Is Holland America trying to drive away 4-star and above Mariners?

[rkacruiser]

10 minutes ago, aliaschief said:

We have no idea whether the executives at headquarters are competent,

 

I understand your thinking.  But, it has been the change of executives, their experience or the lack thereof, their thinking/reasoning that leads us to the discussion of whether HAL is a premium cruise line or not.  

[aliaschief]

1 minute ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I understand your thinking.  But, it has been the change of executives, their experience or the lack thereof, their thinking/reasoning that leads us to the discussion of whether HAL is a premium cruise line or not.  

Unless I’m privy to board meetings and inside information I cannot honestly state that executive management is at fault? Plus I’m sure not going to worry whether my Dam ship is labeled mass market or premium!

 

All that matters is we have cruised 28 days in the last few months and had a great time. Can’t wait to cruise over a 100 days next year? Hopefully!🤞

[rkacruiser]

2 minutes ago, aliaschief said:

Unless I’m privy to board meetings and inside information I cannot honestly state that executive management is at fault? Plus I’m sure not going to worry whether my Dam ship is labeled mass market or premium!

 

I don't care, either, about the marketing label on HAL.  But, based on the information that I obtain about the cruise industry, those at the helm in Seattle do make a difference in what we guests experience.  How else can one explain the butchering that was done to the Rotterdam and Veendam?  From where did those decisions to do this come?  The "sunglass architecture" that was applied to many ships above the Bridge:  where did that idea originate?  Why do I hear senior Officers complain about "micro-management" from Seattle that negatively impacts their time and their job?  

[Rcriley34]

Let’s get back to the the original question from the op, is HAl thing to run off 4 * mariners?   The answer is no, just an unfortunate system glitch.   If you are reasonable, Hal will make it right.  If you are like the average old age complainer on this board, good luck!     

[rkacruiser]

Permit me to include these thoughts in the mass market vs premium vs luxury discussion:

 

What category would one consider the Cunard Queens First Class to be?  If one dined at their Verandah Grills, would that be considered today's "luxury"?  Would their Cabin Class be premium?  Or mass market?  (Tourist Class would certainly be mass market.)  Where would Cunard's world cruise liner Caronia fit?  During such cruises, she was one class.  Luxury?  Premium?  In trans-Atlantic service:  First Class and Cabin Class.  Where would those categories fit for her?  

 

What category would Royal Viking Line now be placed?  At the time, they were considered "luxury" although the concept of "all inclusive" at not been conceived.  When I sailed on them, they were considered the "Royal Royce" of cruise lines.  And, they were in comparison to my previous of my highly regarded experiences on HAL.

 

What category would one place a booking in a Queens Grill or Princess Grill Suite on a current Cunard ship?  

 

 

[aliaschief]

1 minute ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I don't care, either, about the marketing label on HAL.  But, based on the information that I obtain about the cruise industry, those at the helm in Seattle do make a difference in what we guests experience.  How else can one explain the butchering that was done to the Rotterdam and Veendam?  From where did those decisions to do this come?  The "sunglass architecture" that was applied to many ships above the Bridge:  where did that idea originate?  Why do I hear senior Officers complain about "micro-management" from Seattle that negatively impacts their time and their job?  

Back to my original post and that is I cannot worry over things out of my control. I surely didn’t care about the Sea View changes on the Rotterdam and Veendam but I also had several of our most memorable cruises on both after reconfiguration. 

 

With our love for cruising I’m just not going to sit at home discussing who is to blame for these changes. I’m just going to sit at home complaining about how many days until my next cruise.😁🛳
 

 

[rkacruiser]

1 minute ago, aliaschief said:

Back to my original post and that is I cannot worry over things out of my control. I surely didn’t care about the Sea View changes on the Rotterdam and Veendam but I also had several of our most memorable cruises on both after reconfiguration. 

 

With our love for cruising I’m just not going to sit at home discussing who is to blame for these changes. I’m just going to sit at home complaining about how many days until my next cruise.😁🛳
 

 

 

I am of the philosophy that what is not broken does not need to be fixed.  Recent executives have tried to fix what was not broken.  

 

Have I sailed on ships that have had fixes that did not need to be?  Yes.  Did I enjoy them, yes, expect for a 21 day Caribbean cruise on the Noordam a few years ago.  Would I consider booking another HAL cruise?  Yes.  

 

But, Chief, you seem to keep missing my basic concern that what comes out of Seattle, with executives that do or do not have the experience that ought to be required, is missing more than it once was.  

 

It is a real shame that we cannot have a private message discussion of this on CC.  

[iancal]

There is broken from a customer perspective and broken from a cruise line performance perspective.

 

We are not privy to the fully loaded financials of HAL or indeed those of  each ship.  How do we know if HAL or individual HAL ships are performing financially to plan..  Or if they are performing anywhere near the the 'best in class' financial levels that Carnival Corp. no doubt measures each cruise line and each ship within their corporate umbrella. 

 

HAL, like any other cruise line, is not a social club.  It is a for profit business.   Investors want the best return possible.   It is why, during covid,  they disposed of ships that were either not performing or did not match future marketing direction.

[rkacruiser]

7 minutes ago, iancal said:

We are not privy to the fully loaded financials of HAL or indeed those of  each ship.  How do we know if HAL or individual HAL ships are performing financially to plan..  Or if they are performing anywhere near the the 'best in class' financial levels that Carnival Corp. no doubt measures each cruise line and each ship within their corporate umbrella. 

 

As a shareholder of more than 100 shares, it is impossible for one to obtain such information.  My Morgan Stanley advisor is unable to do so either.  

[bennybear]

3 hours ago, yarnsinger said:

This was originally the inaugural cruise for the Rijndam (now Rotterdam), which was delayed and the itinerary changed. Passengers who stayed booked received a significant amount of OBC ($250 each) for sticking with it. That was on top of $200 in OBC that came with the original onboard booking. In the end, the cruise was canceled altogether, and the ship sailed from Trieste to Amsterdam without passengers. All other sailings before the transatlantic last month were eventually canceled also.

 

As for our travel agent, I couldn't say enough wonderful things about her. She's not only competent, but responsive and pro-active, and was throughout the pandemic when she wasn't getting a dime in commission. This was not an issue she could deal with. She tried, believe me. The future cruise deposit for this trip was converted to future cruise credits with a bonus. We had the option of transferring it to another cruise in 2022 with a sort-of-but-not-quite similar itinerary, but it conflicted with one we already had scheduled, so we declined. HAL told our TA that we could cancel the Future Cruise Credit and repurchase the Future Cruise Deposit, but it's unclear whether any of the extra OBC would have stayed with the repurchase. I talked with the gentleman onboard the Nieuw Amsterdam who was booking cruises, who told me I should write to HAL with the details. I haven't done that yet. My point is that they shouldn't have instituted this policy in the first place. It was an equal opportunity bad policy. 

We too were booked on this for nearly two years, and changed from Ryndam to Rotterdam.  When we saw the writing on the wall we cancelled,. And then HAL cancelled,.  We did get a credit and FCC for our FCD as well as OBC that we were able to transfer, it sounds like you were maybe offered that. Perhaps check because ours was good until 2022 December.   

48 minutes ago, Rcriley34 said:

Let’s get back to the the original question from the op, is HAl thing to run off 4 * mariners?   The answer is no, just an unfortunate system glitch.   If you are reasonable, Hal will make it right.  If you are like the average old age complainer on this board, good luck!     

I think the problem is the inconsistency, at times HAL treats you very well, at other times let’s just say the service is severely lacking and a good TA can help. 
 

43 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

Permit me to include these thoughts in the mass market vs premium vs luxury discussion:

 

What category would one consider the Cunard Queens First Class to be?  If one dined at their Verandah Grills, would that be considered today's "luxury"?  Would their Cabin Class be premium?  Or mass market?  (Tourist Class would certainly be mass market.)  Where would Cunard's world cruise liner Caronia fit?  During such cruises, she was one class.  Luxury?  Premium?  In trans-Atlantic service:  First Class and Cabin Class.  Where would those categories fit for her?  

 

What category would Royal Viking Line now be placed?  At the time, they were considered "luxury" although the concept of "all inclusive" at not been conceived.  When I sailed on them, they were considered the "Royal Royce" of cruise lines.  And, they were in comparison to my previous of my highly regarded experiences on HAL.

 

What category would one place a booking in a Queens Grill or Princess Grill Suite on a current Cunard ship?  

 

 

We have only sailed on steerage class on Cunard.  While the ships are beautiful, the food is much below HAL in the MDR although the buffet and high teas are wonderful.  I really don’t like the class system and prefer the treatment on HAL that is good no matter if I am in a Neptune or oceanview.  

[rkacruiser]

7 minutes ago, bennybear said:

We have only sailed on steerage class on Cunard.  While the ships are beautiful, the food is much below HAL in the MDR although the buffet and high teas are wonderful.  I really don’t like the class system and prefer the treatment on HAL that is good no matter if I am in a Neptune or oceanview.

 

Yes, I was on Queen Mary 2 in steerage in an in-hull veranda stateroom which was very nice and I was pleased.  Agree, the Britannia Restaurant's dinner menu lacks choices in comparison with HAL; preparation, presentation, and service was as good as HAL.  (A very officious Assistant Maitre d' who was offensive to those of us at our table was told what I thought of his "service", which then improved.  Never had that experience on any HAL vessel)  Breakfast in the MDR provided the most satisfactory meals.  Not impressed with King's Court, but the Queen's Room Teas were delightful.  

 

I agree that the Class system is something that I had not experienced.  But, having sailed on MSC Meraviglia as a Yacht Club guest, there is a difference that I enjoyed.  YC is different than the Cunard Grills in some ways, though.  

[yarnsinger]

On 11/19/2021 at 8:50 AM, Desdemona01 said:

There was absolutely no indication that this had happened,  Even  during her initial contact with HAL, they could not explain it.

Come to think of it, I don't think we ever received any official notification of the cancelation of the inaugural cruise. I read about it in a post from Seth Wayne on Facebook. Ironically, some people gave him grief for posting it before they'd heard from HAL. Personally, I'm glad he did.

 

Bottom line, they're short-handed. They're doing the best they can. Things get messed up, and it's a royal pain. The Pollyanna in me hopes that in the end, all will be well and HAL will make things right.

[yarnsinger]

8 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Yes, I was on Queen Mary 2 in steerage in an in-hull veranda stateroom which was very nice and I was pleased.  Agree, the Britannia Restaurant's dinner menu lacks choices in comparison with HAL; preparation, presentation, and service was as good as HAL.  (A very officious Assistant Maitre d' who was offensive to those of us at our table was told what I thought of his "service", which then improved.  Never had that experience on any HAL vessel)  Breakfast in the MDR provided the most satisfactory meals.  Not impressed with King's Court, but the Queen's Room Teas were delightful.  

 

I agree that the Class system is something that I had not experienced.  But, having sailed on MSC Meraviglia as a Yacht Club guest, there is a difference that I enjoyed.  YC is different than the Cunard Grills in some ways, though.  

So question: We have an obstructed balcony reserved on our TA to get us to Europe next fall. I'm not sure what that means in terms of "class." We figured as long as we were going to be at sea the whole time, the view wasn't as important as it would be otherwise, and the next level up was a whole lot more expensive. Any idea what to expect in comparison to what we see on HAL?

[sailingdutchy]

2 hours ago, CHPURSER said:

If you set your expectations low enough, just about anything seems like a good value.

HAL and Carnival Cruise Line are proof of that idea.

 

Wondering why you are taking part in this discussion about Holland America , just to spout this kind of stuff , wonder what kind of employee you were when you worked there Mr Purser and why you are not there any longer .

[Navybikermom]

@kazu I agree with you about Prinsendam. I was blessed to have sailed on her twice and really miss the old gal. I was on an 8-day segment of a world cruise and received the same commemorative plate that the rest of the people did. It has a place of honor in my china cabinet next to all the ship tiles ☺️. I stick with HAL for the smaller ships and the price, but I wish they would come back with another “Elegant Explorer”! I don’t have enough years left to start over with another cruise line and get to the same perk level. 

[nocl]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I don't care, either, about the marketing label on HAL.  But, based on the information that I obtain about the cruise industry, those at the helm in Seattle do make a difference in what we guests experience.  How else can one explain the butchering that was done to the Rotterdam and Veendam?  From where did those decisions to do this come?  The "sunglass architecture" that was applied to many ships above the Bridge:  where did that idea originate?  Why do I hear senior Officers complain about "micro-management" from Seattle that negatively impacts their time and their job?  

How many employees of major companies do you know that have not complained about corporate decisions in one form or another?

 

Keep in mind it is the mission of senior management to grow the company and its profits.  While their decisions to do that will match some of their customers, it clearly will not match all of its customers.

 

HAL was a cruise line that had a reputation of having the oldest demographic of any of the competing cruise lines. While it had a lower average ship size, it was also having to deal with those inefficiencies, at a time when its competition was changing and modernizing.  A lot of long term HAL cruisers might not like the changes, but the demographics are starting to reflect that they are attracting younger passengers.

 

As far as some of the other changes all of the cruise lines operate in a business that is capital intensive with limited pricing power (after all they are not only competing with other cruise lines but the entire travel industry.  How many complaints have we seen on CC over even very minor cost increases or cutbacks).  That has resulted in cutbacks across all of the mainstream lines HAL included compared to 10-20 years ago.  Even over the past 5 years (prior to COVID) where improved ship economics resulting from larger average ship sizes has resulted in the most profitable years in cruise line history, the cruise lines have changed, they have put new programs in place trying to lock in onboard spend by inclusive fares, they have gone to having to pay for specialty dining to get the quality that main dining was 20 years ago. 

 

There is not a cruise line out there that is the same as it was 10-20 years in the past, they will not be the same 10-20 years in the future.  If they try to be they will be gone. They cannot depend upon their existing customer base, especially if that customer base is the oldest demographic in the industry.  They have to attract new customers, even if that alienates some of their existing ones.

[nocl]

14 minutes ago, Navybikermom said:

@kazu I agree with you about Prinsendam. I was blessed to have sailed on her twice and really miss the old gal. I was on an 8-day segment of a world cruise and received the same commemorative plate that the rest of the people did. It has a place of honor in my china cabinet next to all the ship tiles ☺️. I stick with HAL for the smaller ships and the price, but I wish they would come back with another “Elegant Explorer”! I don’t have enough years left to start over with another cruise line and get to the same perk level. 

Not going to happen with HAL.  Economics have changed.  The capital cost per passenger in a 1000 passenger ship is 1.5 to 1.75  the cost of a 2000 passenger ship.  Couple that with the high cost per passenger in operating costs means that you will not see them in main stream lines, except for some expedition ships such as Celebrities that sail in very specific areas that command a 3-4X the fares in their regular ships.

 

That is why smaller ship size is a feature of cruise lines with fares 2-4 times the normal fare of HAL.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Navybikermom said:

I wish they would come back with another “Elegant Explorer”! I don’t have enough years left to start over with another cruise line and get to the same perk level. 

 

I don't mean any offense, but this just makes no sense to me. Why would you stay with a line that no longer meets your needs just because you have reached a certain perk level?  To me that is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Look at the big picture. There is no reason to stick with any cruise line if they are not providing you with an overall good experience. Please at least look at other possibilities. If you like small ships, Azamara offers a lot of the things many liked about Prinsendam, for example.

 

[terrydtx]

7 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I don't mean any offense, but this just makes no sense to me. Why would you stay with a line that no longer meets your needs just because you have reached a certain perk level?  To me that is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Look at the big picture. There is no reason to stick with any cruise line if they are not providing you with an overall good experience. Please at least look at other possibilities. If you like small ships, Azamara offers a lot of the things many liked about Prinsendam, for example.

 

I agree, after our next and last HAL cruise next year we will be 4 star and we are walking away from them and their loyalty program. We booked the Oosterdam next year to use up our FCC and to match up with our Oceania cruise prior to it. Perk levels and loyalty programs mean nothing to us if the product is not worthy of our business. For example, we have walked away from American Airlines and several hundred thousand miles because of their poor service and product. We are using those miles to buy tickets for our kids to fly to vacations.

 

We retired last year and after saving and investing wisely for 45+ years we want something better in a cruise line. This year we discovered what Celebrity has to offer suite guests in their Retreat Class and what Oceania offers in a Premium cruise line. IMO HAL does not offer anything close to what we can now afford and get from Celebrity and Oceania. We have 6 future cruises booked with both cruise lines in the next 3 years.

Edited November 21, 2021 by terrydtx

[KirkNC]

19 hours ago, yarnsinger said:

 I reached 100 days on our recent cruise, but wasn't invited to the ceremony honoring medallion recipients. I only knew it was happening because fellow travelers who had reached silver and above mentioned it to me. The bronze medallion was just on my bed with a note. What's the point? 

 

 Seriously, are people used to getting free laundry and other Mariner perks going to switch to another line where they start at the beginning?

 

 

We received our Platinum medallion the same way, just appeared on our bed one night.

 

You say other Mariner perks like its an extensive list.  Free laundry is probably the best of the bunch, a free Pinnacle dinner and priority tendering (which more times than not is suspended on longer cruises).  None of those impact our decision which line to book.  If you look at some other lines loyalty programs HAL's looks right weak.

[mightycruisequeen]

5 hours ago, CHPURSER said:

 Carnival saved the company from bankruptcy, then destroyed it with a Walmart Business Plan.

I am shocked that people are still dumb enough to expect HAL to somehow get better. Its not going to happen. At the same time, there are so many new cruise lines that are running circles around HAL, with better food, better service, better ships, better itineraries, better entertainment, better pricing.

I'm wondering what cruise lines you're saying are running circles around HAL for food, service, ships, itineraries, entertainment and pricing?  I'm asking sincerely.

 

[iancal]

14 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

As a shareholder of more than 100 shares, it is impossible for one to obtain such information.  My Morgan Stanley advisor is unable to do so either.  

Nor should you.  It is company confidential, competitive information.

[nocl]

17 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

Permit me to include these thoughts in the mass market vs premium vs luxury discussion:

 

What category would one consider the Cunard Queens First Class to be?  If one dined at their Verandah Grills, would that be considered today's "luxury"?  Would their Cabin Class be premium?  Or mass market?  (Tourist Class would certainly be mass market.)  Where would Cunard's world cruise liner Caronia fit?  During such cruises, she was one class.  Luxury?  Premium?  In trans-Atlantic service:  First Class and Cabin Class.  Where would those categories fit for her?  

 

What category would Royal Viking Line now be placed?  At the time, they were considered "luxury" although the concept of "all inclusive" at not been conceived.  When I sailed on them, they were considered the "Royal Royce" of cruise lines.  And, they were in comparison to my previous of my highly regarded experiences on HAL.

 

What category would one place a booking in a Queens Grill or Princess Grill Suite on a current Cunard ship?  

 

 

Oh you have all kinds of things being done by the mass market lines in these days of very large ships and competition such as the ship with in a ship model such as what you mentioned where they try and create the sense of exclusivity and luxury on an otherwise mass market ship. You have other examples such as the fares with inclusions trying to duplicate some of the all inclusive features.

 

 Those do not change the category of a line, only show a return of ticket classes. Cunard which retained the most characteristic of the old passenger liners, never really lost all of the class structure whereas most of the mainstream lines went totally away and now with the ever larger ship sizes have returned to them in their efforts to broaden out their offerings.

[terrydtx]

5 minutes ago, nocl said:

Oh you have all kinds of things being done by the mass market lines in these days of very large ships and competition such as the ship with in a ship model such as what you mentioned where they try and create the sense of exclusivity and luxury on an otherwise mass market ship

This is exactly why we are sailing with Celebrity in their Retreat Suites class going forward.

[nocl]

7 hours ago, CHPURSER said:

Why am I taking part in this discussion?

I worked for HAL longer than you sailed there, investing a large part of my life to make HAL better.

I was named Employee of the Year and received a substantial Golden Parachute when I departed.

I was treated extremely well by the company and have no complaints.

As I mentioned earlier, I was fed up with constantly apologizing to our guests for the bad decisions made by senior management. I just couldn't take it any longer, and I was no longer able to do anything to improve the situation. 

Carnival saved the company from bankruptcy, then destroyed it with a Walmart Business Plan.

I am shocked that people are still dumb enough to expect HAL to somehow get better. Its not going to happen. At the same time, there are so many new cruise lines that are running circles around HAL, with better food, better service, better ships, better itineraries, better entertainment, better pricing.

Than you for confirming that you have an ax to grind.

 

Actually if you go back and look at all of the financial data the sail to Carnival was not because HAL was close to bankruptcy or that the business was not doing well. The business was actually growing.  The decision was a business one  to cash out. That there  were better uses for the money instead of having to tie up increasing amounts of money in competition with other growing lines. Basically the family that were the majority owner decided that they could do other things with the cash, it was sold at a premium, not at fire sale prices like most lines.

Edited November 21, 2021 by nocl