River Cruise Line Ownership

[reeves35]

With the huge growth in river cruising in recent years which seems to continue post-Pandemic, do we see a time when one or more of the major Big 3 US cruise-lines (Carnival Corp, RCCI, NCL) will try to enter this market either via starting up or taking over one of the existing major participants?

 

Currently many of the river cruise companies remain in private hands including Scenic (Australia), APT (Australia), Avalon (Switzerland), Viking (Norway), Ama Waterways (US) though trying to work out exactly who owns what is quite complicated given many ships seem to be developed by the cruiselines then sold and leased back from private equity investors.  At some point, one of these private owners will probably seek to cash-out and you would think the Big-3 cruise lines would be attracted to this market if the opportunity arose.  

 

The Big-3 have developed sophisticated loyalty schemes that enable them to know their customers' travel habits and market to different demographics, many of whom are now trying river cruises.  It would be strange if one of them didn't try their hand in this burgeoning market at some time soon.

 

[CastleCritic]

I mean Viking is going the other way....I was amazed how many ocean ships they have under construction (albeit it by comparison pretty small ones)

 

Scenic, Crystal, there are and have been others with both ocean and river ships.

 

I would more see NCL, Carnival or Royal Carribean buying a line rather than trying to build new ships as you say when the current owners want to retire at a company like AMA that has 2 owners basically, a lot of the ports don't need more ships as is.  I can more see Disney doing their own than the others (last I heard they do charters with AMA).

Edited July 7, 2023 by CastleCritic

[RobInMN]

14 hours ago, CastleCritic said:

I would more see NCL, Carnival or Royal Carribean buying a line rather than trying to build new ships as you say when the current owners want to retire at a company like AMA that has 2 owners basically, a lot of the ports don't need more ships as is.  I can more see Disney doing their own than the others (last I heard they do charters with AMA).

I agree. I've kind of wondered this myself. I could see Royal Caribbean being a good fit for Ama if the owners ever want to retire/sell. If they ever did, I'd love it if they merged the loyalty program, but they won't even merge RC's & Celebrity, so I doubt it.

 

We found AMA in  2019 specifically because (at that time anyway) we were looking for a 3 generation family vacation. My parents had done many river cruises and we'd done one with them years ago. They were interested in taking the grand kids, but the companies the usually used didn't allow kids (10, 13, & 19), so we were looking around at other companies and ran across a cruises through Disney Vacations. After looking into that, we realized that they chartered Ama cruises. So we skipped the Disney mark up and booked directly (or via a TA) with Ama. 

 

[Roz]

The rivers are crowded as it is,  so I can't imagine a bunch of ocean cruise lines jumping into the fray.   That said,  I think Holland America, Princess,  and Celebrity have the clientele that a river cruise would appeal to. 

[Host Jazzbeau]

Other than Viking, no river cruise line has anywhere near enough beds to interest the major ocean cruise lines.  Note that none of them picked up the 5 Crystal river ships.  But if they are interested, the Vantage river ships are available.

[CastleCritic]

47 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Other than Viking, no river cruise line has anywhere near enough beds to interest the major ocean cruise lines.  Note that none of them picked up the 5 Crystal river ships.  But if they are interested, the Vantage river ships are available.

Still, why they dont at least do partnerships for a river+ocean duo at least, Basel to Amsterdam get on the Carnival Norwegian of the seas in Amsterdam and head over and see the UK and Ireland for a few more days.

 

Again I think Viking does this but again they have both types of ships,

 

I guess if you look at it as revenue per ship/week vs revenue vs passenger then they wouldn't be interested.

[Roz]

2 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Other than Viking, no river cruise line has anywhere near enough beds to interest the major ocean cruise lines.  Note that none of them picked up the 5 Crystal river ships.  But if they are interested, the Vantage river ships are available.

 

I would think that only a small subset of the ocean cruise passengers would be interested in a river cruise.  When I mentioned  Holland America, Princess, and Celebrity, I wasn't implying that they would want or need thousands upon thousands of berths to accommodate all of the passengers that occupy their current fleet.

[Host Jazzbeau]

1 minute ago, Roz said:

 

I would think that only a small subset of the ocean cruise passengers would be interested in a river cruise.  When I mentioned  Holland America, Princess, and Celebrity, I wasn't implying that they would want or need thousands upon thousands of berths to accommodate all of the passengers that occupy their current fleet.

Nor did I think that way.  I meant that the possible profits from a river cruising operation aren't worth the effort for operations of that size.

[CastleCritic]

4 minutes ago, Roz said:

 

I would think that only a small subset of the ocean cruise passengers would be interested in a river cruise.  When I mentioned  Holland America, Princess, and Celebrity, I wasn't implying that they would want or need thousands upon thousands of berths to accommodate all of the passengers that occupy their current fleet.

I guess that depends on motivation.

 

If your goal is to have a floating shopping mall with 10 restaurants, a roller coaster, zip line, and skydiving pod ON THE SHIP and a broadway show every night...no river cruising isn't for you.

 

For me the point of the cruise is to see the place, the ship is just where I eat and sleep (and look out the window or sit on the top deck.)  Im sure Im not the only one, but Ive certainly seen people calling even the older cruise ships "boring" so river isnt definitely everyone's speed.

Edited July 7, 2023 by CastleCritic

[Roz]

@Host Jazzbeau, thanks for the clarification.

[Roz]

Just now, CastleCritic said:

I guess that depends on motivation.

 

If your goal is to have a floating shopping mall with 10 restaurants, a roller coaster, zip line, and skydiving pod ON THE SHIP and a broadway show every night...no river cruising isn't for you.

 

For me the point of the cruise is to see the place, the ship is just where I eat and sleep (and look out the window or sit on the top deck.  Im sure Im not the only one, but Ive certainly seen people calling even the older cruise ships "boring" so river isnt definitely everyone's speed.

 

The 3 lines I mentioned don't tend to have the kind of ships with go kart tracks, roller coasters, zip lines, etc.  I'm an ocean cruiser and a river cruiser.  I enjoy a Broadway production show on an ocean ship but don't expect that on a river cruise.  It doesn't have to be one or the other.

[CastleCritic]

Just now, Roz said:

 

The 3 lines I mentioned don't tend to have the kind of ships with go kart tracks, roller coasters, zip lines, etc.  I'm an ocean cruiser and a river cruiser.  I enjoy a Broadway production show on an ocean ship but don't expect that on a river cruise.  It doesn't have to be one or the other.

no those 3 wouldn't have massive attractions on their ships, though celebrity does have a bar hanging off the side of the new ones...I guess that doesnt count.

[Host Jazzbeau]

A few ocean lines have tried to coordinate land tours with their sailings.  It doesn't seem to have taken off.  To coordinate with a river cruise you have to have both the ocean schedule and the river schedule set in place, and then if anything changes for either one you have a lot of unhappy passengers.  I think this is going to stay a DIY thing, with the passenger taking all the risk of changes...

[NantahalaCruiser]

After their pandemic-related financial problems, I'm sure they are currently more interested in firming up their core business than taking on a new business segment.

[CastleCritic]

8 minutes ago, NantahalaCruiser said:

After their pandemic-related financial problems, I'm sure they are currently more interested in firming up their core business than taking on a new business segment.

Based on what I’m seeing it’s pretty firm though they are cheesing some people off with fee increases and service cut backs. 
 

I know celebrity has made some angst the last little while by canceling the summer season(without any real compensation) in Europe 2024 for a ship and moving it to Fort Lauderdale so I dunno if there are some segments that aren’t quite as good, but also seeing comments like “they aren’t going to change as long as the ships stay as full as they are now”

Edited July 7, 2023 by CastleCritic

[CPT Trips]

4 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

But if they are interested, the Vantage river ships are available.

Or, the company that owns the river ships will either put them back in their service or just lease them to another established company. 

[RobInMN]

2 hours ago, CastleCritic said:

I guess that depends on motivation.

 

If your goal is to have a floating shopping mall with 10 restaurants, a roller coaster, zip line, and skydiving pod ON THE SHIP and a broadway show every night...no river cruising isn't for you.

 

For me the point of the cruise is to see the place, the ship is just where I eat and sleep (and look out the window or sit on the top deck.)  Im sure Im not the only one, but Ive certainly seen people calling even the older cruise ships "boring" so river isnt definitely everyone's speed.

 

They all have their place, and we enjoy them all for various reasons.

We love the Oasis class Royal Caribbean ships. We've done them a couple times in the Caribbean and will do another one this fall. We've also done Western Mediterranean on one (spending a week in Rome before hand). We will also likely do Icon once she's not that new and the prices are a bit more reasonable. Yes, these can be more about the ship than the ports, especially in the Caribbean. We also like the older Voyager classes, which were the largest before the Oasis class. These are branching out beyond the Caribbean. Their Quantum class (contemporary to the Oasis) is also designed to go more places, and we will be doing Greece and Israel (2 stops) Fall '24.

We also enjoy Royal's smaller & older Radiance class. These ships go to far more ports and places larger ships would never go. These are obviously much more about the ports than the ship, but the ships are still very nice, with amenities that we enjoy. We've done Norway (all the way up to Honnigsvag), Iceland, and will be doing Panama Canal next spring on one.

But, we also really enjoy river cruising. Just because we like large ocean ships with lots of entertainment and dining options, doesn't mean that we can't like river cruise ships also. River cruising is obviously going to get us places that an ocean cruise ship will never be able to get us. It's absolutely ports over ship.

Yes, if you expect to go on a river cruise and expect the amenities and extras of an ocean cruise, especially from one of the big Caribbean companies, you are delusional and will be very disappointed. But if you go into it knowing what you are getting, there's no reason you can't enjoy it for what it is also. We've done 5 now, and looking at doing Amsterdam to Basel (or reverse) Spring of '25. I think at some point, we'll probably settle into doing both each year.

Both ocean and river cruising have the very important aspect that you unpack once, and your hotel goes with you. (pre & post extensions aside)

 

 

 

[CastleCritic]

To be clear Im not knocking Ocean cruises, in fact my next two (Virgin Med in October, RCI Radiance class in May to Norway) are ocean cruises...then Egypt with AMA in January 2025.

 

Its been a long long time since Ive done an ocean cruise, Im very curious to see my take after those cruises.  I don't think I would like an Oasis class or something that large since Im not really a fan of people in general, much less 6,000 of them wanting to do the things Im doing :).

 

Just agreeing that not everyone who does ocean would be a fan of river and perhaps vice versa.

Edited July 8, 2023 by CastleCritic

[RobInMN]

3 minutes ago, CastleCritic said:

Its been a long long time since Ive done an ocean cruise, Im very curious to see my take after those cruises.  I don't think I would like an Oasis class or something that large since Im not really a fan of people in general, much less 6,000 of them wanting to do the things Im doing :).

We don't really like crowds either, and don't do the big party things or hang out at the pool. But even though an Oasis ship might have a maximum of 6600 passengers plus 2200 crew, there's just that much more space to put everyone. If you divide out the airconditioned space (which eliminates the pool decks and outside areas), by the maximum occupancy, it's about 183 sq ft. per person. I believe that's more than a river cruise ship. I've never had a problem finding a quite place when I wanted to.

[Got2Cruise]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:56 PM, RobInMN said:

We don't really like crowds either, and don't do the big party things or hang out at the pool. But even though an Oasis ship might have a maximum of 6600 passengers plus 2200 crew, there's just that much more space to put everyone. If you divide out the airconditioned space (which eliminates the pool decks and outside areas), by the maximum occupancy, it's about 183 sq ft. per person. I believe that's more than a river cruise ship. I've never had a problem finding a quite place when I wanted to.

You can’t possibly use square footage to compare crowds on a River ship and an ocean liner. 
 

River Cruise everyone is off the ship and on their way on excursions within 15 mins. Ocean cruises it can take hours when tendering is involved. There is also the “class” system in play ala the Titanic when it comes to dining, seating and getting off the ship on the ocean liners. 

[Coral]

On 7/7/2023 at 11:53 AM, RobInMN said:

I agree. I've kind of wondered this myself. I could see Royal Caribbean being a good fit for Ama if the owners ever want to retire/sell. If they ever did, I'd love it if they merged the loyalty program, but they won't even merge RC's & Celebrity, so I doubt it.

 

I actually don't think RCCL would be a good fit for Ama.

 

Also remember, they got rid of Azamara.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Coral

[Host Jazzbeau]

Abercrombie & Kent, the new owners of Crystal Cruises, has river cruise charters (on Amadeus ships).  They would be the most likely to link a river cruise with an ocean cruise, on the rare occasion when one of the Crystal ships is starting/ending in Amsterdam.

 

The other line that I would think might be interested is Azamara, which has always focused on destination immersion.  And they would like up well with AMA in terms of quality, ambience and customer profile.

[RobInMN]

29 minutes ago, Coral said:

Also remember, they got rid of Azamara.

RCI sold Azamara in January '21. In July '20, they had purchased the outstanding portion of Silversea (which they purchased the majority of in '18). Arguably a larger operation for luxury (and expedition) cruises, and during COVID, I assume they decided that they didn't need both. At the time, Azamara had 3 ships, and Silversea 9(?). Azamara has since added 1, and Silversea has 11 with 2 more on order.

 

So, it has nothing to do with not wanting a luxury component. With their purchase of Silverseas, river cruising is about the only portion of their portfolio not covered.

 

[Coral]

7 minutes ago, RobInMN said:

RCI sold Azamara in January '21. In July '20, they had purchased the outstanding portion of Silversea (which they purchased the majority of in '18). Arguably a larger operation for luxury (and expedition) cruises, and during COVID, I assume they decided that they didn't need both. At the time, Azamara had 3 ships, and Silversea 9(?). Azamara has since added 1, and Silversea has 11 with 2 more on order.

 

So, it has nothing to do with not wanting a luxury component. With their purchase of Silverseas, river cruising is about the only portion of their portfolio not covered.

 

I still don't think it is a good fit. I don't think it will happen. My response had nothing to do with luxury component. 

[RobInMN]

1 hour ago, Coral said:

I don't think it will happen.

I do agree with that part. But this whole conversation is purely hypothetical.