Food for thought

[Longhorn-ED]

My wife and I are sailing in a few weeks on the TP to Japan in Aqua class. We always look at what future cruise we want to book on the ship. Not this time as we are going to evaluate our Celebrity cruise experience and decide our options going forward. We hope to be on Celebrity again.

[bnurick]

The core issue is X sold ‘All Inclusive’ and they cannot deliver. The result is ‘word smithing’ what was promised. X is simply a bad counterparty risk for the cruiser in this moment in time.

[horseymike]

2 hours ago, What A Market said:

Interesting to think about this.

But companies, publicly traded or private, do not make up “for lost revenues.”

You just move forward after losses.

 

Maybe you raise capital or debt (to deal with negative cash flows) and all publicly traded cruise holding companies did so. High cost debt raised by cruise companies is a new burden to bear.

 

All you can do going forward is try to make money. That’s what all companies do. I don’t think CEOs and their boards are trying to do anything sneaky or nefarious.  They exist to provide a product and generate profits. Tough to do at times, but not that complicated.

As you eloquently stated “ provide a product “ . Providing a product whose reputation sells itself is a good start , as opposed to an inferior one that leaves customers disappointed.

[horseymike]

1 hour ago, CNSfromHI said:

I'm guessing this will draw the ire of some here, but sometimes, companies are not trying to slip anything past customers.

 

Sometimes, companies are just really lousy at communicating. I've read this lament about Celebrity many times on this site, and I've thought it too.

 

☝️☝️☝️☝️

 

cjr

 

Only when they want to be lousy at communicating. Example:

The so called endless “ sales “ that are really not sales at all, just rearranging the numbers.

[lv2cruisgrl]

1 hour ago, ECCruise said:

Sorry, but your idea of "cheap" doesn't equate with the well over $6 figures that we've spent on =X= in the last 2 decades.  30+ sailings.  15 different ships. 6 continents. 

 

So yes, as a newbie you have every right to voice your opinion.  But please don't decide what our thinking or our experience is as you weigh in from the new seats.

Right on!

[markeb]

21 minutes ago, miched said:

You don’t make more by providing less.  Many companies went out of business by trying to do that.  
 

Kmart use to be one of the best places to shop.  You could get almost anything there.   They kept cutting their product line and lost their customers.   Someone decided that they could make more money by selling Kate Jackson’s clothing line.   Didn’t work. 

 

There was a chain here called Service Merchandise.   It went out of business because it eventually didn’t provide any service or the merchandise. 
 

If people don’t find value in something they will move on to find something else.  
 

Cruising is a luxury, or novelty and not a necessity.   I lived many years before my first cruise.   I do enjoy being on a cruise but I can live without it and can always find something else to do.   
 

As I write this I am sitting on my deck enjoying the summer having a beer.  A lot cheaper than being on a cruise and not restricted by what they have to offer.   

I know that I can’t take it with me but I don’t believe in throwing away my money for a product that doesn’t deliver what was promised.

 

 

Happy cruising 🌊🚢🇺🇸🌅
 

 

 

Fascinating examples...

 

Kmart never really did anything well. It was inexpensive and had a decent operational efficiency model. Some guy from Arkansas who liked to dress in overalls created an empire out of low prices and operational efficiency. You want to hear a true horror story, talk to a trucker who missed his dock time by 2 minutes at a Walmart...  Kate Jackson clothing line? Really? Kmart was destroyed by Walmart. As was Sears. And they didn't see it coming.

 

Service Merchandise was likewise outflanked by Walmart, Circuit City!, Best Buy, and Bed Bath and Beyond! Circuit City is long gone and Bed Bath and Beyond is in liquidation last I looked. Haven't looked at their financials lately, but Best Buy is hardly secure.

 

Some guy from Seattle largely outflanked all of them, again with an operational efficiency model. Sell everything. Let the buyer purchase online. Deliver it overnight. Rinse and repeat.

 

I have serious concerns with X at this point, but it's from a strategic point. Beyond paying shareholders, what is RCG's strategy? How do they differentiate Royal from Celebrity from Seaborne? They brought in a president, who is NOT a CEO with a specific history that she's executing (again, not a CEO; I have to believe she's being directed and is good at what she's been directed to do) that people on this board don't like. But if it makes money, the shareholders will, and that's the obligation of the Board and CEO.

 

And speaking of beer, what beer? One of the seeming 10,000 brands now part of AB-InBev? Let's really talk about consolidation!

[ILgirl]

On a positive note, I am looking at this as a bit of an adventure, i.e. a time to try something new.  My late husband and I sailed six straight Princess cruises and the switched to Celebrity.  I have been on 8 Celebrity since his passing and have 4 more booked.  I took an NCL transatlantic solo in June because a T A was on my bucket list. I had a great time.  I don’t understand the poor beverage comment on NCL above as I am a bourbon drinker and Buffalo Trace is included on the NCL basic package and is premium with Celebrity.  Next month I am trying Princess again.  There are so many options out there.  I am finding it fun to try something new!  Life is too short.😀

[phoenix_dream]

1 hour ago, retird said:

I believe cruising is still a good bang for my buck.  I believe that because I can still cruise for a week in a balcony cabin, with very good dining and entertainment thrown in , for what I have to pay for a return economy airline seat for two of us from Toronto to Heathrow.  just my two cents worth.  I am surprised the cruising industry survived as well as it did after more than two years of little or no revenue coming in.   

For the record, the cruise lines were not shut down for two years.  I sailed in March of 2020 right before the shutdown and again in September of 2021.  The sailings began even earlier than September but that was my first.  I will grant you that for quite some time after restart the ships were not full so they definitely didn't have full revenue but not sure I would call it little. 

[phoenix_dream]

1 hour ago, ECCruise said:

Sorry, but your idea of "cheap" doesn't equate with the well over $6 figures that we've spent on =X= in the last 2 decades.  30+ sailings.  15 different ships. 6 continents. 

 

So yes, as a newbie you have every right to voice your opinion.  But please don't decide what our thinking or our experience is as you weigh in from the new seats.

I certainly don't remember my 70+ Celebrity cruises as being cheap!  I will say, in fairness, that from the time of the restart until cruises earlier this year the prices were considerably less than we had paid before.  But before that - anything but cheap.  And now - considerably higher than pre-Covid - very often double the price.

[georgiaguy]

58 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Since I've sailed 4 of those lines in the last year, some of your points are valid, some are not.

 

In the final analysis, I can still get better pricing with more included on both Princess and HAL (have several of those booked in the future).  Meanwhile the prices of the 4 =X= cruises I have booked have nearly doubled in the last 6 months (these are sailings in Europe and Asia in mid-2024 and early-2025).  If we booked those cruises direct, and refundable, they would be closing in on even more ridiculous pricing.   No way on earth I would pay those prices today, which anyone booking today would encounter.  Our HAL and Princess cruises in the same time frames (2024 and 2025) have increased either $0 or, one of our HAL sailings, $100.  And all of those, BTW, are fully refundable. 

Might depend on the cruise and how well it is selling. Anecdotally, my cruise for next March is only $500 more than when I booked about 5 months ago. 

[basenji56]

25 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

For the record, the cruise lines were not shut down for two years.  I sailed in March of 2020 right before the shutdown and again in September of 2021.  The sailings began even earlier than September but that was my first.  I will grant you that for quite some time after restart the ships were not full so they definitely didn't have full revenue but not sure I would call it little. 

I look back on those late 2021-early 2022 cruises are some of the best.  Although we had to wear masks, the numbers of passengers were so low and the passenger to crew ration was outstanding.

 

 

[miched]

34 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

Fascinating examples...

 

Kmart never really did anything well. It was inexpensive and had a decent operational efficiency model. Some guy from Arkansas who liked to dress in overalls created an empire out of low prices and operational efficiency. You want to hear a true horror story, talk to a trucker who missed his dock time by 2 minutes at a Walmart...  Kate Jackson clothing line? Really? Kmart was destroyed by Walmart. As was Sears. And they didn't see it coming.

 

Service Merchandise was likewise outflanked by Walmart, Circuit City!, Best Buy, and Bed Bath and Beyond! Circuit City is long gone and Bed Bath and Beyond is in liquidation last I looked. Haven't looked at their financials lately, but Best Buy is hardly secure.

 

Some guy from Seattle largely outflanked all of them, again with an operational efficiency model. Sell everything. Let the buyer purchase online. Deliver it overnight. Rinse and repeat.

 

I have serious concerns with X at this point, but it's from a strategic point. Beyond paying shareholders, what is RCG's strategy? How do they differentiate Royal from Celebrity from Seaborne? They brought in a president, who is NOT a CEO with a specific history that she's executing (again, not a CEO; I have to believe she's being directed and is good at what she's been directed to do) that people on this board don't like. But if it makes money, the shareholders will, and that's the obligation of the Board and CEO.

 

And speaking of beer, what beer? One of the seeming 10,000 brands now part of AB-InBev? Let's really talk about consolidation!

The ironic thing is what Sears originally started as put them out of business.  They were a catalog mail order business and moved to a brick and mortar store.   Amazon destroyed them and many other businesses.   What goes around comes around. 
 

Happy cruising 🌊🚢🇺🇸🌅

[Jeremiah1212]

36 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

For the record, the cruise lines were not shut down for two years.  I sailed in March of 2020 right before the shutdown and again in September of 2021.  The sailings began even earlier than September but that was my first.  I will grant you that for quite some time after restart the ships were not full so they definitely didn't have full revenue but not sure I would call it little. 

They were in pretty terrible shape….

 

 

[georgiaguy]

38 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

They were in pretty terrible shape….

 

 

 

Data is fascinating…

[NMTraveller]

Brought to you by the RCL shareholders.

 

Perhaps we should all send Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos multimillion dollar checks just because their billion dollar corporations are having a rough time.

 

Yet the RCL shareholders have doubled their share price in the last year.  I should feel sorry for them why why why ???  They are making a profit in spite of their loans and building new ships during the downturn.

Edited August 20, 2023 by NMTraveller

[horseymike]

2 hours ago, Longhorn-ED said:

My wife and I are sailing in a few weeks on the TP to Japan in Aqua class. We always look at what future cruise we want to book on the ship. Not this time as we are going to evaluate our Celebrity cruise experience and decide our options going forward. We hope to be on Celebrity again.

What is the TP ?

[kwokpot]

1 minute ago, horseymike said:

What is the TP ?

Transpacific cruise, not toilet paper 😜

[georgiaguy]

1 minute ago, horseymike said:

What is the TP ?

Trans-pacific

[georgiaguy]

15 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Brought to you by the RCL shareholders.

 

Perhaps we should all send Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos multimillion dollar checks just because their billion dollar corporations are having a rough time.

 

Yet the RCL shareholders have doubled their share price in the last year.  I should feel sorry for them why why why ???  They are making a profit in spite of their loans and building new ships during the downturn.

 

Did anyone say we should feel sorry for shareholders? Or the company for that matter?

 

 

[NMTraveller]

3 minutes ago, georgiaguy said:

 

Did anyone say we should feel sorry for shareholders? Or the company for that matter?

 

 

Yet the cuts ARE centered around making more money for the shareholders...

[horseymike]

1 minute ago, NMTraveller said:

Yet the cuts ARE centered around making more money for the shareholders...

The dividend has been absent for a couple years now.

[NMTraveller]

2 minutes ago, horseymike said:

The dividend has been absent for a couple years now.

And yet the stock price has doubled or come close to it.

 

They would pay down the debt before paying a dividend.

Edited August 21, 2023 by NMTraveller

[markeb]

20 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Brought to you by the RCL shareholders.

 

Perhaps we should all send Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos multimillion dollar checks just because their billion dollar corporations are having a rough time.

 

Yet the RCL shareholders have doubled their share price in the last year.  I should feel sorry for them why why why ???  They are making a profit in spite of their loans and building new ships during the downturn.

 

It's RCG, not RCL.

 

Are you sure your 401(k) doesn't invest in RCG? Probably not, as they're not rated high on anyone's buy list, and haven't paid a dividend in several years. But there are probably people on this board who have more than a 100 share for OBC investment in RCG. That's why some care. 

 

And yes, according to their 10-Q, RCG is at a $376M net profit through the last quarter versus a $1.529B loss for the same quarter in 2022. They've got a long ways to go to recover their losses for 2020-2022.

[markeb]

3 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

And yet the stock price has doubled or come close to it.

 

They would pay down the debt before paying a dividend.

 

Or sell...

 

Eventually shareholders demand a ROE. 

[NMTraveller]

9 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

It's RCG, not RCL.

 

Are you sure your 401(k) doesn't invest in RCG? Probably not, as they're not rated high on anyone's buy list, and haven't paid a dividend in several years. But there are probably people on this board who have more than a 100 share for OBC investment in RCG. That's why some care. 

 

And yes, according to their 10-Q, RCG is at a $376M net profit through the last quarter versus a $1.529B loss for the same quarter in 2022. They've got a long ways to go to recover their losses for 2020-2022.

RCG is Renn Fund and RCL is Royal Carribean Group...

 

Yes I would suppose that most 401Ks do have RCL in their portfolios.  At least in mine any one stock does not make much of a difference.

Edited August 21, 2023 by NMTraveller