Are Grgich Hills wines gone?

[JeanieC,Aston]

Hi Markeb.

I don’t really drink wine,,,most of the time it’s Irish whiskey and Guinness and bitter.

But I do enjoy being educated about wine reading your knowledgable observations.

 

I did enjoy a glass of Villa Maria on my recent cruise…..which my local Asda sells here in the UK,,what do you think?

 

[markeb]

2 hours ago, JeanieC,Aston said:

Hi Markeb.

I don’t really drink wine,,,most of the time it’s Irish whiskey and Guinness and bitter.

But I do enjoy being educated about wine reading your knowledgable observations.

 

I did enjoy a glass of Villa Maria on my recent cruise…..which my local Asda sells here in the UK,,what do you think?

 

 

Did you like it? That's all that really matters. Villa Maria makes a very typical New Zealand Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc at a good price point. I don't know that I've had it; the Marlborough (grapefruit heavy taste) style is one I personally don't care for. But it's probably the most popular style out there. Most California and French (it's the grape of Sancerre, for instance) Sauvignon Blanc have a totally different flavor.

 

I just find wine to be very personal. Regardless of ratings or grape or age, two people sitting side by side with the same wine can have totally different experiences. And that's a good thing!

[NMTraveller]

So how far is a walk from Cellar Masters to the Sky Lounge on Millenium?

 

Best wine selection to best views?

Edited November 2, 2023 by NMTraveller

[zitsky]

12 hours ago, markeb said:

 

I didn't suggest wines only from Livermore and Lodi. But there are great wines from both locations, typically at better price points than Napa. Define "better"? More expensive? Older? Single varietal?

 

Price is at best a very imperfect indicator of quality. It's a reasonable indicator of perceived provenance of the wine (a Grand Cru Burgundy is going to be much more expensive than a Willamette Valley Pinot Noir). But I know plenty of wine drinkers, including some wine snobs (and I can be one) that prefer an Oregon Pinot to a Burgundy. so to them, Burgundy isn't "better", just more expensive.

 

Age? Good indicator for traditional reds and some whites, but again, there is a huge group of wine drinkers who buy and drink young wines (see for instance, the popularity of Caymus for it's year to year consistency, not its ability to lay down and age). But wine changes as it ages, and there are people who don't like those changes (I do, at least for most better reds).

 

Single varietals? Many if not most of the world's greatest wines are and have always been blends. The concentration on varietals (Cabernet Sauvignon) versus location (Bordeaux) is a relatively recent, New World thing. And even there it's inconsistent. Opus One is a blend. Many Napa Valley cabs are actually blends, but they meet the requirement (75% cab, BTW) to be marketed as a Cabernet Sauvignon. Actually, Opus One in most years could probably be marketed at a Cabernet, but they don't do that.

 

At $60 a bottle (allowing for regional price differences) you should be able to find a really good wine. They can get better as price increases, but for many (most?) people there's a point of diminishing returns. I have bottles of Opus. I also have bottles that I consider as good or better than Opus that were about half the price. Most of those go into the basement for 8-10 years or more. They're not good candidates to go on a cruise ship wine list. I mean they have Opus listed in the app, but no vintage. It's probably 2019, which would be criminal to open! But $60/bottle at retail is probably $25-30/glass in a restaurant, give or take. The old rule of thumb was to pay off the bottle in about 2 1/2 glasses if memory serves but looks like most folks now recommend charging the wholesale cost of the bottle for a glass.

 

There's a good argument that Celebrity's wine list is really best described as inexpensive and slightly more expensive, not classic and "premium". But it's almost unheard of outside of true wine bars and high end (Michelin starred or similar) restaurants to have a truly premium by the glass program. And those locations aren't trying to curate a wine list that can be drunk at the pool or with a steak au poivre and white table clothes.

 

DaKahuna's original post and my reply had as much to do with our experience at the smaller, fun wineries in Lodi and Livermore (and Amadore County, etc.) as it had to do with the wine. A really crappy Chianti in a basket bottle is amazing when you're drinking it in Florence! A Lodi zin is incredible when you're tasting it with the winemaker in a old warehouse where his tasting bar is a 2 X 12 over two wine barrels...

Can you name me two “great” wines from Lodi and Livermore that I will find on a Celebrity cruise?  Or just tell me about two great wines from there that I will find at my local wine store.

 

I prefer Central Coast.  I’m one of the snobs that prefers Oregon & California Pinot over Burgundy although I drink plenty of French Bordeaux.

 

Look put decent wines on the X Premium by the glass list and I will drink them.  No more of this $10 a bottle on the Premium list.

[drakes2]

2 hours ago, zitsky said:

Can you name me two “great” wines from Lodi and Livermore that I will find on a Celebrity cruise?  Or just tell me about two great wines from there that I will find at my local wine store.

 

I prefer Central Coast.  I’m one of the snobs that prefers Oregon & California Pinot over Burgundy although I drink plenty of French Bordeaux.

 

Look put decent wines on the X Premium by the glass list and I will drink them.  No more of this $10 a bottle on the Premium list.

I just bought 2 bottles of 7 deadly cabs on clearance at my local store. Great cab from Lodi at a good price 

[drakes2]

3 hours ago, markeb said:

Villa Maria makes a very typical New Zealand Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc at a good price point.

I was first introduced to villa Maria a couple years ago when I had the premium package. Enjoyed it very much and bought six bottles at my wine store when they cleared them out. Recently found cloudy bay also a great SV from New Zealand and will bring it onboard as my 1 bottle allotment later this month. Plan to enjoy on my balcony.  

[markeb]

2 hours ago, zitsky said:

Can you name me two “great” wines from Lodi and Livermore that I will find on a Celebrity cruise?  Or just tell me about two great wines from there that I will find at my local wine store.

 

I prefer Central Coast.  I’m one of the snobs that prefers Oregon & California Pinot over Burgundy although I drink plenty of French Bordeaux.

 

Look put decent wines on the X Premium by the glass list and I will drink them.  No more of this $10 a bottle on the Premium list.

 

That are on the Celebrity wine list? No. Most of them (other than Woodbridge by Mondavi and Wente) are probably too small to even get the attention of a Celebrity buyer. They need volume. As for good to great wines in general, it's been a long time so I remember Wente from Livermore and I wouldn't put most of their wines in the "great" category, but I enjoyed the wines, and more importantly the winery. Most of the other producers were too small at that time to really do much out of state business. From Lodi, the Earthquake wines and Inkblot wines from Michael David are excellent, if you like the style. (I guess Michael David sold the 7 Deadly wines; missed that one). Old Ghost Zinfandel from Klinker Brick has always been an excellent zinfandel. Again, Lodi is its own style; they tend to be high alcohol and fruity, not subtle like Sonoma. We had personal favorites when we lived there, but they've been hard to find and I really can't speak to anything vaguely current.

 

Love Oregon Pinot and many California Pinots. Tend not to go much further south than Russian River unless I really know the wine. I'm not a fan of overly fruity, almost cabernet style Pinot Noir.

 

Wholeheartedly agree on not selling a $10, or even $15-20 wine as "premium", but if the upper limit of the package is $17/glass, that's what you're going to get. It's just a slightly pricier OK wine. It would be an interesting experiment to see if they could manage a $25/glass or so wine program, but it seems unlikely. They used to have the commercial Coravin style systems in Cellar Master where you could buy truly high end wine (not in the packages), but I don't believe they're still there. And the move to drink packages makes it even less likely that someone would pay extra for a great glass of wine. Look at the "can I use my package" threads for the Boulud wine pairings. Almost all restaurants only sell their better wines by the bottle.

 

Anyway, too long of a post. Wine should be enjoyed, not discussed to death!

[zitsky]

9 hours ago, markeb said:

 

That are on the Celebrity wine list? No. Most of them (other than Woodbridge by Mondavi and Wente) are probably too small to even get the attention of a Celebrity buyer. They need volume. As for good to great wines in general, it's been a long time so I remember Wente from Livermore and I wouldn't put most of their wines in the "great" category, but I enjoyed the wines, and more importantly the winery. Most of the other producers were too small at that time to really do much out of state business. From Lodi, the Earthquake wines and Inkblot wines from Michael David are excellent, if you like the style. (I guess Michael David sold the 7 Deadly wines; missed that one). Old Ghost Zinfandel from Klinker Brick has always been an excellent zinfandel. Again, Lodi is its own style; they tend to be high alcohol and fruity, not subtle like Sonoma. We had personal favorites when we lived there, but they've been hard to find and I really can't speak to anything vaguely current.

 

Love Oregon Pinot and many California Pinots. Tend not to go much further south than Russian River unless I really know the wine. I'm not a fan of overly fruity, almost cabernet style Pinot Noir.

 

Wholeheartedly agree on not selling a $10, or even $15-20 wine as "premium", but if the upper limit of the package is $17/glass, that's what you're going to get. It's just a slightly pricier OK wine. It would be an interesting experiment to see if they could manage a $25/glass or so wine program, but it seems unlikely. They used to have the commercial Coravin style systems in Cellar Master where you could buy truly high end wine (not in the packages), but I don't believe they're still there. And the move to drink packages makes it even less likely that someone would pay extra for a great glass of wine. Look at the "can I use my package" threads for the Boulud wine pairings. Almost all restaurants only sell their better wines by the bottle.

 

Anyway, too long of a post. Wine should be enjoyed, not discussed to death!

Wine should be discussed to death.  If you can’t, it’s probably not worth talking about it.

 

Look I drink champagne from New Mexico but I still have standards.  🥸

 

I will search for Lodi locally in NC.

[NMTraveller]

12 minutes ago, zitsky said:

Wine should be discussed to death.  If you can’t, it’s probably not worth talking about it.

 

Look I drink champagne from New Mexico but I still have standards.  🥸

 

I am rather certain that New Mexico does not have their own champagne brands unless they were annexed by France ...😎

[zitsky]

8 hours ago, NMTraveller said:

I am rather certain that New Mexico does not have their own champagne brands unless they were annexed by France ...😎

https://vinepair.com/articles/gruet-winery-brut-guide/

 

https://www.wine.com/product/jacqueline-leonne-brut/513733

 

Read it THEN call your lawyer.

Edited November 3, 2023 by zitsky

[NMTraveller]

52 minutes ago, zitsky said:

https://vinepair.com/articles/gruet-winery-brut-guide/

 

https://www.wine.com/product/jacqueline-leonne-brut/513733

 

Read it THEN call your lawyer.

There is nothing to see here.  They call it a sparkling wine...

[zitsky]

52 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

There is nothing to see here.  They call it a sparkling wine...

Have you called your lawyer about KORBEL Champagne Cellars yet?

[NMTraveller]

10 minutes ago, zitsky said:

Have you called your lawyer about KORBEL Champagne Cellars yet?

Ewwww.  Cold Duck,  Asti Spumanti, Korbel,  free casino comped wine poured from the 1.5 liters,  boxed wine,  all wine poured into a plastic cup, gallons of Gallo.

 

Now to go wash out my palette after that thought...

 

Not a fan...

Edited November 3, 2023 by NMTraveller

[NMTraveller]

20 hours ago, markeb said:

Wholeheartedly agree on not selling a $10, or even $15-20 wine as "premium", but if the upper limit of the package is $17/glass, that's what you're going to get. It's just a slightly pricier OK wine. It would be an interesting experiment to see if they could manage a $25/glass or so wine program, but it seems unlikely. They used to have the commercial Coravin style systems in Cellar Master where you could buy truly high end wine (not in the packages), but I don't believe they're still there. And the move to drink packages makes it even less likely that someone would pay extra for a great glass of wine. Look at the "can I use my package" threads for the Boulud wine pairings. Almost all restaurants only sell their better wines by the bottle.

 

Anyway, too long of a post. Wine should be enjoyed, not discussed to death!

My issue with the list is that there are many more wines at the lower end of the premium dollar amount than there are at the higher end.  I view this as a Celebrity cost saving feature.  AKA a cut to quality and service.  The wines at the higher end are only available in a bar or two.

 

When I cruised on Princess I was drinking Whispering Angel and other wines that were mid range.  And I could drink it at any bar.

Edited November 3, 2023 by NMTraveller

[markeb]

35 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

My issue with the list is that there are many more wines at the lower end of the premium dollar amount than there are at the higher end.  I view this as a Celebrity cost saving feature.  AKA a cut to quality and service.  The wines at the higher end are only available in a bar or two.

 

When I cruised on Princess I was drinking Whispering Angel and other wines that were mid range.  And I could drink it at any bar.

 

I guess I don't really consider Whispering Angel midrange. It retails for less than $13/bottle in most of the US, and the cruise lines may be able to import it directly through a duty free vendor. So it's not priced much more than things they do have on the ship. Celebrity appears to have decided to offer other rose`s. I could look up pricing on those if I really wanted to

 

They do offer Whispering Angel by the bottle in Luminae (at least in the app), but it's priced at an absurd $54 so it would almost certainly be $14 a glass. I realize you were just using Whispering Angel as an example and that there were other wines as well. Do you remember what Princess was charging for it?

 

Personally, I never remember many "good" wines by the glass on Celebrity. It's been too long for Royal or HAL for me to compare. Long before the current changes (years ago) there were periodic threads on CC from people complaining about the by the glass selection on Celebrity. That hasn't changed...

[maggie.1008]

Even on the premium and luxury lines people are complaining about the complimentary wines and wine by the glass. 

[lovecruzin]

Back to Lodi Zin…if you like Lodi try some from El Dorado or Amador county. We loved them when we first moved to El Dorado county but after a few years they were just too much for everyday.

I like something I don't need to have with food. Personal Preference is Santa Lucia and Russian River Chard or Pinot! So the Mer Soleil they have had onboard works for me. I’ll see of they still have it on a week. The Cakebread Pinot in Luminae I believe, is a thing of the past i was told I drank the last bottle 😆 

Cheers

[DaKahuna]

37 minutes ago, lovecruzin said:

. The Cakebread Pinot in Luminae I believe, is a thing of the past i was told I drank the last bottle 😆 

 

 I was told the same thing when I had it on Millennium last April.  The Sommelier mentioned that was the last she had of it as she refilled my glass. 

 

[markeb]

32 minutes ago, DaKahuna said:

 

 I was told the same thing when I had it on Millennium last April.  The Sommelier mentioned that was the last she had of it as she refilled my glass. 

 

 

Just looking at the app and the Pinot Noir by the glass is now a Celebrity co-brand with Jackson Family Wines. I'll give it a try. The Jackson Family Reserve was pretty good last August, but...

 

Cakebread was a decent entry level Pinot Noir. We have OBC. Time to check the bottle offerings!

[drakes2]

39 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

Just looking at the app and the Pinot Noir by the glass is now a Celebrity co-brand with Jackson Family Wines. I'll give it a try. The Jackson Family Reserve was pretty good last August, but...

 

Cakebread was a decent entry level Pinot Noir. We have OBC. Time to check the bottle offerings!

Both the Elegance Pinot and cab made by Kendall Jackson are very good although the pinot is slightly better.  I get 2 bottles of cab gifted onboard which I'll take to the MDR and order the Elegance with my lunch. 

[lovecruzin]

46 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

Just looking at the app and the Pinot Noir by the glass is now a Celebrity co-brand with Jackson Family Wines. I'll give it a try. The Jackson Family Reserve was pretty good last August, but...

 

Cakebread was a decent entry level Pinot Noir. We have OBC. Time to check the bottle offerings!

Cakebread, an appellation specific Pinot that retails for $45+ is hardly entry level.

The Jackson wines are generally “California” I call that entry level.

Unless of course it is made by perhaps Siduri or Hartford 😆 

 

[markeb]

1 minute ago, lovecruzin said:

Cakebread, an appellation specific Pinot that retails for $45+ is hardly entry level.

The Jackson wines are generally “California” I call that entry level.

Unless of course it is made by perhaps Siduri or Hartford 😆 

 

 

Sorry. Brain cramp. You're right. I'm thinking of a different wine and going crazy waiting on a "12-3" repair appointment that's running late...

 

Need a good Pinot Noir!

[DaKahuna]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

 

Just looking at the app and the Pinot Noir by the glass is now a Celebrity co-brand with Jackson Family Wines. I'll give it a try. The Jackson Family Reserve was pretty good last August, but...

 

Cakebread was a decent entry level Pinot Noir. We have OBC. Time to check the bottle offerings!

 

Here is the Jackson Family offering we had:
 

 

 

Don't shoot me but I also enjoyed the Cherry Pie Pinot Noir.  

 

[drakes2]

1 hour ago, DaKahuna said:

 

Here is the Jackson Family offering we had:
 

 

 

Don't shoot me but I also enjoyed the Cherry Pie Pinot Noir.  

 

Didn't care for the cherry pie. The cherry tart pinot was good but replaced post covid.

[NMTraveller]

12 hours ago, markeb said:

 

I guess I don't really consider Whispering Angel midrange. It retails for less than $13/bottle in most of the US, and the cruise lines may be able to import it directly through a duty free vendor. So it's not priced much more than things they do have on the ship. Celebrity appears to have decided to offer other rose`s. I could look up pricing on those if I really wanted to

 

They do offer Whispering Angel by the bottle in Luminae (at least in the app), but it's priced at an absurd $54 so it would almost certainly be $14 a glass. I realize you were just using Whispering Angel as an example and that there were other wines as well. Do you remember what Princess was charging for it?

 

Personally, I never remember many "good" wines by the glass on Celebrity. It's been too long for Royal or HAL for me to compare. Long before the current changes (years ago) there were periodic threads on CC from people complaining about the by the glass selection on Celebrity. That hasn't changed...

Locally Whispering Angel is running for about $22/bottle.

Total Wine & More

 

If you can point me in the direction of $13/bottle I would be more than happy to pick up a couple of boxes.

 

Yes the other bottles in the package were roughly low $20 wines.  My recollection is that it was a 6 bottle or 12 bottle package.  I want to say that they were charging  in the $30 to $35/ bottle range.  I felt that it was a good deal.  It was much less than a beverage package with better wines and good for people who just have a bottle of wine with dinner.