Update on P&O Insurance Issues

[Megabear2]

Following the email from Holiday Extras which I posted on the now locked Covid on Iona board, I have followed up as follows with Matthew, copied to his representative, Liz Gray.

 

Quote

 

Dear Matthew,

 

Thank you for your prompt response which was much appreciated.  I have now received a follow up email from Liz Gray on your behalf. Ms Gray, it appears, has been instructed to look at this as a complaint rather than as an overall enquiry to you as the CEO of Holiday Extras as to what the policies you are selling actually will cover.

 

I appreciate that Liz will complete a full investigation but note that this is scheduled to take some time, in the normal course within 8 weeks but hopefully expedited to 7-10 days.   This is an inordinate amount of time to answer what is a simple question:

 

In the event that a passenger on a cruise ship is asked to leave the vessel as a close contact of a positively tested passenger or crew member while they themselves have a negative test, will the insurance policy purchased from Holiday Extras cover their costs of quarantine including but not limited to accommodation, food and sustenance, sundries such as internet and telephone access, transportation to and from the quarantine premises, covid testing while in quarantine, nursing/doctors' costs for administering and documenting these required tests and repatriation to the United Kingdom.

 

I do, of course, welcome a full investigation into how this matter has to date been handled, but do feel that a straightforward answer to the above question is one you can answer yes or no to without need to investigate.

 

If the issue is too complex to enable this reply, I would be grateful for an explanation as to why by return.

 

Your company is the recommended supplier of insurance products for two of the leading cruise lines in the UK market, P&O and Cunard.  As such, it is surely not too much to ask if you are aware of the terms and conditions of the policies you sell in their name. 

 

It is a fact that sadly both of these companies have had Covid outbreaks on some ships since international cruising recommenced in October, with both negative and positive passengers disembarked in foreign ports.  As such you should, surely, be in a position to confirm the outcome (in general, not of course on an individual basis) for any negative tested close contacts and whether the costs incurred in quarantine by these passengers were met in full, in part or not all.

 

I would find it difficult to believe that you and your directors would not be aware of these events as they are, of course, extremely pertinent to your relationship with the cruise lines.

 

As I stated in my earlier email, my family's policies were bought as annual policies when TIF was the underwriter. I am aware this is now Great Lakes and have read online your current documentation in case the underwriter change impacted the policy.  I can find no such change.

 

I look forward to hearing from you and Liz with a direct answer to my question above.

 

Thank you for your help.

 

Unquote 

[Eddie99]

Megabear - would it be a good idea to adjust your thread title to include the term P&O, to ensure it is relevant and needs to stay here, not be whisked away to UK Cruisers or some such?

 

Keep up the good work - you’re enjoying it, aren’t you?

[Teddy123]

5 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Following the email from Holiday Extras which I posted on the now locked Covid on Iona board, I have followed up as follows with Matthew, copied to his representative, Liz Gray.

 

Quote

 

Dear Matthew,

 

Thank you for your prompt response which was much appreciated.  I have now received a follow up email from Liz Gray on your behalf. Ms Gray, it appears, has been instructed to look at this as a complaint rather than as an overall enquiry to you as the CEO of Holiday Extras as to what the policies you are selling actually will cover.

 

I appreciate that Liz will complete a full investigation but note that this is scheduled to take some time, in the normal course within 8 weeks but hopefully expedited to 7-10 days.   This is an inordinate amount of time to answer what is a simple question:

 

In the event that a passenger on a cruise ship is asked to leave the vessel as a close contact of a positively tested passenger or crew member while they themselves have a negative test, will the insurance policy purchased from Holiday Extras cover their costs of quarantine including but not limited to accommodation, food and sustenance, sundries such as internet and telephone access, transportation to and from the quarantine premises, covid testing while in quarantine, nursing/doctors' costs for administering and documenting these required tests and repatriation to the United Kingdom.

 

I do, of course, welcome a full investigation into how this matter has to date been handled, but do feel that a straightforward answer to the above question is one you can answer yes or no to without need to investigate.

 

If the issue is too complex to enable this reply, I would be grateful for an explanation as to why by return.

 

Your company is the recommended supplier of insurance products for two of the leading cruise lines in the UK market, P&O and Cunard.  As such, it is surely not too much to ask if you are aware of the terms and conditions of the policies you sell in their name. 

 

It is a fact that sadly both of these companies have had Covid outbreaks on some ships since international cruising recommenced in October, with both negative and positive passengers disembarked in foreign ports.  As such you should, surely, be in a position to confirm the outcome (in general, not of course on an individual basis) for any negative tested close contacts and whether the costs incurred in quarantine by these passengers were met in full, in part or not all.

 

I would find it difficult to believe that you and your directors would not be aware of these events as they are, of course, extremely pertinent to your relationship with the cruise lines.

 

As I stated in my earlier email, my family's policies were bought as annual policies when TIF was the underwriter. I am aware this is now Great Lakes and have read online your current documentation in case the underwriter change impacted the policy.  I can find no such change.

 

I look forward to hearing from you and Liz with a direct answer to my question above.

 

Thank you for your help.

 

Unquote 

Thanks for putting this together.  Some simple, direct questions - let's see if we get some answers in the same vein (anybody taking bets?).

[jeanlyon]

Perfectly stated.  I shall await the answer with interest!

[Megabear2]

12 minutes ago, Eddie99 said:

Megabear - would it be a good idea to adjust your thread title to include the term P&O, to ensure it is relevant and needs to stay here, not be whisked away to UK Cruisers or some such?

 

Keep up the good work - you’re enjoying it, aren’t you?

Sadly no, I'm not enjoying it.  I'm frustrated I'm still having to do it after starting it back in October on here and in July for myself and my family.

 

I never give up or surrender though, so probably still be at it this time next year!

 

Onwards and upwards ...

[Megabear2]

15 minutes ago, Eddie99 said:

Megabear - would it be a good idea to adjust your thread title to include the term P&O, to ensure it is relevant and needs to stay here, not be whisked away to UK Cruisers or some such?

 

Keep up the good work - you’re enjoying it, aren’t you?

How do I change the title, anyone able to guide me?

[Eddie99]

You should be able to change it just by using the Edit feature (three dots top right of any of your posts)

You’ll need to be within the time window (?30 minutes)

 

If not, use the three dots again, use Report but just ask Sharon to use her Moderator facility to change it for you

[yorkshirephil]

1 minute ago, Megabear2 said:

How do I change the title, anyone able to guide me?

Click on the 3 little dots in top RH corner, there should be an edit option, I am not sure at what stage you lose this option whether it be number of posts or a time element. After that I think only admin can make changes.

[Megabear2]

5 minutes ago, Eddie99 said:

You should be able to change it just by using the Edit feature (three dots top right of any of your posts)

You’ll need to be within the time window (?30 minutes)

 

If not, use the three dots again, use Report but just ask Sharon to use her Moderator facility to change it for you

I was out of time, so I've reported myself to Sharon !!!

[zap99]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

Sadly no, I'm not enjoying it.  I'm frustrated I'm still having to do it after starting it back in October on here and in July for myself and my family.

 

I never give up or surrender though, so probably still be at it this time next year!

 

Onwards and upwards ...

You may not be enjoying it but boy are you effective. I would guess, judging by the speed of their replies to you, that your name is going around the industry at some pace. Please keep up this excellent work on our behalf. It is very much appreciated.

[clearblueseas]

Glad to hear you’ve opened up another titled topic. This is a very serious situation. Will keep watching.

[Slugsta]

I have an annual policy with Insure and Go. This is the specific paragraph regarding Covid quarantine at the time I took out the policy (August 21)

 

"Additionally, we’ll consider claims for cancelling or cutting short your trip if you, or a member of your family or travelling party, are medically diagnosed with one of these conditions or are personally instructed to quarantine by an NHS service or medical professional."

 

I don't know how that applies to a foreign port insisting on quarantine and it doesn't say they will pay those costs associated with quarantine and flight home (and I note the wording of 'We'll consider claims' rather than 'We will cover').

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Slugsta

[Megabear2]

8 minutes ago, Slugsta said:

I have an annual policy with Insure and Go. This is the specific paragraph regarding Covid quarantine at the time I took out the policy (August 21)

 

"Additionally, we’ll consider claims for cancelling or cutting short your trip if you, or a member of your family or travelling party, are medically diagnosed with one of these conditions or are personally instructed to quarantine by an NHS service or medical professional."

 

I don't know how that applies to a foreign port insisting on quarantine and it doesn't say they will pay those costs associated with quarantine and flight home (and I note the wording of 'We'll consider claims' rather than 'We will cover').

 

Hello.  This is a clause covering you before you go.  You should have one elsewhere about if you catch it while away.

 

In any event I've included them in the shake up so watch this space.

[clearblueseas]

I have written back to P & O. I believe being put ashore is out of P & O hands but I wanted to know if ever, they quarantine anyone onboard. Also they need to investigate their recommended insurance company

 

With respect I am fully aware of your FAQ regarding covid.  

 

What I would like answers to are:

 

If tested positive/negative close contact of a case are we ever put into isolation on the ship and if not what is the reason for this, or in every case are we disembarked, a very worrying decision. 

 

Insurance companies covid cover does not include negative close contacts and I believe this also is the case with the insurance company you recommend.  This needs immediate investigation. We’re in a no win situation here. Being offloaded with a potentially expensive bill for quarantine.

 

My concern is previously you stated you had facilities to deal with cases onboard but never elaborated fully. This seems to have been amended to being quarantined offshore. 

 

[Happy afloat]

Good luck with this, and thank you for taking them on. In my experience of battling officialdom, resilience and dogged determination does get results.

[Teddy123]

As has been pointed out in these discussions, while the cover offered by various insurers is of interest, that offered by Holiday Extras, as the insurer recommended by P&O/Cunard, is specially relevant.

 

It seems clear to me from reading the HE policy wording (sections 21 and 22) that the ONLY cover is for the case where the insured actually catches COVID, and any claim must include a copy of a positive test from a registered medical practitioner.

 

Whatever replies might be received from HE as a result of queries, these policy words will, I believe, stand, especially if there is a dispute.

 

Thus P&O appear to be offloading people who are not postive, saying insurers will take care of everything if this happens, yet recommending insurers who clearly do NOT provide the relevant cover.

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, Teddy123 said:

As has been pointed out in these discussions, while the cover offered by various insurers is of interest, that offered by Holiday Extras, as the insurer recommended by P&O/Cunard, is specially relevant.

 

It seems clear to me from reading the HE policy wording (sections 21 and 22) that the ONLY cover is for the case where the insured actually catches COVID, and any claim must include a copy of a positive test from a registered medical practitioner.

 

Whatever replies might be received from HE as a result of queries, these policy words will, I believe, stand, especially if there is a dispute.

 

Thus P&O appear to be offloading people who are not postive, saying insurers will take care of everything if this happens, yet recommending insurers who clearly do NOT provide the relevant cover.

They are aware of that. When I drew their attention to it in October they thought otherwise. I forwarded them an online chat and they actually put several individuals on as mystery shoppers and admitted it a few days later.  I was told it had passed up the line for high level meetings.

[Teddy123]

4 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

They are aware of that. When I drew their attention to it in October they thought otherwise. I forwarded them an online chat and they actually put several individuals on as mystery shoppers and admitted it a few days later.  I was told it had passed up the line for high level meetings.

If they knew the problem in October, then putting words on their website in January that say in the case of offloading "The guest’s travel insurance provider will handle all matters in relation to their isolation stay and repatriation home, providing they took adequate COVID-19 coverage on their policy" is not helpful. 

 

Perhaps they should say "The guest’s travel insurance provider will handle all matters in relation to their isolation stay and repatriation home, providing they took adequate COVID-19 coverage on their policy, RATHER THAN USING THE INSURER WE RECOMMENDED"!

[Megabear2]

This is exactly why we are back to square one. They are fully aware and at first said they would address it.  I have letters and emails stating they are discussing at highest level  They stated they were speaking to Holiday Extras.  The next I heard was to assure me no one had been out of pocket and a more customer focused protocol would be forthcoming.  Then, absolutely nothing.

 

Personally I think that when the big Iona covid outbreaks started to occur they became very nervous. They'd done very well up to Christmas with only small numbers offloaded or quarantined and we have good reason to believe these people were paid out under non disclosure agreements.  However with Omicron not being detected at departure so easily my personal belief is the percentage affected is considerably higher so making ex gratia payments may no longer be attractive.  

 

The Spring season will shortly be upon us with all the P&O fleet back in action. I'm guessing the new you're on your own with insurance statement is the last throw of the dice with their fingers crossed the pandemic will ease along with countries' entry requirements so they aren't caught out.

 

If you check all the big cruise lines they've all changed to this stance since 1 January.  So much has gone wrong in the past month there seems to be an underlying panic sweeping across the board.

 

Interestingly MSC have strengthened the terms for their passengers in the past week totally against the grain.

[Teddy123]

11 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

This is exactly why we are back to square one. They are fully aware and at first said they would address it.  I have letters and emails stating they are discussing at highest level  They stated they were speaking to Holiday Extras.  The next I heard was to assure me no one had been out of pocket and a more customer focused protocol would be forthcoming.  Then, absolutely nothing.

 

Personally I think that when the big Iona covid outbreaks started to occur they became very nervous. They'd done very well up to Christmas with only small numbers offloaded or quarantined and we have good reason to believe these people were paid out under non disclosure agreements.  However with Omicron not being detected at departure so easily my personal belief is the percentage affected is considerably higher so making ex gratia payments may no longer be attractive.  

 

The Spring season will shortly be upon us with all the P&O fleet back in action. I'm guessing the new you're on your own with insurance statement is the last throw of the dice with their fingers crossed the pandemic will ease along with countries' entry requirements so they aren't caught out.

 

If you check all the big cruise lines they've all changed to this stance since 1 January.  So much has gone wrong in the past month there seems to be an underlying panic sweeping across the board.

 

Interestingly MSC have strengthened the terms for their passengers in the past week totally against the grain.

This is a very plausible assessment.  P&O had a solution (insure with HE) that was OK until Omicron and its ramifications came along.  Now that solution is not OK, P&O know this, but still recommend it.  Most of the problems are outside P&O's control, but this is one area where they are at fault.

[Megabear2]

After some thought overnight, I have opened a new line of communication in writing to the Office of the Financial Ombudsman.  Although unregulated products, travel insurance policies are subject to scrutinisation by the Ombudsman. My email is as follows:

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

I am enquiring on behalf of a number of people, including myself and my family, regarding some of the provisions in the bulk of travel policies on sale in the UK, particularly from the period commencing March 2021 to the present.

 

Obviously policies had need to evolve during this period due to Covid and most chose to introduce at some point special Covid insurance. These special terms are clearly listed in all policies I have seen to date and inclusions and exclusions have been clearly shown in both the policy and Schedule of Cover.  I would add that in purchasing my own personal insurance policy I read in great detail policies of some 20 plus companies so feel I can speak with confidence on my findings.

 

In June 2021 cruising holidays from the UK restarted, with international cruises starting to various destinations in late September/October.  An essential term which was non negotiable by the cruise lines became part of the contract of passage for the passengers to purchase specific travel insurance with what they termed "full cruise and Covid cover with medical cover of a minimum £2,000,000".  A number of cruise lines went so far as to recommend specific insurers for this cover, thus implying if a passenger bought that particular policy they would have the required cover for all eventualities.

 

Sadly as cruising became more regular with ships departing weekly to foreign destinations from UK ports and flights to join so called "fly cruises" starting up to more distant shores, it has become clear that this so called "Covid insurance" is inadequate in one extremely important respect in that it does not support passengers offloaded from ships with negative Covid tests as so called "close contacts".

 

It is a fact that sadly there are Covid outbreaks, albeit small in most cases, on ships since international cruising recommenced in October, with both negative and positive passengers disembarked in foreign ports. 

 

I have asked a large number of leading insurers in this market if they would confirm the outcome of any policy holders' claims (in general, not of course on an individual basis) for any negative tested close contacts and whether the costs incurred in quarantine by these passengers were met in full, in part or not all.

 

I am met with stoney silence in most cases and from social media sites have learned that many of these unfortunate passengers have been left to pay these often large and definitely unexpected costs themselves or depend on the goodwill of the cruise lines with ex gratia payments.

 

I had understood that anything of this important nature should be listed clearly under the exclusions section of policies if it was not covered.

 

Whilst appreciating that the market is evolving, this matter is now clearly something the buyer of a policy should expect full disclosure from an insurer on, particularly in light of Treating Customers Fairly.

 

It is, of course, a matter for individual insurers and underwriters to decide if they wish to include this risk but surely in the name of fairness to the policy purchaser they should state very clearly whether this situation is or is not included in the cover.

 

I have asked the following of insurers, including the "recommended" insurer of two major cruise lines:

 

"In the event that a passenger on a cruise ship is asked to leave the vessel as a close contact of a positively tested passenger or crew member while they themselves have a negative test, will the insurance policy purchased from xxxxxx cover their costs of quarantine including but not limited to accommodation, food and sustenance, sundries such as internet and telephone access, transportation to and from the quarantine premises, covid testing while in quarantine, nursing/doctors' costs for administering and documenting these required tests and repatriation to the United Kingdom."

 

To date only one company has responded, Cover For You.  They have explained in full their approach to the situation although the terminology they use is far from clear - it took three three supplemental enquiries to get an easily understood explanation of cover.

 

This issue is clearly one that will continue for some time, particularly as certain European ports by law have to offload passengers into quarantine.  The cruise lines are now acknowledging this with amended terms which basically tell their passengers any problem on quarantine is between the individual and their insurer.

 

From the replies (or lack of them) from the insurers the market does not appear to offer insurance for this scenario at this point so we are at a brick wall as purchasers.  

 

Whilst you cannot force insurers to offer cover I would hope you can insist that where necessary they have to show clearly in the exclusions if this cover is not included.

 

I would be happy to discuss this and provide a list of insurers I have contacted if you would find it helpful. In the meantime I would welcome your views and opinions on the situation.

 

Thank you.

 

Not sure what response I will get, but I did note Holiday Extras referred to the Ombudsman in their initial reply. Rather than wait on them replying I felt a general approach might work to speed things along. We shall see!

 

Sent from my Galaxy

 

[Dermotsgirl]

I noticed that this thread got a mention of a social media site.

 

obe of the people that commented said that she had been offloaded in a Spanish port as testing positive. Her husband, still testing negative offloaded himself with her. Apparently, he wasn’t allowed to stay with her in the  quarantine hotel - he had to find his own hotel.

 

I hadn’t even thought of that scenario as a possible outcome. 

[JOHNLS]

On 1/15/2022 at 11:04 AM, Megabear2 said:

After some thought overnight, I have opened a new line of communication in writing to the Office of the Financial Ombudsman.  Although unregulated products, travel insurance policies are subject to scrutinisation by the Ombudsman. My email is as follows:

 

 

 

 

 

[JOHNLS]

Hello Megabear

 

Firstly, let me say how much I appreciate what you have been doing, and the amount of work you have undertaken, regarding these insurance matters.

 

Secondly, as a retired employee of the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS), I wouldn't want you to get your hopes up too much of anything positive resulting from your email to them.

 

After receiving a formal acknowledgment in due course, your email will be read and considered with a fuller response at some future date; I'm not too sure how long the delays are at present.

 

Unless things have changed drastically, you will be advised that your issues cannot be considered by the FOS as they are only able to consider complaints brought to them by policyholders about the policy they hold with the company they are insured with.

 

You will most likely be referred to the Financial Conduct Authority who have the power to consider the issues you have raised.

 

Regards, and keep up the good work!

 

John

[Teddy123]

1 hour ago, Dermotsgirl said:

I noticed that this thread got a mention of a social media site.

 

obe of the people that commented said that she had been offloaded in a Spanish port as testing positive. Her husband, still testing negative offloaded himself with her. Apparently, he wasn’t allowed to stay with her in the  quarantine hotel - he had to find his own hotel.

 

I hadn’t even thought of that scenario as a possible outcome. 

 

I guess my policy is typical for this scenario: the husband's accommodation and travel costs are covered if leaving the ship and staying with his wife is "the recommended medical advice".  So some chance of being covered in special cases.