DeSantis nearing compromise on cruise vaccination requirements

[kbandwb]

I am a little ignorant when it comes to legal issues.  If the judge finds in the favor of the CDC is able to regulate the cruise ships and issue the CSO, what does that do about the Florida law not allowing businesses to request proof of vaccination? Is that law now null and void with regards to the cruise industry?  Or is does it still apply?  The CDC did give a path to cruising without 95% vaccinated but it sounds like the cruise ships prefer to go the fully vaccinated route in order to assure safety and greater pleasure on board the ship.  I guess my question is, how does this ruling affect whether or not the ships can ask for the vaccination status and/or require only fully vaccinated to travel?  

 

Probably a dumb question but the two don't seem to be directly related but definitely very closely related.   Sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to hear as we are booked in July on Horizon and fully vaccinated.  Prefer a fully vaccinated ship for reasons others have already stated here a lot of times. 

[Lee Cruiser]

14 minutes ago, kbandwb said:

I am a little ignorant when it comes to legal issues.  If the judge finds in the favor of the CDC is able to regulate the cruise ships and issue the CSO, what does that do about the Florida law not allowing businesses to request proof of vaccination? Is that law now null and void with regards to the cruise industry?  Or is does it still apply?  The CDC did give a path to cruising without 95% vaccinated but it sounds like the cruise ships prefer to go the fully vaccinated route in order to assure safety and greater pleasure on board the ship.  I guess my question is, how does this ruling affect whether or not the ships can ask for the vaccination status and/or require only fully vaccinated to travel?  

 

Probably a dumb question but the two don't seem to be directly related but definitely very closely related.   Sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to hear as we are booked in July on Horizon and fully vaccinated.  Prefer a fully vaccinated ship for reasons others have already stated here a lot of times. 

Not a lawyer, but it would seem that the judge would have to place an injunction on that law as well.  Again, I'm certainly not an expert, but I would think that would require a different lawsuit all together.

[ProgRockCruiser]

26 minutes ago, kbandwb said:

I am a little ignorant when it comes to legal issues.  If the judge finds in the favor of the CDC is able to regulate the cruise ships and issue the CSO, what does that do about the Florida law not allowing businesses to request proof of vaccination? Is that law now null and void with regards to the cruise industry?  Or is does it still apply? 

IANAL either.

 

But based on what I have seen in the past:

 

This judge has been asked to rule whether the CDC CSO and related elements are legal - i.e. can the CDC regulate the cruise industry (and other areas) in such a manner.

 

If the judge finds that indeed, the CDC is wholly within its mandate to do so then what comes next depends on how the judgement is phrased.

 

If all he says is that the CDC is allowed to regulate cruise ships and the CSO is valid, and that it is federal law that trumps any mire local laws (such as state or county or city), then would possibly mean the cruise lines can ask for proof of vax, since they are abiding by the overriding federal regs.  But the rest of the FL/Desantis law banning businesses from asking about proof of vax could still stand, as long as there were cases that weren't overridden by the federal regs.

 

The judge could also rule that cruise lines shall comply with the CSO, but since the CSO provides options, as long as at least one option is available to the cruise line, the other options can be nullified by local state laws.  That could mean that Florida's no-proof-of-vax law would nullify the option for fully vaxxed cruises, but that's OK because another option still (technically) exists.

 

That could very likely be challenged via appeal, since the cruise lines could argue that the remaining option is simply not viable based on public perception and behavior, and also puts an undue cost burden on the cruise line because social distancing could require fewer pax to meet the requirements, and added staff/crew costs for enforced spacing at shows, etc.

 

Where's my popcorn...?

[kbandwb]

5 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

IANAL either.

 

But based on what I have seen in the past:

 

This judge has been asked to rule whether the CDC CSO and related elements are legal - i.e. can the CDC regulate the cruise industry (and other areas) in such a manner.

 

If the judge finds that indeed, the CDC is wholly within its mandate to do so then what comes next depends on how the judgement is phrased.

 

If all he says is that the CDC is allowed to regulate cruise ships and the CSO is valid, and that it is federal law that trumps any mire local laws (such as state or county or city), then would possibly mean the cruise lines can ask for proof of vax, since they are abiding by the overriding federal regs.  But the rest of the FL/Desantis law banning businesses from asking about proof of vax could still stand, as long as there were cases that weren't overridden by the federal regs.

 

The judge could also rule that cruise lines shall comply with the CSO, but since the CSO provides options, as long as at least one option is available to the cruise line, the other options can be nullified by local state laws.  That could mean that Florida's no-proof-of-vax law would nullify the option for fully vaxxed cruises, but that's OK because another option still (technically) exists.

 

That could very likely be challenged via appeal, since the cruise lines could argue that the remaining option is simply not viable based on public perception and behavior, and also puts an undue cost burden on the cruise line because social distancing could require fewer pax to meet the requirements, and added staff/crew costs for enforced spacing at shows, etc.

 

Where's my popcorn...?

Thanks!  That explanation helps a lot.  Yep, need the popcorn!  Would love to be a fly on the wall in the judges quarters. 

[Tom-n-Cheryl]

3 minutes ago, kbandwb said:

Thanks!  That explanation helps a lot.  Yep, need the popcorn!  Would love to be a fly on the wall in the judges quarters. 

 

Perhaps we'll get lucky, and he's a fan of cruising! (AND has had the vaccine)

[crewsweeper]

Jumbo tub of popcorn please.

Wondering if the judge would consider this interstate commerce and thus Fed regs apply whereas FL Statutes would only govern FL businesses.

But we'll wait 6 months or more for the judge to make up his mind.

[TNcruising02]

It seems that federal trumps state every time.  I am not sure why there is so much back and forth about it.

[geaux_aces]

13 minutes ago, crewsweeper said:

Jumbo tub of popcorn please.

Wondering if the judge would consider this interstate commerce and thus Fed regs apply whereas FL Statutes would only govern FL businesses.

But we'll wait 6 months or more for the judge to make up his mind.

Our even an equal protection clause violation because Florida allows/requires schools (public and private) to ask for proof of numerous vaccinations before attending school.  If schools can ask, why can't cruise ships?

 

This state law has the likelihood of falling on numerous legal grounds.

[Lee Cruiser]

9 minutes ago, geaux_aces said:

Our even an equal protection clause violation because Florida allows/requires schools (public and private) to ask for proof of numerous vaccinations before attending school.  If schools can ask, why can't cruise ships?

 

This state law has the likelihood of falling on numerous legal grounds.

Haven't thought about that, but it's certainly a good point. 

[kbandwb]

Is the Florida law about denying service based on vaccination status? or inability to ask about vaccination status at all?  or both?

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by kbandwb

[kdr69]

Can someone ask a moderator to change the title of this post to "DeSantis may eventually get around to a compromise on vaccinations requirements"?  Think we can all agree he's nowhere near reaching one given its been 8 days since this was posted lol.😁

[geaux_aces]

Looks like the State of Florida has not been fully honest publicly with the status of mediation.  Judge seems upset by that.  

[Joe817]

Are the proceedings televised? It would be interesting to watch it. 

[geaux_aces]

1 minute ago, Joe817 said:

Are the proceedings televised? It would be interesting to watch it. 

Civil cases in Federal Court can have cameras, but it is up to the judge.  Most often they don't.  Pretty sure this one doesn't.  I followed the above reporter on Twitter who is in the room. She probably isn't even allowed to tweet from the courtroom, so it'll likely be breaks only that we get updates.

 

[Joe817]

1 minute ago, geaux_aces said:

Civil cases in Federal Court can have cameras, but it is up to the judge.  Most often they don't.  Pretty sure this one doesn't.  I followed the above reporter on Twitter who is in the room. She probably isn't even allowed to tweet from the courtroom, so it'll likely be breaks only that we get updates.

 

Ok. Thanks for posting.

[jfunk138]

3 minutes ago, Joe817 said:

Are the proceedings televised? It would be interesting to watch it. 

Tweet above claims that the mediation is "confidential"?

[ProgRockCruiser]

10 minutes ago, geaux_aces said:

Looks like the State of Florida has not been fully honest publicly with the status of mediation.  Judge seems upset by that.  

I'm shocked, SHOCKED!, that FL would try to spin it in their favor!  Lol.

[ontheweb]

38 minutes ago, geaux_aces said:

Looks like the State of Florida has not been fully honest publicly with the status of mediation.  Judge seems upset by that.  

That puts a whole new perspective on what is happening in that court case.

 

Thank you so much for the update.

[ontheweb]

31 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Tweet above claims that the mediation is "confidential"?

You are confusing two different things. The court hearing before the judge is open to the public. The tweets posted were said by the judge in open court. The mediation sessions are done privately, and they are what is confidential.

[cscurlock]

1 hour ago, kbandwb said:

Is the Florida law about denying service based on vaccination status? or inability to ask about vaccination status at all?  or both?

 

The inability to ask for vaccination status which could lead to denying service.  The ask comes first.  The cruise lines have found a way around the law so its not an issue.

[dandeck]

"A consumer survey conducted over the Memorial Day weekend finds that 80%of likely cruisers would prefer to sail with a vaccine requirement in place."

 

Didn't take the survey, but add me to that 80%

[TNcruising02]

3 hours ago, geaux_aces said:

Our even an equal protection clause violation because Florida allows/requires schools (public and private) to ask for proof of numerous vaccinations before attending school.  If schools can ask, why can't cruise ships?

 

This state law has the likelihood of falling on numerous legal grounds.

Can schools deny admission based on covid vaccination status in Florida? I think the difference between covid vaccination and other vaccinations is that it is not yet FDA approved.  Florida's law is that a business can't deny service based on covid vaccination status.

[TNcruising02]

1 hour ago, dandeck said:

"A consumer survey conducted over the Memorial Day weekend finds that 80%of likely cruisers would prefer to sail with a vaccine requirement in place."

 

Didn't take the survey, but add me to that 80%

That's why I think that even on an unvaccinated cruise, the majority of people will either be vaccinated or children who aren't eligible.  I don't think there will be a huge percentage of cruisers who are not vaccinated.  RCL estimates that 90% of their cruisers are either vaccinated or plan to be.

[elcuchio24]

11 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

That's why I think that even on an unvaccinated cruise, the majority of people will either be vaccinated or children who aren't eligible.  I don't think there will be a huge percentage of cruisers who are not vaccinated.  RCL estimates that 90% of their cruisers are either vaccinated or plan to be.

 

Figuring out how to handle Kids who cant get the vaxx (plus have almost zero chance of serious infection) is a big issue to be worked out

[kbandwb]

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/state/judge-to-make-decision-soon-in-floridas-lawsuit-against-cdc-over-cruise-lines

 

Still no decision by the judge.