Healthy Sail Panel asked to re-evaluate

[oteixeira]

16 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

Yes, I'll accept that it's out of an abundance of caution (and won't assume any other motive than that), but even so, it's kind of an extreme abundance of caution. I mean, if I get covid-19 after I'm vaccinated, and it's like getting a very mild cold, I'm not going to be too bothered about it. And if everyone else is vaccinated, others run a very, very small chance of getting it from me, and their case (in that case) would also be a mild case as well.  

 

I'm not seeing the need for the extreme caution, and wonder why only some health professional are seeing it.  I've seen several doctors, epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists say if you're vaccinated and everyone else is vaccinated, then it's fine to meet without masks.  That's also historically true about vaccines, why such a different approach this one?  That's what's puzzling me these days. 

 

 

 

 

I'll take your comment and go one further.  I have (and all of us) seen the CDC say if you're vaccinated and everyone else is vaccinated, then it's fine to meet without masks.  As a matter of fact, this past week.   So....it begs the questions, when they let cruises go, what will they require (my bet is mandatory vaccines).

 

 

[farmersfight]

16 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

That's also historically true about vaccines, why such a different approach this one?  That's what's puzzling me these days. 

 

Pure politics (CDC, Dr. Fauci & more). You know what they say, "never let a good crisis go to waste"...

[hallux]

1 hour ago, tumblew467 said:

I guess the concern for the continuation of masks even if you are vaccinated is that you can still get covid . Because the vaccine only protects you from the severe cases and hospitalizations. Since this is all so new  they are being cautious. 

 

Are you speaking to continued wearing of masks in day to day life or the idea that even vaccinated folks may be required to wear masks on a ship that is populated by only vaccinated people?

 

If the former - there's simply no way to know who is vaccinated or who is not when you're wandering a store.  Outside?  Mask off!

 

If the latter - I agree that on a ship full of vaccinated people the general idea should be to stow the masks, but in small venues or places where you might be near others for an extended period a mask might be an option.  And would definitely want to wear one in port among "unknowns".

[tumblew467]

2 hours ago, hallux said:

Are you speaking to continued wearing of masks in day to day life or the idea that even vaccinated folks may be required to wear masks on a ship that is populated by only vaccinated people?

 

If the former - there's simply no way to know who is vaccinated or who is not when you're wandering a store.  Outside?  Mask off!

 

If the latter - I agree that on a ship full of vaccinated people the general idea should be to stow the masks, but in small venues or places where you might be near others for an extended period a mask might be an option.  And would definitely want to wear one in port among "unknowns".

I was referring to cruise ships. I agree with what you say. I was thinking of the CDC guidelines for vaccinated people. Avoiding lg groups, etc. 

[Sand and Seas]

I can see wearing masks in some of the indoor areas like the theater or casino.  Maybe we will catch less colds from each other.   However, I want to walk around the WaterFront enjoying the ocean air😎

[teacherman]

I have followed the "rules" for the last year.  I have worn my mask every time I am in a store, church, taking care of my grandchildren, riding in a car with anyone who does not live in my house, flying 3 hours on an airplane, etc.   No big deal.  BUT the last month, I have returned to work where I am meeting with clients sitting across from me at a desk.  We are separated by a plastic shield and both are wearing masks.  However, we are talking to each other.  After 6 hours of this, with only a few minutes break each hour, I cannot wait to take that mask off.  The thought of having to wear a mask during a 4 to 5 hour air flight (including airport time), or longer if going overseas is NOT appealing at all.  And the thought of maybe having to wear a mask at times while on the ship is a deal breaker,  The big problem is that when it is time to make a final payment, we will all be speculating as to what the conditions will be on our sail date.  Or buy "CFAR" insurance, which can be quite costly.

[ohiocruisemom]

18 hours ago, tumblew467 said:

I guess the concern for the continuation of masks even if you are vaccinated is that you can still get covid . Because the vaccine only protects you from the severe cases and hospitalizations. Since this is all so new  they are being cautious. 

 

The thing that I can’t get passed is since when is it a function of government to protect us from getting sick.  (Not deathly Ill, not overrunning hospitals) just plain sick?  We have and will continue to get sick.  It’s part of living.  That being said if some people are more comfortable wearing masks even after pandemic is over because it helps protect them from getting sick from airborne illness that’s fine. They are welcome to, just don’t put the focus on mandates to keep everyone from getting sick. 

[chengkp75]

21 hours ago, ohiocruisemom said:

The thing that I can’t get passed is since when is it a function of government to protect us from getting sick

The CDC couldn't care less whether you get sick on a cruise ship or not.  Their mandate is to stop that disease from being brought back into the US, and what happens to someone who is sick after departing the ship, who they contact, how they are treated, etc.  That is their function.

[PelicanBill]

22 hours ago, ohiocruisemom said:

The thing that I can’t get passed is since when is it a function of government to protect us from getting sick.  (Not deathly Ill, not overrunning hospitals) just plain sick?  We have and will continue to get sick.  It’s part of living.  That being said if some people are more comfortable wearing masks even after pandemic is over because it helps protect them from getting sick from airborne illness that’s fine. They are welcome to, just don’t put the focus on mandates to keep everyone from getting sick. 

 

This confuses me. A pandemic that kills a half million in our country in one year is not "part of living." It is the mission of DHHS and its CDC arm to protect us from disease and illness of all kinds, and more.  Here is their mission:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/about/organization/mission.htm 

 

If you read the first few pages of the CDC Framework for Conditional Sailing, you can clearly see how they assess the threat from Cruise Ships and therefore the rationale for the extreme requirements.  In addition, they report how the cruise lines have mishandled Covid on board their ships for months after the Pandemic began, which further elevated their concern for Cruise Ships as a vector for disease.

 

The only people qualified to say when the "pandemic is over" are the experts tracking transmission. But we don't have to be experts to understand that 20% vaccinated isn't the end of it yet. We have about four more months until the majority of Americans are vaccinated, and 30 days have passed for immunity. We should be able to tell in about June or July if we have been successful and can declare the pandemic over, and if it's safe to be maskless with strangers without distance.  The impatience of people is going to kill more people.

 

[BoozinCroozin]

I think they need to just drop almost everything. My approach would be as follows...

1. Anyone that is eligible to be vaccinated must be vaccinated. No exceptions. If your religion prevents it, you are an anti-vaxxer, or whatever reason, if you can be vaccinated you must or no boarding.
2. Those that cannot be vaccinated need a negative test 3 days prior to embarkation. During the cruise they are required to do daily temperature checks. Midway through the cruise, they take another covid test.
3. No self-serve buffet. A crew member can be stationed to plate the food at the traditional buffet.
4. All port terminal staff, crew, and onboard staff must be vaccinated.

This is all that should be required. It is not rocket science. There are no ambiguous items to think about. Straight forward, simple. 

[DCGuy64]

As we all know, there's what's logical, and there's what's likely. 

It's logical to say that everybody should be vaccinated, period. 

However, there are, and always will be (in my opinion, anyway), those who don't want to get vaccinated. Their reasons could be anything from not liking to introduce foreign substances into their bodies, their religious beliefs, their mistrust of government, or any number of other reasons. Sure, it's easy just to say "they can't travel" or "they can't cruise." But it's never that simple. In the real world, we make accommodations for people all of the time. We build ramps for people with disabilities, we offer special meals for people with allergies or religious observances, we allow seeing-eye dogs and comfort animals, the list goes on and on. 

It's not a matter of "take it or leave it." There are entire sectors of the legal profession that do nothing but file lawsuits when a client's particular needs or preferences are denied. 

Personally, I have no problem with cruise lines requiring a vaccination in order to board. But it's pie-in-the-sky naivete to expect that's how it'll work in practice. Vaccine passports and the like are HUGELY debated in Europe right now, and I don't expect the controversy over them to go away anytime in the near future. 

 

[hallux]

25 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

In the real world, we make accommodations for people all of the time. We build ramps for people with disabilities, we offer special meals for people with allergies or religious observances, we allow seeing-eye dogs and comfort animals, the list goes on and on.

The difference with these accommodations is that they either have zero or minimal impact on others. 

 

The idea of accommodating someone and putting the health of others at risk is a different ball of wax.  Yes, I understand that a vaccinated person is at less risk but if you make accommodation for one then you need to do so for all that ask which then puts all of them at risk and a risk to each other.

[DCGuy64]

12 minutes ago, hallux said:

The difference with these accommodations is that they either have zero or minimal impact on others. 

 

The idea of accommodating someone and putting the health of others at risk is a different ball of wax.  Yes, I understand that a vaccinated person is at less risk but if you make accommodation for one then you need to do so for all that ask which then puts all of them at risk and a risk to each other.

Thanks for weighing in, but obviously, I disagree.

 

[DCGuy64]

And again, the CDC still says "don't travel." Unbelievable, but glad I read that 1.3 million Americans effectively gave the CDC the finger and did so, anyway.

Travel During COVID-19 | CDC (from Feb 16 but reiterated on Mar 9)

COVID-19: TSA screened 1.3 million travelers Sunday (usatoday.com)

The CDC doesn't care if travel ever resumes; I do.

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by DCGuy64
corrected date

[GA Dave]

Hopefully, this real world news will eliminate thoughts of masks on cruises with fully vaccinated passengers and crew.

 

Pfizer Covid Vaccine Works Against Asymptomatic Spread

[HuliHuli]

1 hour ago, GA Dave said:

Hopefully, this real world news will eliminate thoughts of masks on cruises with fully vaccinated passengers and crew.

 

Pfizer Covid Vaccine Works Against Asymptomatic Spread

I concur and posted a link to this on another thread last week.  Hopefully, it is a scientifically relevant piece of the developing picture as we track toward the sunset of this pandemic.

[Mommu98]

The vaccine doesn’t prevent you from catching Covid. In fact it has never said that, it only says if you have been vaccinated and you catch covid, your symptoms would be mild. We are only 3 months into vaccinations. Let’s see what the outcomes are a year from now. And speaking of that, the likelihood of having to get your yearly flu/covid shot is more likely than a once and done. The vaccine is only shown to be effective for 8-9 months, MAYBE!  I had covid in January (mild symptoms) and thinking that now my body has the antibodies, I’m much more likely to fight it off successfully during the flu season than it to bring me to my knees. Cruise is planned for 9/2022, i will socially distance, wear a mask and abide by the rules. But if they require a vaccine then i’ll look elsewhere on my bucket list! 

[hallux]

8 hours ago, Mommu98 said:

The vaccine is only shown to be effective for 8-9 months, MAYBE

We only have 8-9 months of data...

[oteixeira]

4 hours ago, hallux said:

We only have 8-9 months of data...

This is key, and a great call @hallux.   It's still a moving target as to how long it lasts (and each shot may be different even in that aspect).

[hallux]

1 hour ago, oteixeira said:

 It's still a moving target as to how long it lasts (and each shot may be different even in that aspect).

Considering recent news that the "reaction" to the vaccine shots being much more pronounced (better antibody activity/production) for someone that has had and recovered from COVID and is now getting vaccine shots I have to wonder if that would also factor into long-term effectiveness...

[Mommu98]

6 hours ago, hallux said:

Considering recent news that the "reaction" to the vaccine shots being much more pronounced (better antibody activity/production) for someone that has had and recovered from COVID and is now getting vaccine shots I have to wonder if that would also factor into long-term effectiveness...

My 82 year old mother had covid in July and recovered. She just got her second dose last week and had an adverse reaction to it. 

Personally, i'd rather rely on my antibodies to help fight off the virus than a vaccine that has no long term result stats. Yes, I am grateful that my symptoms were mild, my husband's were not but we both recovered. (except for our senses of smell, those are still around 80%). I had the sense of smell like a bloodhound! lol

[DaCruiseBug]

20 hours ago, Mommu98 said:

The vaccine is only shown to be effective for 8-9 months, MAYBE! 

 

Source?

[hallux]

31 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

Source?

As I noted - the fact that we only have 8-9 months of data.  Next month will be 9-10 months, etc, etc until it's discovered that some of the first people vaccinated have reduced antibody response...

[DaCruiseBug]

17 minutes ago, hallux said:

As I noted - the fact that we only have 8-9 months of data.  Next month will be 9-10 months, etc, etc until it's discovered that some of the first people vaccinated have reduced antibody response...

Pfizer actually started human trials in April of 2020 (11 months ago). Only having that amount of data has absolutely no bearing on how long a vaccine is effective for.

[Mommu98]

source? I'm still not getting the vaccine. i absolutely believe in vaccines WITH historical evidence in side effects and health effects. I was vaccinated and so were my children, but I do not get the flu shot nor will I get the covid vaccine. We have less than 6 months of data showing long term effects. Reading the CDC and WHO website, NO ONE has the definitive answer yet. nor will they for years to come.