Container Ship Struck Key Bridge in Baltimore, Bridge has Collapsed

[alfaeric]

Chief- one thing that was suggested by another chief engineer on the tube of u's was that there was a fuel system problem.  Which is one system that isn't all that redundant- it's one source that if it goes out, then all of the generators go out.  Is that accurate to your knowledge?

 

I found that curious, where you have all these redundant systems that are fed by a system where a single point failure can take out all of the redundancy.  

 

Not trying to speculate, but that suggestion was just, well, curious given that a failure could shut it all down.

[NMTraveller]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I know you feel that Captains should be relieved of command immediately after any incident, but the US is still a country where you are innocent until proven guilty.

I did not say that.

 

I cited one case where the captain made the national news multiple times for doing something stupid.  Going right out into the middle of the storm,  breaking glassware,  flooding parts of the ship.  tables moving all over the place and creating a PR nightmare for all cruise lines.  I am sure that cruise line sales were down for several months afterwards.  When he could have waited several hours and had a successful cruise without incidents.  Perhaps he is the reason cruise ships try to navigate around the storms somewhat.  Right at the start of the cruise he muffed it up and the cruise had to go back for repairs.  Would you want the captain that screwed up the last cruise on your cruise?  You had a difficult time believing that Royal removed him and put in another captain.  Bad PR to have him sail on the ship?  Yes definitely.

 

For the Edge case they did not even make the national news,  though they are not sailing into that area right now.

Edited May 6 by NMTraveller

[Biker19]

7 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

You had a difficult time believing that Royal removed him and put in another captain.  Bad PR to have him sail on the ship?  Yes definitely.

Captain Ban is still at the helm of Q class ships and no, sales didn't go down on Athem or other ships after that incident (106.4% occupancy in 2016, the year of the incident and 108.4% in 2017). Folks have short memories, despite the media hype.

[NMTraveller]

Del

Edited May 6 by NMTraveller

[Biker19]

1 minute ago, NMTraveller said:

It was before then ...  It was not on Anthem.

You might want to enlighten the chief and others which ship/when you are talking about.

[NMTraveller]

29 minutes ago, Biker19 said:

Captain Ban is still at the helm of Q class ships and no, sales didn't go down on Athem or other ships after that incident (106.4% occupancy in 2016, the year of the incident and 108.4% in 2017). Folks have short memories, despite the media hype.

He was not the captain on the preceding cruise...  That was my point.  People find this difficult to believe.  We were on that one.  People do have a short memory. 

 

It has been a while since I sailed Royal.  I had to go back and look it up.

Edited May 6 by NMTraveller

[NMTraveller]

15 minutes ago, Biker19 said:

You might want to enlighten the chief and others which ship/when you are talking about.

It was the 2016 Anthem.  I went back and looked at past cruises.

[Biker19]

16 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

He was not the captain on the preceding cruise

Right, Captain Ban was the alternate Captain, my mistake. I believe Claus Andreson was the captain and he moved on to other ships after the incident.

 

One of several threads from the time:

 

[chengkp75]

51 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

Chief- one thing that was suggested by another chief engineer on the tube of u's was that there was a fuel system problem.  Which is one system that isn't all that redundant- it's one source that if it goes out, then all of the generators go out.  Is that accurate to your knowledge?

 

I found that curious, where you have all these redundant systems that are fed by a system where a single point failure can take out all of the redundancy.  

 

Not trying to speculate, but that suggestion was just, well, curious given that a failure could shut it all down.

That depends on what you call a "fuel system problem".  Each separate engine room has a separate low pressure fuel system, and each engine has a separate high pressure fuel system.  So, mechanical failure in the "fuel system" does not mean that all engines will fail.  You would have to have multiple mechanical failures.

 

One problem I've heard questions about is fuel quality.  Ships still use residual bunker fuel for the propulsion engine, but many use diesel fuel for the generators.  But, even those that use residual in the generator engines, just about all will draw fuel for their various fuel systems from one tank, the "day tank" (so named because it will hold about 36 hours of fuel for all uses (propulsion and generation), and is filled daily from the storage tanks.  

 

Fuel from various locations around the world are not always "compatible" (meaning when you mix them together, bad things happen), and incompatible fuels can form long chain hydrocarbons that will clog fuel filters, stopping fuel flow to the engines.  For this reason, fuel is typically loaded to empty storage tanks only (so no mixing there), and is sampled and the sample sent to a lab for analysis.  Industry standard is to not use the newly bunkered fuel until the lab results come back, and the ship makes the determination of whether the new fuel and the old fuel are compatible.

 

Residual fuel, and all fuel that has come via pipelines is dirty (rust flakes, sand, etc) so when fuel is needed from the storage tanks, it is transferred to the "settling tank", so named because it gives the contaminants time to settle out before going to the "day tank".  When transferred from the settling tank to the day tank, it is filtered by sending it through a centrifuge (solids get flung to the outside and are discharged, fuel stays on the inside and is pumped to the day tank.  Some fuels are "unstable", meaning that the "heavy phase" (bunker oil), and the "light phase" (the diesel fuel used to "cut" the bunker to the proper viscosity) are not really compatible, but only react when subjected to the high speeds/forces in the centrifuges.  This can cause long wax strings to form in the fuel, also clogging fuel filters.

 

So, incompatible fuels, and unstable fuels are a known problem in the maritime world (refineries will send you anything they can, just to get rid of it), so the use of sampling and testing, and fuel segregation measures will mediate the problem, but there is always the possibility of having it happen.  I had it happen on a few ships.  And, if this was the case on the Dali, it is very likely that the fuel taken on in Baltimore was not the cause, but the fuel taken on the previous time, which was just starting to be used while at the dock in Baltimore.

Again, it is the swiss cheese model of accident causation.  There are several slices of cheese (fuel testing, fuel segregation, fuel additives), that are mediation techniques, and each of them likely has a "hole" in the slice causing that method to fail (like mixing fuel in a tank), but if that hole lines up with solid cheese on the "fuel testing" slice, then there is no problem.  It is only when all the "holes" (potential failure modes) line up together, that the failure has a way to get to the end, the casualty.

 

Sorry for the long winded explanation.

[chengkp75]

34 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

It was the 2016 Anthem.  I went back and looked at past cruises.

Looking at some of the RCI "who's the Captain" threads, it seems he was Captain of Allure in 2020.

[alfaeric]

52 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

 

Sorry for the long winded explanation.

 

Thanks.  Makes more sense now.  And the long explanation was very helpful.

[chengkp75]

39 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

 

Thanks.  Makes more sense now.  And the long explanation was very helpful.

Fuel quality issues are a large, and growing problem in the industry, but over the last 20 years or so, we've come up with ways to minimize the risk, but nothing in life is without risk.

[robmtx]

3 hours ago, Biker19 said:

Right, Captain Ban was the alternate Captain, my mistake. I believe Claus Andreson was the captain and he moved on to other ships after the incident.

 

I was on said cruise. The Captain (Andersen) was reassigned to 2nd in command (forgot what that title is) of Ovation for the Summer 2016 season in Asia before resuming his Captain duties after the dust had settled. Not sure what happened to him later on. 

[Biker19]

21 minutes ago, robmtx said:

Not sure what happened to him later on. 

He was on Oasis till the start of COVID, then Allure and finished his career with RCI on Jewel in early 2022.

[chengkp75]

32 minutes ago, robmtx said:

(forgot what that title is

Staff Captain, who has to be a licensed Master, the same as the Captain.

[alfaeric]

Just saw the news that there will be a controlled demolition to take apart and "remove" the rest of the bridge from the Dali.  Maybe tomorrow, as they project floating the Dali Friday.  

 

Once that is done, then they can get a lot of gear in there to finish the clean up.  Keeps looking that they are very much on schedule to open the channel fully back up at the end of the month.

[BND]

Last worker's body was found.  

As for the controlled explosion, the Dali's crew will shelter in place as the goal is just to break up the piece of the bridge that is sitting on it.  

[shipgeeks]

In case anyone is interested in watching, the explosion to separate the ship from the bridge, is planned for between 4-7pm today (Sunday), probably 4:30 or so.

[smokeybandit]

3 hours ago, shipgeeks said:

In case anyone is interested in watching, the explosion to separate the ship from the bridge, is planned for between 4-7pm today (Sunday), probably 4:30 or so.

Looks like 5pm is the target.

[mo&fran]

1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

Looks like 5pm is the target.

Sounds like it is now postponed till tomorrow.

[smokeybandit]

7 minutes ago, mo&fran said:

Sounds like it is now postponed till tomorrow.

Yes, apparently 7pm ET to match up with low tide.

[shipgeeks]

Thanks for the updates.

[smokeybandit]

They blew the rest of the bridge today. Apparently everything went according to plan and they hope to be in position to free Dali in the next couple days.

[chengkp75]

38 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

They blew the rest of the bridge today. Apparently everything went according to plan and they hope to be in position to free Dali in the next couple days.

Yeah, still a big slab of pavement on the bow, and even with removing the weight of the truss, the bow didn't rise any significant amount, so she is likely well and truly stuck in the bottom, and they may have to dredge around her to free her.

[exm]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Yeah, still a big slab of pavement on the bow, and even with removing the weight of the truss, the bow didn't rise any significant amount, so she is likely well and truly stuck in the bottom, and they may have to dredge around her to free her.

 

Full removal of the ship and structure could take an additional two days according to officials.