Update on P&O Insurance Issues

[wowzz]

8 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

A larger negotiated percentage of total premia paid?

You old cynic !

 

[Bill Y]

2 hours ago, jeanlyon said:

yes very interesting.  It will be good to hear what P&O says to that.

 

The longer I don't cruise for, the less interested I have become.  I'm almost sorry I have 2 cruises moved to 2023!!  Next thing is they will sell Aurora and I won't be going at all!

We too have begun to feel like that, the prospect of three cruised being cancelled in 2020 we thought would have us climbing the walls in frustration, however we got over it and was glad that we did not have to travel. Then when balance was due in 2021 for two river cruises we were so relived that we were allowed to transfer them to this year. We used our FCC deposits to book for the Canaries for 2023 when the 23/24 cruises became available but it was the least of evils as the new cruises were not inspiring. It’s probably a case of been there done that and got the tee shirt. So wondering if we have done the right thing booking another cruise at the moment as the ongoing situation can hardly be said to be predictable or stress free.

[terrierjohn]

2 hours ago, wowzz said:

Will you be passing on the HE reply to your contacts in P&O?

It will be interesting to hear how they justify the fact that their nominated insurance provider specifically states that the cover provided does not cover any individual testing negative,  but forced to disembark. 

It was also interesting to note that HE believe the cruise lines are not disembarking passengers, but quarantining on board and returning them to the home port.

[Teddy123]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

I had hoped since July there may have been some changes.  I  afraid nothing is changed in any way. We cannot force insurers so our only leverage is via FCA to name these companies to ask the FCA to censure them (as they did yesterday regarding Halifax and Avanti) for not showing clearly there is this exclusion.

 

Have you asked Staysure the question in the plain terms format we have used for Holiday Extras? I did not contact them in my "round robin" because I was aware you had.

 

I am thinking of collecting and collating all the replies and forwarding them to P&O, copied to the unfair contracts team at the FCA.  Any opinions?

 

Cheers!

There is a clear statement from HE that offloaded negative passengers are not covered.  If you are willing to take it on, I would suggest simply quoting this part of their reply to P&O, contrasting it with the statement on P&O's website, and asking them to justify thier position (on their recommendation and/or their "insurer pays" stance). You could also highlight HE's statement about offloading being "not a common insured event".

[Megabear2]

And there's more, to coin a phrase:

 

HE further confirmation

 

Quote

 

Thank you for your further reply.

I can confirm that our policies purchased from August 2021 onwards state the following:

Section 1: Emergency medical and repatriation expenses, page 24, under the what is covered section it states reasonable additional travel and accommodation expenses (room only) for you to extend your stay until you are medically fit to return to the United Kingdom.  

Section 3: Curtailment and loss of holiday, page 29, it is stated that we provide cover for necessary and unavoidable Curtailment of, or Loss of Holiday on, an Insured Journey as a result of: 1. The death, Bodily Injury or Illness, as certified by a Medical Practitioner, of You, Your Relative, Colleague or travelling companion or of a friend with whom You had arranged to stay. 

Therefore, these sections will only provide cover for additional accommodation if it is deemed medically necessary by the ship’s doctors and has been agreed with the travel insurance assistance team. 

I do apologise that our current policies do not meet your needs and I hope the above has clarified where this is detailed within our policy documents. 

If your family member is unhappy with their policy please ask them to contact us directly.
 

 

[wowzz]

8 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

And there's more, to coin a phrase:

 

HE further confirmation

 

Quote

 

Thank you for your further reply.

I can confirm that our policies purchased from August 2021 onwards state the following:

Section 1: Emergency medical and repatriation expenses, page 24, under the what is covered section it states reasonable additional travel and accommodation expenses (room only) for you to extend your stay until you are medically fit to return to the United Kingdom.  

Section 3: Curtailment and loss of holiday, page 29, it is stated that we provide cover for necessary and unavoidable Curtailment of, or Loss of Holiday on, an Insured Journey as a result of: 1. The death, Bodily Injury or Illness, as certified by a Medical Practitioner, of You, Your Relative, Colleague or travelling companion or of a friend with whom You had arranged to stay. 

Therefore, these sections will only provide cover for additional accommodation if it is deemed medically necessary by the ship’s doctors and has been agreed with the travel insurance assistance team. 

I do apologise that our current policies do not meet your needs and I hope the above has clarified where this is detailed within our policy documents. 

If your family member is unhappy with their policy please ask them to contact us directly.
 

 

I can't see how P&O can continue to recommend HE, when HE have specifically said they will not cover what P&O say you should have !

[silversurf]

This is quite worrying for disabled cruisers. I need a wheelchair for more than a very short distance, which my partner pushes. I could not travel on my own or manage luggage. I do not drive so my partner always does the driving.

I could not manage alone on a ship, nor in a quarantine hotel, especially if I was expected to get home on my own.

I wonder how an insurance company would handle this if either of us were offloaded from our cruise due to COVID.

[Megabear2]

The deed is done ... I think my halo has slipped! Let's hope it doesn't choke me!

 

Quote

 

In October 2021 I had occasion to draw your attention to an apparent lack of insurance cover in the UK market for passengers offloaded from your ships abroad as negative tested contacts of people testing positive with Covid.  Following this your office agreed with my findings, particularly in respect of your recommended insurer, Holiday Extras.  I was informed that the matter was being discussed at the very highest level within Carnival UK as it had been believed at the recommencement of sailling that this quarantine scenario would be covered under cruise Covid cover and this apparent omission was a total surprise.

 

As may be recalled my concerns in particular were due to my family group of eight, including an octogenarian aunt, being booked on Aurora on 1 April 2022 to the Canary Islands.  I was actually away on one of your Caribbean cruises returning on 1 January so my family and I had paid, as per our booking terms, our outstanding balance for this cruise in December. 

 

On my return I was contacted by my aunt and two of my brothers in law to ask if I had seen the new terms on P&O's website.  I had not so looked them up, the text as below is what I was directed to:

 

"The framework of protocols for cruise ships can differ slightly to those on land or to other forms of travel and some ports, such as those in Spain, require guests and their close contacts who have tested positive to disembark to continue the period of isolation ashore in that country. 

In situations where guests are required to disembark the ship, we shall always work with the local authorities to secure the most appropriate accommodation to continue the period of isolation. In most instances, these will be pre-determined hotels which have been identified as ones able to accommodate positive cases of COVID-19. The guest’s travel insurance provider will handle all matters in relation to their isolation stay and repatriation home, providing they took adequate COVID-19 coverage on their policy. Guests will be able to make a complimentary call from the ship to their insurance provider to advise of their disembarkation and should email their positive test result to them as soon possible. Our dedicated support team will provide ongoing support to any guests in these circumstances."

 

Reading this it appears to state that positive testers will be removed from the ship into quarantine. There is no further mention of their negative partner or close associate although we know that this has been occurring as you have previously confirmed this.  The Spanish Government protocols clearly insist upon this removal and your new term clearly acknowledges this as a high possibility.

 

As a consequence I contacted the insurance companies my family are insured with. For your information these are Holiday Extras, Admiral, Staysure, Cover for You and Halifax.  I also contacted my husband's insurer Avanti although on this occasion he is not travelling with the group.  I have received the following reply from Holiday Extras, your recommended insurer who my brother in law and aunt purchased policies from on your recommendation:

 

Quote

 

All of our policies include cover if you were to need emergency medical assistance due to contracting COVID-19 whilst you were away, including if the travel insurance assistance team and the ship’s doctors recommend disembarkation at the next port.

If you were to test positive for COVID-19 and didn't need emergency medical assistance or had been identified as a ‘close contact’ of a positive case, there would be no cover if the travel insurance assistance team and the ship’s doctors recommend the passenger quarantines on board, but the port authority forces disembarkation. - After some market research we have concluded this is not a common insured event within the current UK Travel Insurance market.

It’s worth noting that at this point the UK Chamber of Shipping suggests passengers are quarantined onboard for the duration of their illness and that it is the cruise operator’s responsibility to ensure the passenger are looked after and can get home safe if disembarked.

 

Unquote

 

This reply clearly states in the second paragraph that a negative testing offloaded passenger has no cover under their policy purchased from your recommended insurer.  They refer to market research showing this is not a common insured event within the UK travel insurance market.   

 

In light of your term outlined above could you please explain how "The guest’s travel insurance provider will handle all matters in relation to their isolation stay and repatriation home, providing they took adequate COVID-19 coverage on their policy" will work for those offloaded with negative tests when research and your own insurer states that cover is not available for anyone affected by this issue?

 

You will note that your recommended insurer states that "passengers are quarantined onboard for the duration of their illness and that it is the cruise operator’s responsibility to ensure the passenger are looked after and can get home safe if disembarked."  This sounds fine in principle but your amendment of January 2022 flies totally in the face of this assumption regarding passengers travelling to Spain and her islands which, does of course include my family.  How are you assisting and who is paying have been my main question since October as you do not address it anywhere in your booking conditions.

 

I have asked countless times for comfort to be issued to passengers affected by this possible scenario in the form of confirmation that this responsibility to ensure the passengers are looked after and can get home safe if disembarked as it is put by Holiday Extras.  This has been strenuously resisted by Carnival Group as being opening the door for insurers not to pay.

 

We are now in a position where you are actively warning passengers they may be offloaded and they must have full appropriate insurance and yet your recommended insurer is stating it is not a common insured event within the UK market.  Effectively passengers are being asked to travel with the knowledge they may have to find several thousands pounds per person upfront with no way of insuring that risk.  This is clearly totally unacceptable.

 

You may be interested to know I have spoken to the FCA regarding this issue and they have confirmed where no cover is available to policy buyers this scenario is serious enough that they believe it should be listed as a specific inclusion or exclusion so that passengers have fall back to the cruise line who may well be aware that cover is unavailable but prefer to keep passengers uninformed to suit their own purposes.

 

I can confirm I have found a few companies who have confirmed they will cover passengers for this type of quarantine, including Allianz and insurers attached to various UK bank accounts.  Under those circumstances might I suggest that you consider seriously changing your recommended insurer to one of those who will fully cover your passengers?

 

In the meantime I await your reply and comments on this issue so that I may calm the fears of at least four of my family group who are worried about travelling on the cruise they were so looking forward to.

 

Kind regards

[bobstheboy]

I bought HE insurance specifically to be sure I was fully covered and have no trouble with P&O. 

 

Like many others I do not read every paragraph, believing it was  annual policy fit for purpose, especially for cruises and Covid.  P&O have a duty of care to customers purchasing their recommended insurance. I hope they sort this out.

[smokey01]

14 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

 

 

I can confirm I have found a few companies who have confirmed they will cover passengers for this type of quarantine, including Allianz and insurers attached to various UK bank accounts.  Under those circumstances might I suggest that you consider seriously changing your recommended insurer to one of those who will fully cover your passengers?

 

Hi Megabear2,

 

please can you confirm if Nationwide FlexPlus travel insurance is one that you know does include this cover

[Megabear2]

2 hours ago, smokey01 said:

Hi Megabear2,

 

please can you confirm if Nationwide FlexPlus travel insurance is one that you know does include this cover

Nationwide appear to cover quarantine in some form.  They have been asked previously but did not answer.  As an account holder might I suggest you give them a call and ask the question sent to HE to get a definitive answer. 

 

On the subject of HE if anyone has a policy purchased before August 2021 they apparently have different terms and conditions.  I am attempting to get my aunt's policy number to follow up with Liz Gray who contacted me overnight.  Does anyone else have one of these policies please.

[clearblueseas]

This is the straightforward reply my travel companions received from Staysure today.

‘’ Thank you for your email.      In response to your questions please see below;    Sadly, any costs incurred due to a change in list, or restrictions etc. including but not limited to additional testing and hotel quarantine, cannot be claimed on your travel insurance.  We can  only cover costs if you were to get a positive test.      I am sorry for the inconvenience. “   Quite unbelievable and very worrying indeed.

[lujaha]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

Nationwide appear to cover quarantine in some form.  They have been asked previously but did not answer.  As an account holder might I suggest you give them a call and ask the question sent to HE to get a definitive answer. 

 

On the subject of HE if anyone has a policy purchased before August 2021 they apparently have different terms and conditions.  I am attempting to get my aunt's policy number to follow up with Liz Gray who contacted me overnight.  Does anyone else have one of these policies please.

Hi Megabear.  I have an annual policy with HE taken out 19th July 21.  What would you like me to do?

 

p

[clearblueseas]

Don’t know if anyone find some useful information in this as it’s a bit too deep for me. It’s the EU shipping directive.

 

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/COVID-CRUISE-GUIDANCE-revision-1-May-2021.pdf

[bee-ess]

1 hour ago, clearblueseas said:

This is the straightforward reply my travel companions received from Staysure today.

‘’ Thank you for your email.      In response to your questions please see below;    Sadly, any costs incurred due to a change in list, or restrictions etc. including but not limited to additional testing and hotel quarantine, cannot be claimed on your travel insurance.  We can  only cover costs if you were to get a positive test.      I am sorry for the inconvenience. “   Quite unbelievable and very worrying indeed.

Thanks for this - its certainly a straightforward reply, but not the one we wanted as we are insured with Staysure. I agree this whole situation is unbelievable.

Edited January 19, 2022 by bee-ess

[Megabear2]

41 minutes ago, lujaha said:

Hi Megabear.  I have an annual policy with HE taken out 19th July 21.  What would you like me to do?

 

p

Hello.  Would you be able to send the policy number to Liz Gray and ask the question - say you have been told that the terms are different for policies bought before August.

 

I'm trying to get hold of my aunt for her policy number but she's off on a jaunt at present!

 

support@holidayextrashelp.zendesk.com

 

 

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, clearblueseas said:

This is the straightforward reply my travel companions received from Staysure today.

‘’ Thank you for your email.      In response to your questions please see below;    Sadly, any costs incurred due to a change in list, or restrictions etc. including but not limited to additional testing and hotel quarantine, cannot be claimed on your travel insurance.  We can  only cover costs if you were to get a positive test.      I am sorry for the inconvenience. “   Quite unbelievable and very worrying indeed.

In an effort to draw attention to this in the "right places" would you have time to complain to FCA pointing out you thought you were buying a full coverage policy.

 

We will only ever get change if we make sure those in charge are aware there's an issue.

 

https://www.fca.org.uk/contact

[Megabear2]

13 minutes ago, bee-ess said:

Thanks for this - it certainly a straightforward reply, but not the one we wanted as we are insured with Staysure. I agree this whole situation is unbelievable.

Please see reply to clearblueskies re FCA.  Might be worth dropping a line to P&O as well if you have time.

 

If they get lots of people saying the same thing they might realise its urgent.

 

https://www.fca.org.uk/contact

 

[lujaha]

11 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Hello.  Would you be able to send the policy number to Liz Gray and ask the question - say you have been told that the terms are different for policies bought before August.

 

I'm trying to get hold of my aunt for her policy number but she's off on a jaunt at present!

 

support@holidayextrashelp.zendesk.com

 

 

Megabear, I have to apologise.  I asked my husband what date we took the policy out as he had the paperwork in front of him.  He told me the 19th August.  I just checked my emails for the policy number to contact HE and it is 18th September!  Just as well it is me who does all these arrangements, I dread to think.  

 

[lujaha]

Just now, lujaha said:

Megabear, I have to apologise.  I asked my husband what date we took the policy out as he had the paperwork in front of him.  He told me the 19th August.  I just checked my emails for the policy number to contact HE and it is 18th September!  Just as well it is me who does all these arrangements, I dread to think.  

 

Oh dear I meant 18th July.  What a pair we are.

[Megabear2]

10 minutes ago, lujaha said:

Oh dear I meant 18th July.  What a pair we are.

Never mind, all this is enough to confuse anyone.

[clearblueseas]

Have written to those you mentioned.

[cruising nanagrandad]

Megabear2,  Thanks for all your good work on this issue.  I would like to make an observation regarding the response from Holiday Extras. The relevant part is below....

 

" If you were to test positive for COVID-19 and didn't need emergency medical assistance or had been identified as a ‘close contact’ of a positive case, there would be no cover if the travel insurance assistance team and the ship’s doctors recommend the passenger quarantines on board, but the port authority forces disembarkation. "

 

My reading of their response  is that there would be NO cover for the passenger testing positive and any negative testing close contact if Holiday Extra and the ships doctor recommend staying on board but the local authorities insist on disembarkation.  The only basis it seems that cover would apply is when Holiday Extra and the ships doctor agree the positive testing passenger needs emergency medical assistance onshore, but that cover would NOT extend to any negative testing close contact  I suspect that most of those passengers that have and will be disembarked are not emergency cases so will find themselves uninsured whether testing positive or otherwise.   

[Megabear2]

8 minutes ago, cruising nanagrandad said:

Megabear2,  Thanks for all your good work on this issue.  I would like to make an observation regarding the response from Holiday Extras. The relevant part is below....

 

" If you were to test positive for COVID-19 and didn't need emergency medical assistance or had been identified as a ‘close contact’ of a positive case, there would be no cover if the travel insurance assistance team and the ship’s doctors recommend the passenger quarantines on board, but the port authority forces disembarkation. "

 

My reading of their response  is that there would be NO cover for the passenger testing positive and any negative testing close contact if Holiday Extra and the ships doctor recommend staying on board but the local authorities insist on disembarkation.  The only basis it seems that cover would apply is when Holiday Extra and the ships doctor agree the positive testing passenger needs emergency medical assistance onshore, but that cover would NOT extend to any negative testing close contact  I suspect that most of those passengers that have and will be disembarked are not emergency cases so will find themselves uninsured whether testing positive or otherwise.   

I would agree which is why I await a reply to a supplementary question.

[Bin man]

Hi Megabear 2 Just received from avanti on your questions I asked 

Thank you for your email.

 

It states in our policy wording on page 30:

 

We will pay up to the amount shown in the table of benefits under section 3a Emergency Medical & Repatriation expenses for each insured person who contracts COVID-19, as proven by a medically approved test showing a positive result for COVID-19, during an insured trip outside the United Kingdom for the following:

 

c) additional travel and accommodation costs as authorised by our Assistance Company up until our Medical Officer advises that you can be repatriated home.

 

d) additional travelling costs to repatriate you home when you are denied boarding on your pre-booked return travel due to you contracting COVID-19

 

e) a benefit payment of £20 per complete 24-hour period up to £300 where you are ordered into self-isolation in your holiday accommodation by a relevant Government authority, as a result of you contracting COVID-19.

 

We would cover the person that tested positive. Anyone else would be on a claim-by-claim basis so this would need to be deemed necessary by our medical officer.

 

I hope this answers your question for you.

 

Kind regards,