Disembarkation one port before final destination

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

🤣, I guess you cannot use the strategy of not paying your account to make your cruise become back to back.

While they cannot make you stay, they can place an "innkeeper's lien" on you, which means you cannot take your possessions (baggage) away with you.  They will hold the luggage until the bill is paid.

[ontheweb]

16 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 

Unlike Charlie in the song M.T. A. who was trapped on the Boston subway system because he didn't have the money for the new exit fares. 😉

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Jw_v3F_Q0

 

And now they call the card you use to pay the fare on the Boston Subway system, the Charlie Card. 🤣

[navybankerteacher]

32 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

🤣, I guess you cannot use the strategy of not paying your account to make your cruise become back to back.

 

When we were in Jamaica for our 20th anniversary way back in the 20th century, there was a tax to leave. The lady in line ahead of us to pay the tax, said she had spent all her money and could not pay the small tax. They did NOT make her stay. 

Mexico had a comparable exit tax -- I was amazed at the number of people at the Cancun airport holding up the line. claiming to have spent every last peso/dollar and were flying home penniless. 

[pdmlynek]

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

...

 

I would beg to differ on whether a fine was ever levied for a crewmember, as they are not considered passengers, by legal definition.   CBP is very specific about the definition of a "passenger".

 

From the CBP PVSA "Informed Compliance" Manual:

 

"CBP has interpreted this regulation to mean that a “passenger” within the meaning of the PVSA is any person transported on a vessel who is not directly and substantially connected with the operation of the vessel, her navigation, ownership, or business."

 

"Examples of who is not a "passenger" per the definition of "directly or substantially connected with the operation of the vessel" are listed as:

 

Pursuant to 19 C.F.R. § 4.50(b), a passenger is any person carried on a vessel who is not connected with the operation of such vessel, her navigation, ownership, or business.

 

Operation or Navigation of the Vessel

• Auditors and inspectors conducting surveys pursuant to the International Ship and Port Facility Security (ISPS) Code, International Safety Management (ISM) Code, International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), and International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships (MARPOL). 22

• Cargo hold cleaning crews performing cargo hold cleaning operations.23

• Safety and maintenance inspectors24

• Individuals conducting safety trainings for the crew.25

• Technicians conducting maintenance or repairs on the vessel. 26

 

Ownership or Business of the Vessel

 • The officers of a company owning a vessel, and, if the corporate owner, the members of its board of directors, if acting in their official capacities while onboard the vessel.2

 

The spouse and children of officers of a vessel are not passengers. The children must be a part of the officer’s household.28 CBP has found the following positions to be officers of the vessel:

• Captain/Master/Chief Officer;29

• Chief/First Mate;30

• Second Officer;31

• Third Officer;32

• Radio Officer;33

• Chief Engineer;34 and

• First Assistant Engineer"

 

The PVSA fine has gone up to $798.  Notice the bolding above for outside technicians.  And, crew are signed onto ship's articles, and therefore not being transported "for hire".

Yes, you are correct, I misremembered it.  What I remembered was that one does not have to be a paying passenger in order to be considered a passenger.  

 

I reviewed my notes from 11 years ago, when I looked this up, and a passsenger includes "an individual that was to provide a lecture regarding the history of wine and wines" (https://rulings.cbp.gov/ruling/H054243) , "a clothing consultant to give advince about nashion for the passengers", "marketing employees shooting a marketing videos" (H081080), and "A Manager, Marine Hotel Operations traveling onboard to conduct an overall operational review, including food and beverage service, entertainment, housekeeping, and accounting" (H067177).

 

I stand corrected.

[pdmlynek]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The ship cannot deny you disembarkation, for any reason, in any port.  They can make it difficult, and they can point to costs involved, but they cannot hold you on the ship, even for an unpaid account.

 

What about Diamond Pricess in Yokohama when pasengers were not let off for a month in Feb 2020?

 

Further, surely a passenger who is arrested for a suspecion of murder won't be able to get off the ship prior to being turned over to the local authorities, even if he wants to.

 

Further, surely, the ship personnel won't let a 7-year-old child wonder off a ship by itself in a foreign port.   I hope, anyway.  Certainly, a 13 year old might be old enough to do so, but I hope that there is some sort of a security that would prevent little kids just getting off a ship by themselves.

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, pdmlynek said:

What about Diamond Pricess in Yokohama when pasengers were not let off for a month in Feb 2020?

The Diamond Princess was never "cleared" for entry into Japan, so no one was allowed to disembark, as the ship was not legally in port.  It was only to manage the quarantine better that they allowed the ship to dock, but it still was not cleared for entry.

 

7 minutes ago, pdmlynek said:

Further, surely a passenger who is arrested for a suspecion of murder won't be able to get off the ship prior to being turned over to the local authorities, even if he wants to.

Of course, if the Captain detains someone for a crime onboard, according to flag state law, then that person has forfeited their right to leave the ship, but the Captain is under no obligation to turn the person over to local (port state) law enforcement if he/she does not wish to.  But, at that point, the person is no longer a passenger, but a criminal.  Let's not get too literal here.

 

11 minutes ago, pdmlynek said:

Further, surely, the ship personnel won't let a 7-year-old child wonder off a ship by itself in a foreign port.   I hope, anyway.  Certainly, a 13 year old might be old enough to do so, but I hope that there is some sort of a security that would prevent little kids just getting off a ship by themselves.

Children under the age of 18 are not considered to be adults, and therefore on common carriers (like cruise ships) can be subject to "unaccompanied minor" procedures, which for a cruise line means restricting the S&S card of the minor to not allow disembarking without an accompanying parent or guardian.  Again, let's not get to literal here. 

[pdmlynek]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Let's not get too literal here.

You are right.  😄  I was just joking around.  

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, pdmlynek said:

You are right.  😄  I was just joking around.  

Figured you might be gigging me for correcting you.  No worries.

[Hey! Jude]

Hi All,  I am the OP of the thread. I am Canadian.  I have returned from a cruise on Celebrity Millennium starting in LA, Catalina Island, San Francisco, Victoria BC and ending in Vancouver BC. While on the phone with the Captains Club agent, I asked if it was possible to disembark in Victoria rather than Vancouver. They said to send an email to emergency travel services and state my request and citizenship. I indicated that it was not an emergency, however they said that it is just the name of the email address. The process is downlining. I submitted my request.  After a week I called to see what the status was and they said it had been approved and that I would be notified on the ship.

Fast forward to the night before we were getting off and we went to the customer service desk where they said to come in the morning with our luggage - and then we left the ship with a few others who were doing the same thing as well as about 4 people who were dropping off their large luggage and returning to the ship to go on to Vancouver. Their plan was to go back to Victoria in a few days.

Once we left the ship we reported to the Canadian Boarder desk and showed passports and were on our way. 

Judi

[talltimbers]

We live in Victoria BC and did the Alaska cruise leaving from Vancouver BC. In May 2019. My TA arranged with the cruise line (Princess) for us to disembark in Victoria the night before final arrival back in Vancouver BC. There were no issues doing this.

[Aquahound]

2 hours ago, talltimbers said:

We live in Victoria BC and did the Alaska cruise leaving from Vancouver BC. In May 2019. My TA arranged with the cruise line (Princess) for us to disembark in Victoria the night before final arrival back in Vancouver BC. There were no issues doing this.

 

That's good to hear but I am somewhat surprised Canada's cabotage laws allow that.  

[K32682]

On 6/4/2023 at 9:03 PM, Hey! Jude said:

Hi All,  I am the OP of the thread. I am Canadian.  I have returned from a cruise on Celebrity Millennium starting in LA, Catalina Island, San Francisco, Victoria BC and ending in Vancouver BC. While on the phone with the Captains Club agent, I asked if it was possible to disembark in Victoria rather than Vancouver. They said to send an email to emergency travel services and state my request and citizenship. I indicated that it was not an emergency, however they said that it is just the name of the email address. The process is downlining. I submitted my request.  After a week I called to see what the status was and they said it had been approved and that I would be notified on the ship.

Fast forward to the night before we were getting off and we went to the customer service desk where they said to come in the morning with our luggage - and then we left the ship with a few others who were doing the same thing as well as about 4 people who were dropping off their large luggage and returning to the ship to go on to Vancouver. Their plan was to go back to Victoria in a few days.

Once we left the ship we reported to the Canadian Boarder desk and showed passports and were on our way. 

Judi

 

As predicted last January. 

 

On 1/28/2023 at 8:30 AM, K32682 said:

I have left a cruise early and didn't beg "permission." After embarkation I informed the cruise line of my intentions to disembark in Halifax instead of proceeding to NYC. It wasn't a problem and I doubt they would have kept me on the boat and deny me return to my own country. 

 

Despite all the hand wringing, dire warnings about cabotage, seeking "permission," declarations cruise ships did not do this anymore a fairly simple process was followed and you disembarked one stop early. Despite what some posters believe it is not a massively complicated task to get off a cruise ship. 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by K32682

[navybankerteacher]

8 minutes ago, K32682 said:

 

As predicted last January. 

 

 

Despite all the hand wringing, dire warnings about cabotage, seeking "permission," declarations cruise ships did not do this anymore a fairly simple process was followed and you disembarked one stop early. Despite what some posters believe it is not a massively complicated task to get off a cruise ship. 

 

 

It does, however, possibly depend upon certain variables: your citizenship, the country(s) in which the final port and the “one port early” are located, whether there is the necessary immigration facility in the port, etc.  

 

Yes, you usually can - but not always - and just what is wrong with asking permission?  You are, in fact, changing the terms of your agreement with the cruise line, and there just might be some conditions whose implications  fall outside of your realm of expertise.

[Aquahound]

It is incredibly foolish to be nonchalant about it.  Canada's Coasting Trade Act (like US PVSA) specifically prohibits transport between two places in Canada on a non-Canadian flagged vessel.  I'm certainly not saying it's not possible, but it very well could come with repercussions, which is why cruisers should always do the right thing and research & ask permission.  Hey!Jude's example looks legal for the very simple reason the cruise did not embark in another Canadian port.  Talltimbers' example does not look legal.  

Edited June 19, 2023 by Aquahound

[Heidi13]

20 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

That's good to hear but I am somewhat surprised Canada's cabotage laws allow that.  

 

The Coasting Trade Act permits disembarkation at the same port provided they visit a foreign port, but disembarkation at another Canadian Port is a contravention of the Act, unless approved by the Minister of Transport.

 

At least those were the requirements when I was working and not aware they changed.

[Heidi13]

22 hours ago, talltimbers said:

We live in Victoria BC and did the Alaska cruise leaving from Vancouver BC. In May 2019. My TA arranged with the cruise line (Princess) for us to disembark in Victoria the night before final arrival back in Vancouver BC. There were no issues doing this.

 

You were fortunate, as by letting you board in Vancouver and disembark in Victoria, the ship contravened the Coasting Trade Act, which is the Canadian equivalent of the US PVSA. The ship was liable for a substantial fine.

[K32682]

12 hours ago, Aquahound said:

It is incredibly foolish to be nonchalant about it.  Canada's Coasting Trade Act (like US PVSA) specifically prohibits transport between two places in Canada on a non-Canadian flagged vessel.  I'm certainly not saying it's not possible, but it very well could come with repercussions, which is why cruisers should always do the right thing and research & ask permission.  Hey!Jude's example looks legal for the very simple reason the cruise did not embark in another Canadian port.  Talltimbers' example does not look legal.  

 

I would expect the cruise line is better informed that anyone here on the current requirements of the Coastal Trading Act and the specifics of the example that seems to concern you. 

 

On this thread we have three examples of cruisers who left ship early without great drama. We did not have to beg permission like errant school children asking teacher if they can go pee, nor did we tremble in fear about cabotage or "breaking our contract."

 

The process is quite easy. Inform the cruise line of your intentions and they will expedite the process. There may be an extra cost and in some limited circumstances the cruise line may not be able to facilitate the request. Ignore the passive aggressive posters who are determined to make the process far more complicated than it actually is.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by K32682

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

I would expect the cruise line is better informed that anyone here on the current requirements of the Coastal Trading Act and the specifics of the example that seems to concern you. 

 

On this thread we have three examples of cruisers who left ship early without great drama. We did not have to beg permission like errant school children asking teacher if they can go pee, nor did we tremble in fear about cabotage or "breaking our contract."

 

The process is quite easy. Inform the cruise line of your intentions and they will expedite the process. There may be an extra cost and in some limited circumstances the cruise line may not be able to facilitate the request. Ignore the passive aggressive posters who are determined to make the process far more complicated than it actually is.

 

 

Requesting permission of the line (who might be aware of serious obstacles) to change the terms of passage is hardly comparable to

”…errant school children asking teacher if they can go pee.”  It is, rather, a reasonable approach to what might be a complicated situation created by last minute change of plans.  And it is important to recognize the fact that:  

“There may be an extra cost and in some limited circumstances the cruise line may not be able to facilitate the request”.

 

That is why it is recommended that passengers give the line as much notice as possible of wishes to change debarkation port.

[Heidi13]

6 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

I would expect the cruise line is better informed that anyone here on the current requirements of the Coastal Trading Act and the specifics of the example that seems to concern you. 

 

 

 

Not even close to being factual. Since when calling a cruise line you are dealing with customer service or sales personnel, who have zero training in Canadian Maritime regulations.

 

I studied Canadian Maritime Regulations for my Masters and used them for > 30 years. So I highly doubt anyone at Princess knows Canadian Regulations better than I do. BTW, I even knew many of the Operations Managers and none of them completed Canadian Certificates of Competency, so didn't cover Canadian Regs.

[K32682]

26 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Not even close to being factual. Since when calling a cruise line you are dealing with customer service or sales personnel, who have zero training in Canadian Maritime regulations.

 

I studied Canadian Maritime Regulations for my Masters and used them for > 30 years. So I highly doubt anyone at Princess knows Canadian Regulations better than I do. BTW, I even knew many of the Operations Managers and none of them completed Canadian Certificates of Competency, so didn't cover Canadian Regs.

 

I am quite sure the personnel in charge of the boat are competent on the relevant laws for the waters in which they are sailing and policies would be in place to prevent any violations. 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by K32682

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, K32682 said:

 

I am quite sure the personnel in charge of the boat are competent on the relevant laws for the waters in which they are sailing and policies would be in place to prevent any violations. 

 

 

Since Heidi13 is a Canadian Ship Captain, he would be well versed in the CTA, which is a Canadian domestic cabotage law.  Most Captains rely on local agents for possible local laws that may affect the ship, they are not subject matter experts on them, and the agents are not legal experts either.  The laws that the Captains know intimately are the ones from the flag state, and the country that issued their license.  The only people at the cruise line who are well versed in national cabotage laws are the compliance department (lawyers), which is why so many back to back cruises are booked by the call center customer service representatives, only for the passenger to be notified months later, by the compliance department, that their cruise is not legal, and they have to cancel part of the booking.

[ontheweb]

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Since Heidi13 is a Canadian Ship Captain, he would be well versed in the CTA, which is a Canadian domestic cabotage law.  Most Captains rely on local agents for possible local laws that may affect the ship, they are not subject matter experts on them, and the agents are not legal experts either.  The laws that the Captains know intimately are the ones from the flag state, and the country that issued their license.  The only people at the cruise line who are well versed in national cabotage laws are the compliance department (lawyers), which is why so many back to back cruises are booked by the call center customer service representatives, only for the passenger to be notified months later, by the compliance department, that their cruise is not legal, and they have to cancel part of the booking.

You left out one thing the passengers who were allowed to book illegal cruises do---they come to these boards to complain.

[Aquahound]

7 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Not even close to being factual. Since when calling a cruise line you are dealing with customer service or sales personnel, who have zero training in Canadian Maritime regulations.

 

I studied Canadian Maritime Regulations for my Masters and used them for > 30 years. So I highly doubt anyone at Princess knows Canadian Regulations better than I do. BTW, I even knew many of the Operations Managers and none of them completed Canadian Certificates of Competency, so didn't cover Canadian Regs.

 

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Since Heidi13 is a Canadian Ship Captain, he would be well versed in the CTA, which is a Canadian domestic cabotage law.  Most Captains rely on local agents for possible local laws that may affect the ship, they are not subject matter experts on them, and the agents are not legal experts either.  The laws that the Captains know intimately are the ones from the flag state, and the country that issued their license.  The only people at the cruise line who are well versed in national cabotage laws are the compliance department (lawyers), which is why so many back to back cruises are booked by the call center customer service representatives, only for the passenger to be notified months later, by the compliance department, that their cruise is not legal, and they have to cancel part of the booking.

Thank you. Unfortunately, I have a feeling facts still will not change the flawed opinions of a certain few. Oh well. You can only do so much. 

[sanger727]

On 2/12/2023 at 10:31 AM, GeezerCouple said:

 

 

I have no special knowledge of whether or how fines are administered, and chengkp75 has just given another of his well-informed posts that address this issue.

 

I was simply referring to whether there would be difficulty with the *ship/cruise line* if a passenger was determined to be sick enough to require more medical care than the ship's medical staff and facilities could provide.

I have never heard of, and cannot imagine, any ship having a patient ill enough to need transfer to better, more substantial medical facilities being told, "Yes, the ship physician thinks you must get to a hospital as soon as possible, but... so sorry, there are cabotage laws, so we cannot let you off the ship.  Sorry 'bout that!"

 

 

 

Can you imagine the lawsuit if a passenger had a major medical issue and died onboard because the ship refused to let them off to be hospitalized. Even if they have to pay the fine, that's a drop in the bucket. 

[K32682]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Since Heidi13 is a Canadian Ship Captain, he would be well versed in the CTA, which is a Canadian domestic cabotage law.  Most Captains rely on local agents for possible local laws that may affect the ship, they are not subject matter experts on them, and the agents are not legal experts either.  The laws that the Captains know intimately are the ones from the flag state, and the country that issued their license.  The only people at the cruise line who are well versed in national cabotage laws are the compliance department (lawyers), which is why so many back to back cruises are booked by the call center customer service representatives, only for the passenger to be notified months later, by the compliance department, that their cruise is not legal, and they have to cancel part of the booking.

 

Not impressed. We have three cases of passenger were allowed off early. In this thread we not had an example of anyone who was denied disembarkation for any of the reasons cited by other posters.

 

Compliance lawyers in large companies set policies and for cruise lines they would be applying policies to prevent violations of locals laws that would attract large fines and perhaps prevent future sailings. I strongly suspect those cruise companies have sailed the waters far more often than any single sea captain. 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by K32682