Technical Stop Only requested in Canada 2/25/21

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, scottca075 said:

In 1886 the U.S. had a commercial shipbuilding industry building passenger steamships, what today we would consider cruise ships.. The law was not about passenger safety, but was pure protectionism.

Ah, so you think that this was enacted to ensure that paddle steamboats would not be built overseas and brought across the ocean to be used in the US?  Those ships were not capable of ocean crossings.  Read about the various Steamboat Acts that preceded the PVSA, that required safety measures be installed at the shipowner's expense, and formed the Steamboat Inspection Service, which is the predecessor of today's USCG Marine Inspection Division.  The shipowners merely reflagged existing, US built vessels to get around the law, requiring Congress to enact the PVSA to require that domestic US ships be US flag, so that the safety requirements were adhered to.  Without the PVSA, that US shipbuilding industry would have gladly continued to build steamboats that were flagged in other countries, the shipyard doesn't care who owns the ship they build, or the flag it flies. You obviously don't know "very well" why the PVSA was enacted.

 

And, once again, someone without maritime experience looks at the PVSA merely from the perspective of a "cruise ship".  Let me say it again, it is not the Cruise Ship Services Act, it is Passenger Vessel, and hence covers far more than merely cruise ships.  And, again, just like in 1886, most of those Passenger vessels are not capable of being built overseas and then used to cross San Francisco Bay, or from San Diego to Catalina.

 

Please tell me how "ferries and cruises can be separated", given the language of SOLAS and other international conventions that require the common definition of "passenger vessel".  I don't think that getting a majority of 162 nations signatory to SOLAS to agree that there needs to be a change in the language so that US cruise passengers get to have the vacation they want at a cut rate price.

 

And, you harp on the US built clause as the source of the protectionism and the real problem with the PVSA.  I have no real issue with deleting the US built clause, as there are many US flag ships that were built overseas but that meet US regulations for safety, training, and competency.  You want to let cruise ships into the domestic US trade?  Fine, let them be US flag, with USCG regulations, US crew (I might even go as far as allowing foreign crew with US mariner credentials and training), and pay US wages and follow US labor laws.  As you say, this will never happen, as it would drive the cruise lines out of business if they priced the cruise to make money after all that.

 

Not sure which two "major accidents" you are cherry picking, but I can think of a couple where there were no deaths, but were major "accidents" with the ships drifting without power for some time.  No, these were not the fault of the crew, but Marine Inspection goes way beyond just the crew, and inspects and tests equipment to see if it is actually working.  I'm talking about the CO2 fire extinguishing system on the Carnival Splendor that was found to have been installed incorrectly when the ship was built, and the fault was not detected until the fire investigation years after she was built, and the training of the crew on the Splendor regarding the use of the water fog fire suppression system (bridge officer kept resetting the system, stopping it), and finally the fact that the emergency generator repeatedly failed to start and provide power due to failures of the equipment.  All of these would have been found and corrected by the required periodic testing and maintenance required by the USCG.

 

As for jingoism, I have sailed with many, many officers and crew who when they came from their home countries to work in the US have either obtained citizenship to get their USCG license, or obtained a Green Card to get crew credentials.  I don't assume someone's nationality based on their appearance.

[skynight]

4 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Why bother to pay a fine? Your country should require American-registered and crewed ships for the Alaska run. Just pay extra for American labor. 🙄

 

This isn't really possible any time soon. It's not just hiring US labor. It's way more complicated than that. It would take a massive investment in time and money to build and staff US flagged ships to meet the demand for Alaska cruise vacations. It would also raise fares to levels that would would be unattractive to many customers. 

[Lady Arwen]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Ah, so you think that this was enacted to ensure that paddle steamboats would not be built overseas and brought across the ocean to be used in the US?  Those ships were not capable of ocean crossings.  Read about the various Steamboat Acts that preceded the PVSA, that required safety measures be installed at the shipowner's expense, and formed the Steamboat Inspection Service, which is the predecessor of today's USCG Marine Inspection Division.  The shipowners merely reflagged existing, US built vessels to get around the law, requiring Congress to enact the PVSA to require that domestic US ships be US flag, so that the safety requirements were adhered to.  Without the PVSA, that US shipbuilding industry would have gladly continued to build steamboats that were flagged in other countries, the shipyard doesn't care who owns the ship they build, or the flag it flies. You obviously don't know "very well" why the PVSA was enacted.

 

And, once again, someone without maritime experience looks at the PVSA merely from the perspective of a "cruise ship".  Let me say it again, it is not the Cruise Ship Services Act, it is Passenger Vessel, and hence covers far more than merely cruise ships.  And, again, just like in 1886, most of those Passenger vessels are not capable of being built overseas and then used to cross San Francisco Bay, or from San Diego to Catalina.

 

Please tell me how "ferries and cruises can be separated", given the language of SOLAS and other international conventions that require the common definition of "passenger vessel".  I don't think that getting a majority of 162 nations signatory to SOLAS to agree that there needs to be a change in the language so that US cruise passengers get to have the vacation they want at a cut rate price.

 

And, you harp on the US built clause as the source of the protectionism and the real problem with the PVSA.  I have no real issue with deleting the US built clause, as there are many US flag ships that were built overseas but that meet US regulations for safety, training, and competency.  You want to let cruise ships into the domestic US trade?  Fine, let them be US flag, with USCG regulations, US crew (I might even go as far as allowing foreign crew with US mariner credentials and training), and pay US wages and follow US labor laws.  As you say, this will never happen, as it would drive the cruise lines out of business if they priced the cruise to make money after all that.

 

Not sure which two "major accidents" you are cherry picking, but I can think of a couple where there were no deaths, but were major "accidents" with the ships drifting without power for some time.  No, these were not the fault of the crew, but Marine Inspection goes way beyond just the crew, and inspects and tests equipment to see if it is actually working.  I'm talking about the CO2 fire extinguishing system on the Carnival Splendor that was found to have been installed incorrectly when the ship was built, and the fault was not detected until the fire investigation years after she was built, and the training of the crew on the Splendor regarding the use of the water fog fire suppression system (bridge officer kept resetting the system, stopping it), and finally the fact that the emergency generator repeatedly failed to start and provide power due to failures of the equipment.  All of these would have been found and corrected by the required periodic testing and maintenance required by the USCG.

 

As for jingoism, I have sailed with many, many officers and crew who when they came from their home countries to work in the US have either obtained citizenship to get their USCG license, or obtained a Green Card to get crew credentials.  I don't assume someone's nationality based on their appearance.

Thank you again, for trying to educate those who will not listen.  All these individuals accomplish by doing so is to make more obvious their lack of knowledge on this subject.  There are a few members on these boards who just need to be right no matter what.  They will resort to silly, juvenile name calling (just waiting for a couple to chime in with their special one for me) or insults.  Please know that the rest of us, and  certainly the majority of us, appreciate all that you’ve shared with us over the years.  We’ve learned so much from you and, hopefully, you’ll continue to educate us after you’ve retired.

[GonzoWCS]

23 hours ago, Lady Arwen said:

Thank you again, for trying to educate those who will not listen.  All these individuals accomplish by doing so is to make more obvious their lack of knowledge on this subject.  There are a few members on these boards who just need to be right no matter what.  They will resort to silly, juvenile name calling (just waiting for a couple to chime in with their special one for me) or insults.  Please know that the rest of us, and  certainly the majority of us, appreciate all that you’ve shared with us over the years.  We’ve learned so much from you and, hopefully, you’ll continue to educate us after you’ve retired.

Here Here!

[gmjc2]

It is always worth a try. After all we have never faced this situation before. Alaska needs our help. At least the 2 senators are trying to help their constants.  

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, gmjc2 said:

It is always worth a try. After all we have never faced this situation before. Alaska needs our help. At least the 2 senators are trying to help their constants.  

Or the 2 senators are making themselves look good for their constituents.

 

Senator Murkowski was the most courted Republican senator by the Democrats in the huge covid relief bill. Perhaps if she had given them her vote, they would have felt they owed her a favor and could reciprocate by backing her bill. 

[mcrcruiser]

Here is a answer for Alaska's  marketing arm  & or  Dept of commerce  . They need to spend money advertising  coming to Alaska via air   & by showing cost saving  for meals ,hotels & car rentals .There is so much to see in the interior of  Alaska & a cruise is a small part of the Aaska experience . The state doesn't need Wash DC   politics 

[milolii]

Friends taking a 10 land tour end of May.  Not with Princess or any other crises line.   Both are fully vaccinated, have been told they need negative CoVID test with in 72 hours as well.  
 That is current as of today.