Cutbacks

[Badfinger]

6 hours ago, mom2tcdx2 said:

I still have yet to find a land vacation that isn't more expensive than any cruise vacation I have taken.  Personally cutbacks are everywhere and on every cruise line.  Recently my parents went on the Oasis and they didn't serve fried eggs or omelets in the buffet, said only available in the main dining room.  So while still available, the main dining room wasn't quite the option they wanted. 

 

I never bought the bottle of alcohol, honestly didn't see the need for it.  The pizza closing for a few hours seems fine to me, as I never really went beyond about 1 am.  Lines are all charging for room service (except I think Disney).  I think the only thing I miss is the bacon as I do prefer bacon with my breakfast (I prefer sausage in patty form, which no cruise line seems to offer) so then I go to bacon, and I miss the bacon you could add from the toppings bar at Guy's.  I would prefer menu's I can hold, as opposed to always pulling out my phone and I don't miss the little chocolates on the pillows.  

 

One would assume hopefully that someone was really looking at the numbers of people using said services and opted for those that were making the line the least money, or what was costing them more money.  

 

Well, you usually get what you pay for.  Cheaper does not mean better.  Usually means worse.  Our neighbors were big cruisers just like we were.  Last summer they decided on an all-inclusive in Mexico.  By the time it was all said and done, they probably paid about $2k more for the entire family (had to fly vs drive to the port), but they have stated they would rather do an all inclusive in the future vs a cruise, even if it meant doing 2 inclusive vs 3 cruises.  Everything was on their time.  Obviously the rooms were much bigger and more luxurious than a cruise ship cabin, and they did not miss going into the tourist trap ports associated with cruises to get to their excursions.

[Drew B 58]

58 minutes ago, Island Dog said:

While I agree with you to some degree, I don't  think most Platinum and Diamond VIFP are "lower income clientele".

Let’s put it this way:  a significant portion of Carnival’s clientele prioritizes value.  It’s very possible that people who prioritize value have done so for a long time and that over those years, they have amassed enough days to achieve platinum or even diamond status.  That doesn’t mean they aren’t still cautious and frugal with how they spend their (limited) discretionary income…

[Despegue]

20 hours ago, Colorado Beach Bum said:

They are business decisions that the company feels will drive the most profit (or lowest loss).  They may seem like knee jerk cutbacks/changes but I’m sure a lot of thought goes into the decisions.  It’s happening in board rooms rooms all across the world right now.  Doesn’t mean we have to like them but at least for now, there are other places to spend our money if we don’t like them.  There’s a line in the sand that will make each of us switch products.  It’s up to the companies to make the difficult decisions.  

And often, these decisions are detrimental to the company, as all too often, the beancounters are totally unaware and disinterested in what really happens on the workfloor, where the workers often have a much better idea of what to do to reduce cost and increase revenue. Most companies are WAY too top-heavy, and cost reductions should start there. On the top floor. How much exactly are the bonuses of the Cruise Industry big-guns? 

[KmomChicago]

21 hours ago, kdr69 said:

NCL and RCCL have cutbacks as well.  NCL most recently with its drink package pricing increase

People have been saying the Royal drinks packages are very high now as well.

[cruisingguy007]

1 hour ago, Badfinger said:

 

Well, you usually get what you pay for.  Cheaper does not mean better.  Usually means worse.  Our neighbors were big cruisers just like we were.  Last summer they decided on an all-inclusive in Mexico.  By the time it was all said and done, they probably paid about $2k more for the entire family (had to fly vs drive to the port), but they have stated they would rather do an all inclusive in the future vs a cruise, even if it meant doing 2 inclusive vs 3 cruises.  Everything was on their time.  Obviously the rooms were much bigger and more luxurious than a cruise ship cabin, and they did not miss going into the tourist trap ports associated with cruises to get to their excursions.

 

I can see that, nicer and bigger digs is a big one (lets face it, the cabins are tiny on cruise ships) plus huge pools, manicured grounds, water sports right at resort and beach pretty much round the clock. You can also do all the same excursions much cheaper. There is also the Air-BnB/VBRO route and the rates in Mexico at any of the port stop tourist destinations are significantly discounted if you stay longer. I looked at some over the summer and we could have stayed for 3-weeks to a month for the all-in costs of some previous 7-day cruises in some nice condos with nice pools/bars. You can also work from there and the kids can do travel studies. I think some folks will just outgrow cruising organically. My kids love it so it's still our top choice but I'm too big for any of the attractions onboard and even many of the excursion offerings, so it's mostly a drink, eat and relax vacation for me lol.   

Edited October 28, 2022 by cruisingguy007

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, Despegue said:

And often, these decisions are detrimental to the company, as all too often, the beancounters are totally unaware and disinterested in what really happens on the workfloor, where the workers often have a much better idea of what to do to reduce cost and increase revenue. Most companies are WAY too top-heavy, and cost reductions should start there. On the top floor. How much exactly are the bonuses of the Cruise Industry big-guns? 

Much of the compensation is in the form of stock options. How's that Carnival stock doing?

[ronrythm]

12 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

 

Increasing daily service fees. This clearly means: we are paying less of your cruise fare to wages and having you cover that difference with daily fees. 

This is sort of incorrect. The base amount the cruise lines are paying to the workers hasn’t changed. It can’t change by their contracts with the unions. But that amount is just a fraction of their expected wages. Most of their expected wage comes from “tips” or as it’s now called the daily service charge (DSC). What has changed is how much those workers require to leave their homes for months at a time. Just like a lot of businesses, cruise lines are having trouble staffing their ships. So, again like a lot of businesses, they are finding it necessary to compensate their staff more to fill positions and retain people. So the DSC goes up. Either way, you, the consumer pay for it.

 

Personally, I have no issue with a higher DSC. Inflation is worldwide, and I think the service I get from the employees is well worth it. If I had more money, I might go on one of the lines with all services included, but their overall cost puts them out of my price range. Your mileage may vary.

 

Enjoy

[cruisingguy007]

1 hour ago, Despegue said:

And often, these decisions are detrimental to the company, as all too often, the beancounters are totally unaware and disinterested in what really happens on the workfloor, where the workers often have a much better idea of what to do to reduce cost and increase revenue. Most companies are WAY too top-heavy, and cost reductions should start there. On the top floor. How much exactly are the bonuses of the Cruise Industry big-guns? 

 

Well said! 

[mz-s]

1 hour ago, Drew B 58 said:

Let’s put it this way:  a significant portion of Carnival’s clientele prioritizes value.  It’s very possible that people who prioritize value have done so for a long time and that over those years, they have amassed enough days to achieve platinum or even diamond status.  That doesn’t mean they aren’t still cautious and frugal with how they spend their (limited) discretionary income…

 

Carnival should be congratulated for making cruise vacations affordable for more people.

 

I think they should work on amplifying their VIFP program so that those who are ready to move up are incentivized to do so under the Carnival Corp banner.

[BlerkOne]

10 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

I think they should work on amplifying their VIFP program so that those who are ready to move up are incentivized to do so under the Carnival Corp banner.

Bribes are more the modus operandi of Royal. Carnival prefers cruisers who cruise because of the brand and not because of bribes.

 

Princess still counts sea days or number of cruises towards loyalty levels. You can get to the highest loyalty level of Princess with fewer sea days than it takes to reach Platinum on Carnival. That's plenty of incentive.

[kdr69]

2 hours ago, Colorado Cruzer said:

The food quality was pretty bad back in March on Panorama and the poor service and lines for everything were a real bummer for us.  We have one more cruise in DEC and nothing booked after that.  I think if I want to cruise again, I'll try Celebrity or one of the nicer quailty lines. We usually book a suite so the cruise fare isn't a deal breaker for us, it's the experience once on board that matters to us and Carnival just hasn't been delivering like they did just 5 years ago even. Oh well, plenty of people will stil cruise Carnival and maybe someday the food in the MDR will be edible again and not take 2 hours...lol

Strange i cruised the Panorama in March too and i found the food quite good.  It did take awhile yes in the dining room but i expect that.  Restaurants on land can take just as long IMO at times and given the staff shortage and having just restarted sailing i think all in all it was expected and just being back onboard honestly helped me overlook a lot of small items.

[Colorado Beach Bum]

2 hours ago, Despegue said:

And often, these decisions are detrimental to the company, as all too often, the beancounters are totally unaware and disinterested in what really happens on the workfloor, where the workers often have a much better idea of what to do to reduce cost and increase revenue. Most companies are WAY too top-heavy, and cost reductions should start there. On the top floor. How much exactly are the bonuses of the Cruise Industry big-guns? 

That’s a very broad assumption.  There are plenty of companies that understand their customers.  If not these companies wouldn’t be successful and deliver huge profits for their shareholders (many ordinary peoples 401k’s) who always make more than the executives. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Colorado Beach Bum
Typo

[DallasGuy75219]

1 hour ago, ronrythm said:

This is sort of incorrect. The base amount the cruise lines are paying to the workers hasn’t changed. It can’t change by their contracts with the unions.

If you think cruise crew are unionized, at least on the mass market lines, you clearly don't understand the labor dynamics of the mass market lines sailing foreign-flagged ships with crew from relatively poor foreign countries.  Substantially all (if not all) of the crew are not unionized.  While they work hard onboard, most make than they'd make at home. 

 

The cruise lines exert a lot of power over the crew.  Yes, in the current economic and COVID environment the cruise lines probably have to offer higher pay to attract enough foreign crew, but once onboard they're at the mercy of the cruise line to treat them fairly and uphold their end of their contract with the crew.  There's not much stopping the cruiselines from adding more and more to their responsibilities without a corresponding increase in pay.(e.g., Carnival's room stewards). 

 

Complain too loudly, engage in a work slowdown, or just refuse to perform the added responsibilities and you'll get fired and put off at the next port.  Theres no EEOC to complain to.  One of the crew's biggest fears is getting fired in the middle of a contract and having to pay for their own travel home.

Edited October 28, 2022 by DallasGuy75219

[BlerkOne]

6 minutes ago, DallasGuy75219 said:

If you think cruise crew are unionized, at least on the mass market lines, you clearly don't understand the labor dynamics of the mass market lines sailing foreign-flagged ships with crew from relatively poor foreign countries.  Substantially all (if not all) of the crew are not unionized.  While they work hard onboard, most make than they'd make at home. 

 

 

Of course they are. Complete with benefits. One such union:

https://www.itfglobal.org/en

 

 

[ronrythm]

17 minutes ago, DallasGuy75219 said:

If you think cruise crew are unionized, at least on the mass market lines, you clearly don't understand the labor dynamics of the mass market lines sailing foreign-flagged ships with crew from relatively poor foreign countries.  Substantially all (if not all) of the crew are not unionized.  While they work hard onboard, most make than they'd make at home. 

 

The cruise lines exert a lot of power over the crew.  Yes, in the current economic and COVID environment the cruise lines probably have to offer higher pay to attract enough foreign crew, but once onboard they're at the mercy of the cruise line to treat them fairly and uphold their end of their contract with the crew.  There's not much stopping the cruiselines from adding more and more to their responsibilities without a corresponding increase in pay.(e.g., Carnival's room stewards).  Complain too loudly, engage in a work slowdown, or fist refuse to perform the addrd responsibilities and you'll get fired and put off at the next port.  Yhete's no EEOC to complain to.  One of the crew's biggest fear is getting fired in the middle of a contract and having to pay for their own travel home.

They may not be unions like you recognize from the US but there are organizations that handle this. @chengkp75 would you care to comment? Most of the information I gave came via you.

[mz-s]

35 minutes ago, DallasGuy75219 said:

If you think cruise crew are unionized, at least on the mass market lines, you clearly don't understand the labor dynamics of the mass market lines sailing foreign-flagged ships with crew from relatively poor foreign countries.  Substantially all (if not all) of the crew are not unionized.  While they work hard onboard, most make than they'd make at home. 

 

The cruise lines exert a lot of power over the crew.  Yes, in the current economic and COVID environment the cruise lines probably have to offer higher pay to attract enough foreign crew, but once onboard they're at the mercy of the cruise line to treat them fairly and uphold their end of their contract with the crew.  There's not much stopping the cruiselines from adding more and more to their responsibilities without a corresponding increase in pay.(e.g., Carnival's room stewards). 

 

Complain too loudly, engage in a work slowdown, or just refuse to perform the added responsibilities and you'll get fired and put off at the next port.  Theres no EEOC to complain to.  One of the crew's biggest fears is getting fired in the middle of a contract and having to pay for their own travel home.

 

Anyone who has talked to crew, especially newer crew, knows how true that last sentence is.

[DallasGuy75219]

5 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Of course they are. Complete with benefits. One such union:

https://www.itfglobal.org/en

 

 

"The International Transport Workers’ Federation (ITF) is a democratic, affiliate-led federation recognised as the world’s leading transport authority. We fight passionately to improve working lives, connecting nearly 700 affiliated trade unions from 150 countries that may otherwise be isolated and helping their members to secure rights, equality and justice. We are the voice for nearly 20 million working men and women across the world."

 

This is all puffery and posturing. Show me some evidence of this "union" having the authority to exert some meaningful legal influence over foreign-flagged ships sailing from more affluent (e.g., U.S.) ports with foreign crew and then we'll talk.

[LibertyBella]

Inflation is a world-wide challenge.  Cut-backs happen because companies prefer to try to survive rather than disappear.  The travel industry is constantly evaluating expenditures and profits. 

 

Remember when luggage and seat choices were free on airlines, and full hot meals were served?  Airlines are making record profits right now, because people will still fly even without all the extras.  And cheap airlines came into existence because there was a market of need and want, and now even more people fly.

 

Carnival is still a FANTASTIC bargain in the world of travel, and especially for cruising.  But it has no need to compete with the other brands in Carnival Corporation, so those who want more luxury can just pay more and go to another cruise line.  

 

I travel a lot, and I have gone to more than a few all-inclusive resorts. But I rarely drink alcohol, and I am not a big eater, so they never lose money on me.  I just like the resort experience, the big pools, the variety of restaurants, the palm trees, etc.  I will never stay in an Air B&B, because trying to do a vacation as cheap as possible stopped being my modus operandi after I turned twenty-five (decades ago--believe me--I even hitch-hiked in Europe when that was still a thing!). However, I will still choose Carnival when I just want a cheap, fun getaway cruise, and I am not going to nit-pick over any changes, because I am away from home/work and relaxing!

[ray98]

12 hours ago, Drew B 58 said:

Let’s put it this way:  a significant portion of Carnival’s clientele prioritizes value.  It’s very possible that people who prioritize value have done so for a long time and that over those years, they have amassed enough days to achieve platinum or even diamond status.  That doesn’t mean they aren’t still cautious and frugal with how they spend their (limited) discretionary income…

Many who are reaching Platinum and Diamond now started cruising Carnival when they were a much different line.

[kdr69]

12 hours ago, DallasGuy75219 said:

While they work hard onboard, most make than they'd make at home. 

I think there's a word missing?  More would be the most logical as i know they wouldn't make less than they'd make at home.  It's one of the biggest attractions for them to apply. Indeed, it's one of the biggest reasons most leave their homes and come to other countries for employment.

[DallasGuy75219]

6 hours ago, LibertyBella said:

But it has no need to compete with the other brands in Carnival Corporation, so those who want more luxury can just pay more and go to another cruise line.  

But it seems Carnival Corp. would do better to have some sort of program to keep cruisers who've outgrown CCL in the Carnival Corp. brands, like how Royal Caribbean (the parent conpany) honors status across Royal, Celebrity, and (at least used to be before they spun them off) Azamara. 

 

I'm not necessarily saying match Carnival Diamond to Princess Elite, but at least throw a bone to someone with CCL status to encourage them to move up from CCL to, let's say, Princess rather than Celebrity.

[Trueblueky]

If you're old enough, you might remember Chevrolet Biscayne, Bel Air, Impalla, and Caprice. They were all the same car, but different levels of trim and such.

 

Carnival Corporation has its tiers as well.Carnival is the Biscayne. If you want the economy brand, go with it. You'll cross the same ocean and stop at the same ports.

[Joebucks]

13 hours ago, kdr69 said:

Strange i cruised the Panorama in March too and i found the food quite good.  It did take awhile yes in the dining room but i expect that.  Restaurants on land can take just as long IMO at times and given the staff shortage and having just restarted sailing i think all in all it was expected and just being back onboard honestly helped me overlook a lot of small items.

 

I cruised the Panorama in January. I would mirror in that the food was quite good. I guess it is possible it took a complete spiral in two months. I'd wager that's not really what happened though.

 

16 hours ago, Badfinger said:

 

Well, you usually get what you pay for.  Cheaper does not mean better.  Usually means worse.  Our neighbors were big cruisers just like we were.  Last summer they decided on an all-inclusive in Mexico.  By the time it was all said and done, they probably paid about $2k more for the entire family (had to fly vs drive to the port), but they have stated they would rather do an all inclusive in the future vs a cruise, even if it meant doing 2 inclusive vs 3 cruises.  Everything was on their time.  Obviously the rooms were much bigger and more luxurious than a cruise ship cabin, and they did not miss going into the tourist trap ports associated with cruises to get to their excursions.

 

I just returned from Cancun last week. It was an enjoyable trip. There are pros and cons to any choice in life. I find it interesting you use the words tourist trap for cruise ports. To me, Mexico is by far the most aggressive tourist trap. I prefer cruising. 

 

15 hours ago, Despegue said:

And often, these decisions are detrimental to the company, as all too often, the beancounters are totally unaware and disinterested in what really happens on the workfloor, where the workers often have a much better idea of what to do to reduce cost and increase revenue. Most companies are WAY too top-heavy, and cost reductions should start there. On the top floor. How much exactly are the bonuses of the Cruise Industry big-guns? 

 

Not that what you say is completely untrue, but it depends. There's also quite a bit of the typical classism in these types of discussions. "Those elites at corporate are all evil." Sometimes you have good leadership, sometimes you do not. Sometimes, the people are disconnected. However, the public also doesn't get nor really care about any of the context. What exactly DO you do when your business is billions in debt? Sure the internet has all of it's great ideas, usually involving spending more to solve the debt.

[Drew B 58]

4 hours ago, ray98 said:

Many who are reaching Platinum and Diamond now started cruising Carnival when they were a much different line.

Very true!  But the change hasn’t all been in one direction.  Those customers have gained many things and lost others.  It is a matter of personal opinion whether the additions are outweighed by the cuts. To me, they are not. I feel like I am getting MUCH more today for my cruise fare than I did when I first cruised with (Carnival) in 2000.  And what I just paid for a balcony cabin on a seven day, Mexican Riviera cruise was actually LESS than what I paid 22 years ago for an inside cabin on the exact same itinerary!

[Island Dog]

3 hours ago, DallasGuy75219 said:

But it seems Carnival Corp. would do better to have some sort of program to keep cruisers who've outgrown CCL in the Carnival Corp. brands, like how Royal Caribbean (the parent conpany) honors status across Royal, Celebrity, and (at least used to be before they spun them off) Azamara. 

 

I'm not necessarily saying match Carnival Diamond to Princess Elite, but at least throw a bone to someone with CCL status to encourage them to move up from CCL to, let's say, Princess rather than Celebrity.

Carnival won't. But in addition to RCCL, MSC and Virgin have "loyalty matching" from different (competing) lines.

 

My Platinum status on Princess got me Gold status on MSC.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Island Dog