly turn anti-vaxx when it comes to annual flu shots.  

[not-enough-cruising]

2 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

That truly made me laugh out loud.

Or the “DNA manipulation” aspect of the vaccine. 

[BND]

12 minutes ago, D C said:

 

 

You mean go on TV and get a chip-free saline shot?   (because you know that's what people will say in order to uphold their anti-vaxx position).  

 

Acceptance rate will be interesting given the number of seemingly normal people who suddenly turn anti-vaxx when it comes to annual flu shots.  

Unfortunately, you can't fix stupid (or ignorance).  

 

People who believe in conspiracy theories at that level have no idea what it takes to uphold it.  There would have to be thousands of people who knew what was going on, go along with it and have to hide it.  The US is not the only ones manufacturing the vaccines.  Do people think that other countries and manufacturers would go along with that?  Of course, there are  people that  believe that China has very few if any cases or deaths and that the earth is flat.  

Edited November 23, 2020 by BND

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, BND said:

Of course, people believe that China has very few if any cases or deaths and that the earth is flat.

Hey, I had a crew member on my ship a few months back, who was a "flat earther".  Never did get a complete answer as to how you fly west from California and end up arriving on the East Coast, never having changed heading.  Nor how things disappear over the horizon when sailing.  Just can't coach stupid.

[BND]

25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Hey, I had a crew member on my ship a few months back, who was a "flat earther".  Never did get a complete answer as to how you fly west from California and end up arriving on the East Coast, never having changed heading.  Nor how things disappear over the horizon when sailing.  Just can't coach stupid.

Well, my DH knows a couple of shuttle astronauts and I've met them and they'll tell you, nope, not flat lol.

[Ocean Boy]

4 minutes ago, BND said:

Well, my DH knows a couple of shuttle astronauts and I've met them and they'll tell you, nope, not flat lol.

Hmm, I always wondered why when I'm standing in the beach I can't see Europe. I thought I might need glasses.🤔😇

[ace2542]

1 hour ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Or the “DNA manipulation” aspect of the vaccine. 

Or that the police are collecting DNA samples from the test kits. Which they have not done and one conspiracy theory is this an attempt for a dna database through the backdoor. They will never get this intensity of DNA again. And I can but won't but name at least 6 to 10 murder cases where they have the dna of the killer on file with no match in the database and a real good chance the person is still alive.

Edited November 23, 2020 by ace2542

[ace2542]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, if you read the last sentence properly, you'd have answered your question.  "Until vaccination is almost universal" meaning that nearly everyone could have the virus but not get sick from it, and "as long as infection rates remain high", meaning that there is still a lot of the virus out there, then the vaccine protects you, and the mask protects others.

 

Do you really think that this will "vanish" when they start to vaccinate people?  Look at the decades it took to eliminate smallpox.  Does anyone know if either the vaccine or previous infection provides lifetime immunity?

I think it provides enough immunity for a long enough period of time to drive this right down to stage where every year the at risk group is offered the jab like with the flu if needed while the none at risk group just carry on at least in western society. In UK we are not all offered flu jab but you can get it if you want it I think without going privately at some point. In America flu jab is on sale at pharmacy I have seen it.

 

I think we are close to those levels now in certain places in the world. The true USA infection count must be at least 50 million and that is being conservative which is 1 in 6. Once the vaccine hits the general public the figures will drop very quickly.

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

I think it provides enough immunity for a long enough period of time to drive this right down to stage where every year the at risk group is offered the jab like with the flu if needed while the none at risk group just carry on at least in western society. In UK we are not all offered flu jab but you can get it if you want it I think without going privately at some point. In America flu jab is on sale at pharmacy I have seen it.

 

I think we are close to those levels now in certain places in the world. The true USA infection count must be at least 50 million and that is being conservative which is 1 in 6. Once the vaccine hits the general public the figures will drop very quickly.

Well, another poster on a HAL thread says that an interview with a vaccine expert said that with a vaccine efficacy of 90%, herd immunity will not happen to a significant amount until 70% of the population is vaccinated.  And, that is a "best guess", since they won't know how the "herd immunity" factor works with this virus, as some vaccines provide better "herd immunity" than others.  Further, this expert also could not answer whether the vaccine would stop the spread of virus, or merely stop the person from getting the disease, and continue to be an asymptomatic carrier.  And, remember, that "herd immunity" is not real immunity to the disease.  It is "immunity" because your contact with infected people is low enough, but if you come into contact with possibly one infected person, you can contract the disease.

[Charles4515]

The handwriting is on the wall. 
https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Qantas-will-require-Covid-vaccination-for-international-passengers

[ace2542]

13 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, another poster on a HAL thread says that an interview with a vaccine expert said that with a vaccine efficacy of 90%, herd immunity will not happen to a significant amount until 70% of the population is vaccinated.  And, that is a "best guess", since they won't know how the "herd immunity" factor works with this virus, as some vaccines provide better "herd immunity" than others.  Further, this expert also could not answer whether the vaccine would stop the spread of virus, or merely stop the person from getting the disease, and continue to be an asymptomatic carrier.  And, remember, that "herd immunity" is not real immunity to the disease.  It is "immunity" because your contact with infected people is low enough, but if you come into contact with possibly one infected person, you can contract the disease.

So called herd immunity is antibodies percent within a population at a figure of 70% in simple english yes? Antibody presence caused by vaccination solely? Then you are starting from scratch? Or antibodies against infection from having been infected previously plus vaccination of the previously uninfected? So both? If  so you are already a bit of the way there . Vaccination rates probably will hit 70% once the pro vaccine campaign gets moving. I think the result of the U.S election will influence it in America people will have more trust in Biden, Harris or Facui then in Trump and his witch doctor and that one he was consulting with really was apparently. And in UK they trying to get  people like Marcus Rashford onboard (google what he has done recently). With a couple of influencers on side it will go right up.

Edited November 23, 2020 by ace2542

[ace2542]

4 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

The handwriting is on the wall. 
https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Qantas-will-require-Covid-vaccination-for-international-passengers

I could have told you that. There are so many ways people can get a "gentle nudge" towards taking it. Plus the airlines won't want to get sued. Any more then the cruise lines will.

[D C]

1 minute ago, ace2542 said:

So called herd immunity is antibodies percent within a population at a figure of 70% in simple english yes? Antibody presence caused by vaccination solely? Then you are starting from scratch? Or antibodies against infection from having been infected previously plus vaccination of the previously uninfected? So both? If  so you are already a bit of the way there already. Vaccination rates probably will hit 70% once the pro vaccine campaign gets moving. I think the result of the U.S election will influence it in America people will have more trust in Biden, Harris or Facui then in Trump and his witch doctor and that one he was consulting with really was apparently. And in UK they trying to get  people like Marcus Rashford onboard (google what he has done recently). With a couple of influencers on side it will go right up.

 

 

I think 70% is out of reach in the US.  There are a lot of people that voluntarily elect to be stupid and ignore facts and reason in favor of whatever nonsense they read online.  Combine that with the ever increasing number of anti-vaxxers and the "this is the fastest vaccine ever so it can't be safe" crowd, I'm thinking 50% will be a success. 

 

Plus, 70% is just a guess.  There have been reports that the threshold for practical herd immunity may be in the 20-30% range.  The question really is what does your own herd look like?  We'll probably have some sub-populations with >80% acceptance rate and other sub-populations with <20% acceptance rate.  Pick your friends wisely 🙂

[ace2542]

1 minute ago, D C said:

 

 

I think 70% is out of reach in the US.  There are a lot of people that voluntarily elect to be stupid and ignore facts and reason in favor of whatever nonsense they read online.  Combine that with the ever increasing number of anti-vaxxers and the "this is the fastest vaccine ever so it can't be safe" crowd, I'm thinking 50% will be a success. 

 

Plus, 70% is just a guess.  There have been reports that the threshold for practical herd immunity may be in the 20-30% range.  The question really is what does your own herd look like?  We'll probably have some sub-populations with >80% acceptance rate and other sub-populations with <20% acceptance rate.  Pick your friends wisely 🙂

I think it will happen like this. It will get the once over offer through the population with pro and anti campaigns various carrots and sticks offered. No in person in drinking forever in bars, no live sports events forever. Vegas casinos shut forever clubs shut forever etc etc  etc but they will back down from that. But what will happen is this in terms of just living in the USA and not going on a cruise ship. If you haven't been vaccinated you can't sue anyone for getting and your insurance won't cover any treatment if you didn't get vaccinated so you can lump it.

[D C]

1 minute ago, ace2542 said:

I think it will happen like this. It will get the once over offer through the population with pro and anti campaigns various carrots and sticks offered. No in person in drinking forever in bars, no live sports events forever. Vegas casinos shut forever clubs shut forever etc etc  etc but they will back down from that. But what will happen is this in terms of just living in the USA and not going on a cruise ship. If you haven't been vaccinated you can't sue anyone for getting and your insurance won't cover any treatment if you didn't get vaccinated so you can lump it.

I could see that in other countries perhaps, but it's likely that any attempt to do that level of constraint in the US would be met with a load of lawsuits at both the state and federal level challenging the constitutionality of such measures.   

 

Plus, you can't shut down the businesses of prime political donors.  That'd be bad for the get-rich side of the business of politics. 😉

[ace2542]

1 minute ago, D C said:

I could see that in other countries perhaps, but it's likely that any attempt to do that level of constraint in the US would be met with a load of lawsuits at both the state and federal level challenging the constitutionality of such measures.   

 

Plus, you can't shut down the businesses of prime political donors.  That'd be bad for the get-rich side of the business of politics. 😉

But surely insurance will NOT cover medical costs for people who refuse the vaccination then get this? And nor can a person who did not get vaccinated sue for getting it. Even in America where the woman sued and won for the poodle drying in the microwave so now they have a sticker on them. And the woman with the McDonalds coffee drip burns.

[D C]

1 minute ago, ace2542 said:

But surely insurance will NOT cover medical costs for people who refuse the vaccination then get this? And nor can a person who did not get vaccinated sue for getting it. Even in America where the woman sued and won for the poodle drying in the microwave so now they have a sticker on them. And the woman with the McDonalds coffee drip burns.

 

So long as vaccines are optional, I don't see how insurance companies can deny coverage (and I don't see a route to make them compulsory).  I could see a point where the cost of insurance could be based on vaccinations, but we certainly haven't seen that with any other vaccination.  Insurance still covers getting the measles even if you're dumb enough to deny that vaccines for it work. 

 

 

[not-enough-cruising]

6 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

But surely insurance will NOT cover medical costs for people who refuse the vaccination then get this? And nor can a person who did not get vaccinated sue for getting it. Even in America where the woman sued and won for the poodle drying in the microwave so now they have a sticker on them. And the woman with the McDonalds coffee drip burns.

Once again, you need to stop trying to decipher the American tort system, and stop making ridiculous statements about casinos, sporting events and the like. 
Poodle and microwave?? I suggest you research the McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

Even in America where the woman sued and won for the poodle drying in the microwave so now they have a sticker on them.

Please, please, please provide a link to this court case.  I have a brand new microwave, and I can't for the life of me find the sticker about not microwaving your dog.  And, as noted above, the actual facts of the McDonalds coffee suit are far different than the urban legends that are spread about it.

[ace2542]

3 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Once again, you need to stop trying to decipher the American tort system, and stop making ridiculous statements about casinos, sporting events and the like. 
Poodle and microwave?? I suggest you research the McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit

McDonalds case got reduced on appeal didn't it.? The reason microwaves have stickers on them is become some woman dried a dog - I think a poodle in the microwave - after they had been out in the rain. The dog died in the microwave cooked from the inside out and she sued the makers of microwave because she claimed not to know to not do it. And she won her suit and today apparently all microwaves  in America at least come with a sticker not suitable for drying off pets or words to that effect.

[ace2542]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Please, please, please provide a link to this court case.  I have a brand new microwave, and I can't for the life of me find the sticker about not microwaving your dog.  And, as noted above, the actual facts of the McDonalds coffee suit are far different than the urban legends that are spread about it.

I really did think that was true everyone has heard of that case. We have talked about in work. Back to the topic at hand surely people won't be able to sue their employer or the cruise line if they get the  coronavirus if they didn't get the vaccine?

Edited November 23, 2020 by ace2542

[Pratique]

4 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

McDonalds case got reduced on appeal didn't it.?

The parties reached a settlement.