Could the HAL Brand be sold off?

[HappyInVan]

9 hours ago, AFNavigator said:

I'm not so sure such a merger would work.  Seabourn ships are so different from HAL ships--half to 1/3 the size and 1/3 to 1/4 the number of passengers--that the two products would be very difficult to merge.  Seabourn is all about all-inclusive luxury suite cruising--that's not how HAL ships are designed.  

 

+1

 

There'll be a great deal of debate about 'fit' and economies of scale. That said, I'm willing to be patient about the industry's shake-out. What will be, will be. The important thing is to minimize the amount of FCC we hold.

[Sir PMP]

8 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Egads, a merger between HAL and SB?  Surely you jest.  We routinely cruise on both lines (which are both part of the HAL Group) and there is no way a merger would benefit anyone.  The two lines are completely different in terms of space ratios, quality, operations, etc.  HAL is now a lower end mass market line (almost a budget line with lots of nickel and diming) while Seabourn is a high end luxury line.  There is some cross fertilization between staff (especially at the senior officer level) but the lines have little in common.  Just consider that even the smaller SB ships have Production Shows (with an onboard case of 4 singers, two dancers, and live musicians that are Produced by Belinda King Productions (a decent English entertainment company) while HAL does not even have Production Shows.  Staffing requirements are also quite different with Seabourn staff generally working 3 month contracts compared to HAL where staff generally work much longer contracts.  There are also big differences in customer service.  If I call Seabourn I will generally get right through or perhaps be on hold for only a few minutes.  Call HAL and you would likely have time to eat a meal and do a manicure while cooling your heels on hold.  And we have also noticed that when we talk to SB folks they actually have some idea about what they speak while HAL staff sometimes do not know answers to the most simple questons.

 

We have seldom heard complaints of SB management when we cruise that line.  That being said, SB has recently gotten some very negative reviews (from even very loyal patrons) which we think is related to staffing issues resulting from recently activating more ships of their fleet.  In the past we used to comment that the onboard staff on Seabourn did not have the word "No" in their vocabulary.  Ask just about anything within reason and it was done.   While HAL has wonderful crew, it is a different world then what we experience on SB.

 

Hank

 

Hank

I agree with you, but the fact that we already have HAL captains with Seabourn could be a sign of  adjustment and Hal definitely needs a push back to  where they came from and  were very good at it.

[Sir PMP]

9 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Too late to edit. This should obviously read... CCL is going in the red at a faster rate than others. 

 

https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/06/27/why-cruise-line-stocks-dropped-today/

 

Therefore changes need to be made, maybe Micky should take over for a while.

[iancal]

The ingredients for concern are flashing red. 

 

 Capital intensive business.   High debt load.  High interest rates.  High fixed costs.   Excessive ship  inventory.  Variable and unpredictable customer demand.  Ongoing cash flow challenges.

Edited June 28, 2022 by iancal

[Stateroom_Sailor]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Egads, a merger between HAL and SB?  Surely you jest.  We routinely cruise on both lines (which are both part of the HAL Group) and there is no way a merger would benefit anyone.  The two lines are completely different in terms of space ratios, quality, operations, etc. 

 

Easy fix, you just have the ships sail in pairs, and SB becomes a floating Haven, Retreat, or Yacht Club.  At night, Seabourn passengers can tender over to Holland America ships for live music, the World Stage, and Kings Day parties.

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, Stateroom_Sailor said:

 

Easy fix, you just have the ships sail in pairs, and SB becomes a floating Haven, Retreat, or Yacht Club.  At night, Seabourn passengers can tender over to Holland America ships for live music, the World Stage, and Kings Day parties.

But why?  The reality of our cruising has been that the entertainment on SB has generally been superior to what we have received on HAL!  That is not to say that they have more options, but SB does have a nightly show including several small Production Shows where the quality of the singers/dancers (which does not even exist on HAL) is excellent.  Many of these folks have worked on Broadway and/or the West End and are real pros.  The dance couples that accompany these shows are also world class.  SB also has a nightly piano bar player (who works until past 11pm) and a decent band (with singer) that also works until well past 11.  There is no "Lincoln Center" on SB so that would be a plus for HAL (at least for the ships that feature that venue).  

 

Do not get me wrong.  At one time we think that HAL provided excellent entertainment including several live bands (we used to love when they hired decent Filipino bands), Rosario Strings, real Production Shows, etc.  Now Production shows have all but disappeared, live bands have often been replaced by pre recorded music, HAL sometimes shows documentary movies in place of real shows, has "dark nights" on many cruises, etc.  Even the small ships (450 max passengers) of SB do not try to pass off a BBC documentary as the nightly main entertainment :).  When we watch BBC documentaries on TV at home, DW and I sometimes laugh and say it is just like being on HAL.

 

Hank

 

Hank

[Mary229]

These entertainment discussions are interesting but always fail to realize that what you may like is not what others like.  I am sure there are focus groups and surveys used to find what entertainment expected  curve intersects with the price curve.   Some people want “premium” at any cost, others want the best value for their dollar.  No matter where you are on this scale it is a reasoned decision, one decision is not better than another. The business serving customers needs to determine where they can maximize their profits with the assets they own.  As a business owner I can tell you that opportunity to acquire assets at a “good” price can direct your business model. 
 

BTW, I do not like production shows.  If I want to see theatre I will go to theatre. 

[Suncoastsailors]

On 6/27/2022 at 6:35 AM, MISTER 67 said:

I disagree, no line has Music Walk which now on the newer ship has 4 different venues to listen to music, Lincoln Center, BB Kings, Billboard Onboard and Rolling Stone Rock Room. All they need to do is utilize the Main showroom a bit more and you can't ask for more.

HAL cruisers aren't looking for rock climbing walls and water slides. 

Dining is fine with the MDR, Tamirind, the Pinnacle Grill and Caneletto plus you have the NY Deli and Pizza and Dive In.

Besides all that, HAL probably still has the best service and cleanest ships among the Mainstream cruise lines.

They need to utilize the Main Showroom a lot more. Stop with the nature movies and talk presentations. Bring on guest entertainers and stop with the repetitive same 3-4 dance shows. They don't need BB King and Rolling Stone on the same ship. The Comedy shows have been good and help with those down times from the Main Showroom. Food and service are excellent. You are correct no need for water slides, rock climbing, wave rider, miniature golf, zip lines, etc. 

[Loreto]

19 minutes ago, Suncoastsailors said:

They need to utilize the Main Showroom a lot more. Stop with the nature movies and talk presentations. Bring on guest entertainers and stop with the repetitive same 3-4 dance shows. They don't need BB King and Rolling Stone on the same ship. The Comedy shows have been good and help with those down times from the Main Showroom. Food and service are excellent. You are correct no need for water slides, rock climbing, wave rider, miniature golf, zip lines, etc. 

I agree!  It was sad to see the darkened showroom last week on the Westerdam/Alaska cruise.  They did the same video presentations, which are beautiful once, but I have seen them many times.  The same goes for the Step One shows. 

 

The afternoon in Sitka the Raptor Center brought a Red-Tailed Hawk onboard for an excellent presentation in the showroom.  The final night of the cruise a movie was shown in the showroom, which was a disappointment.  The final night of my Feb. Koningsdam Mexico cruise a dynamic pianist and singer did an amazing show that left you with so much enthusiasm! Not so on the Westerdam.

 

I wish our Ketchikan and Victoria times were longer.  Guests didn't get off the ship until 8:30 pm in Victoria, and not much time to do anything.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

These entertainment discussions are interesting but always fail to realize that what you may like is not what others like.  I am sure there are focus groups and surveys used to find what entertainment expected  curve intersects with the price curve.   Some people want “premium” at any cost, others want the best value for their dollar.  No matter where you are on this scale it is a reasoned decision, one decision is not better than another. The business serving customers needs to determine where they can maximize their profits with the assets they own.  As a business owner I can tell you that opportunity to acquire assets at a “good” price can direct your business model. 
 

BTW, I do not like production shows.  If I want to see theatre I will go to theatre. 

I can accept that folks have their own preferences, but the fact remains that HAL spent millions of dollars to build "state of the art" theaters on their ships.   I think we can both agree that if you want to see theater you will not find it on HAL!   When DW and I look for an alternative to spending a few weeks in a quiet public library located next to a quiet hotel/restaurant...HAL comes quickly to mind.

 

Hank

[Mary229]

5 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I can accept that folks have their own preferences, but the fact remains that HAL spent millions of dollars to build "state of the art" theaters on their ships.   I think we can both agree that if you want to see theater you will not find it on HAL!   When DW and I look for an alternative to spending a few weeks in a quiet public library located next to a quiet hotel/restaurant...HAL comes quickly to mind.

 

Hank

I have never seen theatre on HAL even before the new multimedia experience.  I don’t even know why they continued the tradition of having that space.   At least on my last cruise I saw some decent movies in the theatre. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Mary229

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, Mary229 said:

I have never seen theatre on HAL even before the new multimedia experience.  I don’t even know why they continued the tradition of having that space.   At least on my last cruise I saw some decent movies in the theatre. 

I think a flex space would have been more innovative.  Popup shopping, restaurants, lecture halls, craft venues.  A true multipurpose “neighborhood”

[Suncoastsailors]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

I can accept that folks have their own preferences, but the fact remains that HAL spent millions of dollars to build "state of the art" theaters on their ships.   I think we can both agree that if you want to see theater you will not find it on HAL!   When DW and I look for an alternative to spending a few weeks in a quiet public library located next to a quiet hotel/restaurant...HAL comes quickly to mind.

 

Hank

Not expecting theatre. Maybe just a local talent from the current port of call. Maybe a singer or a tribute band or individual. Those dance shows are well done but most of us have seen them multiple times. However I agree if your are looking for a relaxing cruise, HAL is the place. I still enjoy the experience but it could be better with just a little different entertainment.  

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

I can accept that folks have their own preferences, but the fact remains that HAL spent millions of dollars to build "state of the art" theaters on their ships.   I think we can both agree that if you want to see theater you will not find it on HAL!   When DW and I look for an alternative to spending a few weeks in a quiet public library located next to a quiet hotel/restaurant...HAL comes quickly to mind.

 

Hank

Even when HAL had "production" shows they were far more Lawrence Welk than broadway.

[Mary229]

15 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Even when HAL had "production" shows they were far more Lawrence Welk than broadway.

Yes, they were 

[USN59-79]

I enjoy learning on a cruise.  When we were on the Westerdam in December, 2019 and again in January, 2020 (last cruise before covid) they had courses on how to use a smart phone for photography.  I really enjoyed them as I had no idea that I could take and manipulate such high resolutions photos like that.  It was somewhat like the Microsoft course they had for a few years, but to me, more pertinent.  I really hope for something like that on our sea days as there are still many things I would like to know about my iPhone.

Ray

[rkacruiser]

22 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

(2b) Sycamore Partners hired Orlando Ashford as Chief Executive of Azamara – I believe he has some familiarity with HAL. 😉

I can see a three-tier cruise line with HAL (premium), Azamara (upper premium), and Seabourn (luxury) – all touting small ships for their class, longer journeys, destination focus.

 

That could be the death of all three companies.  What 'wonders" did  Ashford do for HAL?  Azamara has a fleet of ships, none of which because of what I know about their history and the comments made about those who have sailed on those ships have made, would I ever consider the ships to be "upper premium", at least for what it would cost me to sail on them.  I participate on the Seabourn board and don't read the enthusiasm that you are reading for a change of ownership.  Much is too murky as to what it would mean for the brand.

 

 

[john the pick]

Interested in the ccl stock ownership thread that was mentioned here.  How do I apply?

[rkacruiser]

6 hours ago, Suncoastsailors said:

They need to utilize the Main Showroom a lot more. Stop with the nature movies and talk presentations. Bring on guest entertainers and stop with the repetitive same 3-4 dance shows. They don't need BB King and Rolling Stone on the same ship. The Comedy shows have been good and help with those down times from the Main Showroom. Food and service are excellent. You are correct no need for water slides, rock climbing, wave rider, miniature golf, zip lines, etc. 

 

Other than your thoughts about not needing both BB King and Rolling Stone Rock Room on the same ship, I agree.  King and the Stones could provide their own "unique" music, if that type of music specific programming allowed for this.

 

I have negatively commented on HAL's entertainment programming for years.  There was one specific "guru" in Seattle that was in charge of this for decades.  He survived Lanterman, Kruse, et al.  Not sure that he is still in charge, but, the wandering around the entertainment field that HAL's management has done makes me think that either he or his minions are still in charge.

 

The amount of money spent on creating such an "innovative concept" of a "Theater in the Round" and the use of that facility on the Pinnacle Class ships has been  the most significant disappointment to me as a guest (and CCL shareholder) in the entertainment area.  

[rkacruiser]

5 minutes ago, john the pick said:

Interested in the ccl stock ownership thread that was mentioned here.  How do I apply?

 

Check out Floataway Lounge in Cruise Conversations.  

[RD64]

3 hours ago, Suncoastsailors said:

Not expecting theatre. Maybe just a local talent from the current port of call. Maybe a singer or a tribute band or individual. Those dance shows are well done but most of us have seen them multiple times. However I agree if your are looking for a relaxing cruise, HAL is the place. I still enjoy the experience but it could be better with just a little different entertainment.  

I totally agree - ten years ago on the NA in the Med - as an example we had Spanish Flamenco dancers one night and a pair of Roma violinists another night, and the theatre was packed. 

[RD64]

Obviously this will involve additional $$$$ spent, and you will always have those people who say they can do without anything as long as it keeps cruise costs at a bare minimum.

[Mary229]

3 minutes ago, RD64 said:

Obviously this will involve additional $$$$ spent, and you will always have those people who say they can do without anything as long as it keeps cruise costs at a bare minimum.

I think what is offered is what is contentious.  There are real differences between my expectations and those of traditional cruisers.  For example I do share the interest of lectures, learning and cultural presentations. But   some of us like technology and media entertainment. I like super fast internet , I like binge watching tv and movies , those cost money to install, keep upgraded and to pay the licensing fees.  Dancing is not a widespread hobby as it once was but people are more athletically inclined.  So do we get rid of dance bands to add gym equipment.  These are decisions.  What they offer have two limitations - price and space.  It is always, always, always, dollars per square foot.

[Guest ldtr]

HAL very clearly made the decision to go with the music venues for their main entertainment and moved their focus and staffing there instead of the theater  While different than most other lines we enjoy it. Very nice to have Lincoln Center on some ships, when other lines are doing away with violin trios.

[Expo67]

On a latest HAL Cruise/Land Tour this exact topic came up many times and especially on the land portion. The merger with Princess seemed be bought of for several. One is Princess has many newer larger ships for the family Caribbean attraction while HAL has many newer smaller ships that could cater to the exotic itineraries and ports only available to smaller ships. Then we get to the land options for Alaska with both lines have a lodge at Denali and Princess having several other lodges accessible in Alaska while HAL has only hotel access in other locations. My guess would be a merger rather than a complete line sell off as each caters to different set of clientele. 🤔