Banned!

[www3traveler]

I would suspect that the list is shared just not reported as shared.  Each cruise company is required by the 2010 Cruise Vessel Safety and Security Act to report incidents like unruly passengers to the US Department of Transportation AND the US Coast Guard.  You can go to the US Department of Transportation to find the latest reports.  

[chengkp75]

36 minutes ago, www3traveler said:

I would suspect that the list is shared just not reported as shared.  Each cruise company is required by the 2010 Cruise Vessel Safety and Security Act to report incidents like unruly passengers to the US Department of Transportation AND the US Coast Guard.  You can go to the US Department of Transportation to find the latest reports.  

The list of incidents (and I'm not sure if the names of the parties involved are reported) is reported to the FBI, not DOT or USCG.  USDOT maintains the list of the number of reported incidents, and that does not include "unruly passengers", it is limited to "serious crimes".  However, even if the names of parties were reported to the FBI, they would not then report these names to DOT, or other cruise lines.  Besides, nowhere on the DOT report does it mention "punishment", and specifically says it does not take into account the "investigative status of the incident", so a banning would not be reported, nor would the FBI care a whit whether a passenger was banned from a cruise line or not.

[www3traveler]

On the opening page of the 2010 Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act ( the blue book found in all cabins) it says:

  "Norwegian Cruise Line has zero tolerance for crime on board its vessels.  On international voyages that embark or disembark in the United States, Norwegian Cruise Line is required by federal law to report on board felonies and missing US nationals to federal agencies.  For a missing U.S. national and all serious felonies (homicide, suspicious death, kidnaping, assault with serious bodily injury, sexual assaults as defined by federal laws, firing or tampering with the vessel, or the theft of money or property in excess of $10,000) the incident must be reported to the F.B.I. by telephone as soon as possible and to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.  For Pride of America only, the incident must be reported to the U.S. Department of Transportation's Response Center Hotline, and to the U.S. Coat Guard in writing (these requirements apply to incidents that occur on board Pride of America at any time during the voyage).  For all other NCL vessels, these requirements pertain to incidents occurring in U.S. territorial waters, or on the high seas or in foreign waters if the assailant or victim in a U.S. National."

[www3traveler]

Since writing the above entry, I went to the U.S. Department of Transportation's website.

At the very top of the left side of the page under "Related Links", the VERY FIRST listing is: "Cruiseline Incident Reports".

[Distinctive-Destinations]

Somewhat related: are registered sex offenders allowed on board?

 

Seems that would violate some distance regulation, etc with kids on board???

[Two Wheels Only]

Although it didn't get as many clicks, there was also a video of a recent fight on Royal Caribbean. 

[ngrund]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Why would Carnival care if a disruptive person booked a cruise on a competitor's ship?  Carnival likely shares this with the other lines in the Carnival group, but I think they would enjoy having an NCL cruise disrupted.

maybe, but as I once heard an exec with either Pepsi or Coke say in regards to sharing issues happening on their bottling lines, "we don't compete on safety".  

 

[EngrJones]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Why would Carnival care if a disruptive person booked a cruise on a competitor's ship?  Carnival likely shares this with the other lines in the Carnival group, but I think they would enjoy having an NCL cruise disrupted.

If they cruise lines shared back and forth, Carnival would very much benefit from sharing this info with NCL (with NCL sharing equivalent info in return).

[BeasleysMom66]

On 7/7/2024 at 11:33 AM, ldubs said:

 

Interesting. No one would voluntarily sign that.  I wonder how they make them sign.   

 

I live in Las Vegas and it happens here more than the public knows.  The way they get them to sign is basically a "plea" deal.  If they acknowledge the ban by signing and agreeing to it the casino (or in this case cruise line) agrees not to pursue criminal charges.  If they refuse to sign the casino(s) can still ban them and share the information with other brands and it is perfectly legal.

 

As an example:  Ben Affleck has been banned from playing blackjack at the Hard Rock because he was caught card counting.  He is allowed to play other games though.  I was on a black jack table recently with a guy in his 50s who seemed completely normal and about 20 minutes into play the pit boss came over and quietly reminded him he was banned from playing in any Stations Casino and was asked to leave.  They cancelled his current hands he was playing and he was polite and took his chips to the cage and left.  I have NO idea what he did to be banned but they upheld it. 

 

That isn't even the first time I have seen someone who has been banned kicked out either.  I know they share the information among all their properties for certain.  The casinos also share who owes them money among all properties in Clark County (if not NV) as well.  It isn't illegal to share factual information and they are not required to allow someone to enter their business if they believe their past behavior warrants restricting access.  The same holds true for a cruise line.  I am sure Carnival has a way to enter their name into the computer data base so that if they tried to book again they would be red flagged and denied.  As for sharing it with other lines I don't see the need.  While they behaved badly on Carnival it isn't a guarantee they will do it again and if they did learn their lesson then using another line to cruise should be an option.  I would suspect the behavior would have to be REALLY bad for names to be shared industry wide.

[Mum2Mercury]

On 7/7/2024 at 5:16 AM, babs135 said:

And if not, why not?  Are the cruise lines not allowed to do this? And again, if not, should the law be changed?

I'm with you.  People who fist fight in small places should be banned from all future cruises.

On 7/7/2024 at 2:45 PM, K32682 said:

Unless there was a return commitment not to press criminal charges or pursue civil remedies there's nothing they could do if you refused to sign. 

I'd think it's a matter of, "Sign this, and we won't take you to court."  

On 7/7/2024 at 6:38 PM, chengkp75 said:

2.  Why would any cruise line care one fig whether a troublemaker got on a competitor's ship or not?

People who fought on Cruise Line A are likely to fight on Cruise Line B.  

22 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

Or a fine. A lot of people don’t read what they sign. 

And a lot of people don't understand what they read.  

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, www3traveler said:

For Pride of America only, the incident must be reported to the U.S. Department of Transportation's Response Center Hotline, and to the U.S. Coat Guard in writing (these requirements apply to incidents that occur on board Pride of America at any time during the voyage).

Yes, the POA has different reporting requirements since it is US flag, and the Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act does not apply to the POA.

 

1 hour ago, www3traveler said:

Since writing the above entry, I went to the U.S. Department of Transportation's website.

At the very top of the left side of the page under "Related Links", the VERY FIRST listing is: "Cruiseline Incident Reports".

And as I said, it only lists raw numbers of incidents, not the details of those incidents, as the numbers are the only data that the FBI supplies to DOT.  You will also notice that it only lists a few very serious crimes that need to be reported, and I don't believe that a bar fight falls under any of those categories, unless one or more participants required hospitalization.

 

1 hour ago, Distinctive-Destinations said:

Somewhat related: are registered sex offenders allowed on board?

 

Seems that would violate some distance regulation, etc with kids on board???

What distance regulation between sex offenders and kids does the Bahamas have, since that would be the jurisdiction that applies.

 

25 minutes ago, EngrJones said:

If they cruise lines shared back and forth, Carnival would very much benefit from sharing this info with NCL (with NCL sharing equivalent info in return).

You are giving them a lot of credit.

 

13 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

People who fought on Cruise Line A are likely to fight on Cruise Line B.

Cruise line B might appreciate that information, but what benefit would it be to cruise line A to share that info with B?  As with the above quote, you are assuming that the cruise lines willingly share information between themselves.  I don't believe it.

[EngrJones]

37 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

You are giving them a lot of credit.

Not really.  It's just good business.  I believe that insurance companies do the same type of reciprocal sharing.  Besides, it's in the best interest of all cruise companies if the trouble makers are prevented from cruising.  The highly publicized brawls hurt the entire industry.

[BeasleysMom66]

44 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

What distance regulation between sex offenders and kids does the Bahamas have, since that would be the jurisdiction that applies.

 

The distancing requirement it would violate would be in the terms of their release if on parole and/or the requirements of the sex offender registry.  I haven't read the terms or even seen them but would think that they state the requirement to remain a specified distance from minors would every where they go and apply on a cruise ship.  The enforcement for violation would be up to the overseeing agency and the courts as to whether going on a cruise with minors violated their terms of release.  There are plenty of lines that don't cater to families and Virgin doesn't allow minors at all.  There are options for a registered sex offender to cruise in compliance of distancing if they are allowed to travel without violating.

[chengkp75]

17 minutes ago, BeasleysMom66 said:

The distancing requirement it would violate would be in the terms of their release if on parole and/or the requirements of the sex offender registry.

So, you're saying that if a registered sex offender goes to a foreign country, then the terms of their parole would apply?  I don't think that would be the case.  It is outside the jurisdiction of the paroling court.   US law does not carry over everywhere on Earth.

[Mum2Mercury]

1 hour ago, BeasleysMom66 said:

That isn't even the first time I have seen someone who has been banned kicked out either.  

I personally have only seen one family kicked off the ship -- their teens were throwing deck chairs overboard, and the whole family was put off at the next island.  The captain made an announcement about WHY they were leaving our ranks.  

 

I don't think I was alone in having a heart-to-heart with my own children that day.  

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Cruise line B might appreciate that information, but what benefit would it be to cruise line A to share that info with B?  As with the above quote, you are assuming that the cruise lines willingly share information between themselves.  I don't believe it.

 

Eh, I'm a teacher.  We tend to be more cooperative than competitive.  Maybe that's why I think the cruise lines would want to help one another in this way.  

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, you're saying that if a registered sex offender goes to a foreign country, then the terms of their parole would apply?  I don't think that would be the case.  It is outside the jurisdiction of the paroling court.   US law does not carry over everywhere on Earth.

Sex offenders on board near children.  One of the many things I've never once considered.  

 

Edited July 9 by Mum2Mercury

[Charles4515]

57 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Sex offenders on board near children.  One of the many things I've never once considered.  

Manifests get sent to the port countries so some may check criminal databases. (I don’t know if they do) As I understand the US checks the data bases. Seems like checking sex offenders lists is something the cruise lines might be able to do. ( I don’t know if they do).

Edited July 9 by Charles4515

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, BeasleysMom66 said:

 

I live in Las Vegas and it happens here more than the public knows.  The way they get them to sign is basically a "plea" deal.  If they acknowledge the ban by signing and agreeing to it the casino (or in this case cruise line) agrees not to pursue criminal charges.  If they refuse to sign the casino(s) can still ban them and share the information with other brands and it is perfectly legal.

 

'

Of course a Las Vegas casino does not have the same jurisdictional issues as a ship in international waters.  I don't think you can draw that conclusion that an incident on the high seas would be the same.  They ship officers may in fact make the threat of criminal prosecution, but I suspect it is toothless.  But then, people dumb enough to get into a brawl are likely too dumb to understand that.   

[ldubs]

4 hours ago, EngrJones said:

If they cruise lines shared back and forth, Carnival would very much benefit from sharing this info with NCL (with NCL sharing equivalent info in return).

 

If sharing problem passengers were to become a duty of the cruise line, I think the potential negative legal issues might outweigh the benefits.  Just the basic what degree of unruliness is to be reported would be problematic. What if a cruise line deems some incident minor and that person goes on to assault someone on another cruise line.  Is the original cruise line negligent in failing in their duty to notify about a potential problem passenger.   It seems like a can of worms.  

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, Charles4515 said:

Manifests get sent to the port countries so some may check criminal databases. (I don’t know if they do) As I understand the US checks the data bases. Seems like checking sex offenders lists is something the cruise lines might be able to do. ( I don’t know if they do).

 

For whatever good it might do, I think there is an identifier in the passport of convicted sex offenders.  

[BeasleysMom66]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, you're saying that if a registered sex offender goes to a foreign country, then the terms of their parole would apply?  I don't think that would be the case.  It is outside the jurisdiction of the paroling court.   US law does not carry over everywhere on Earth.

 

I didn't say it would apply IN the country the RSO went to.  It would apply when/if they returned here AND there was an incident criminal or not that alerted their supervising agency that they were out of compliance.  Enforcement of the terms of their remaining "out' of jail is done here in the USA but requiring they not be in the company of minors is global.  Should they get caught violating the US can enforce consequences here for violating their terms of release even if it was in another country.  You don't actually believe that if someone is a registered sex offender and goes on a cruise and they post pics of the trip on social media including being at the pool with kids and their parole officer or the court sees them that they wouldn't face consequences because it was on a cruise ship at sea and not on US soil?

 

The ex-husband of a good friend was on probation for a DUI conviction.  No where near as serious as being a registered sex offender but one of his restrictions of his probation was he was not to travel outside of his county/state over night unless he got permission from his probation officer and/or the court.  He landed in serious trouble (one reason he is now an ex-husband) when they went on a cruise and his probation officer and family were on the same ship. He got busted for traveling in violation of his terms of release and had to do another 60 days in jail for it.  Violate as a sex offender and it is back to prison possibly for life.

 

28 minutes ago, ldubs said:

I don't think you can draw that conclusion that an incident on the high seas would be the same.

 

Of course you can.  Unruly passengers on international flights face consequences ALL the time.  They land finding cops waiting for them on the jet way.  Cruise ships are no different.  Whether the ship chooses to involve law endorcement is an entirely different issue but they can do so at the next port if at sea when the conduct happens.  Problem is most conduct is just drunk and stupid vs. out right crime.  People sign those banishment agreements all the time without even reading them.  It isn't even  close to illegal.  Cruise ships are private businesses and unless they deny boarding for a reason prohibited by law they can simply refuse to sell a ticket to anyone they choose and there is no recourse.  Sharing that individuals had to be debarked due to really bad behavior with other lines isn't slander or libel either.  The truth is always a defense.  It doesn't really matter because those who cause that much trouble in the drunk and disorderly category usually remain convinced they were right and never want to cruise again anyway.  

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

 

Sex offenders on board near children.  One of the many things I've never once considered.  

 

 

Same here.  I think one of the problems might be the sexual offender registry lumps sexual predators in with other lessor offenses.   The registry should be for sexual predators, which I think might have been the original intent.    

[1025cruise]

I believe all cruise lines check their manifests against the published registry lists for sex offenders, and cancel cruises for anyone on them.

[ldubs]

20 minutes ago, BeasleysMom66 said:

 

Of course you can.  Unruly passengers on international flights face consequences ALL the time.  They land finding cops waiting for them on the jet way.  Cruise ships are no different.  Whether the ship chooses to involve law endorcement is an entirely different issue but they can do so at the next port if at sea when the conduct happens.  Problem is most conduct is just drunk and stupid vs. out right crime.  People sign those banishment agreements all the time without even reading them.  It isn't even  close to illegal.  Cruise ships are private businesses and unless they deny boarding for a reason prohibited by law they can simply refuse to sell a ticket to anyone they choose and there is no recourse.  Sharing that individuals had to be debarked due to really bad behavior with other lines isn't slander or libel either.  The truth is always a defense.  It doesn't really matter because those who cause that much trouble in the drunk and disorderly category usually remain convinced they were right and never want to cruise again anyway.  

 

 

Interesting comparison with international flights, and I agree that does happen.   I just read about the concept of "enemies of all mankind".  If that were to apply,  then I suppose any court could take jurisdictions.   Though I think we agree that isn't going to happen to these brawlers.

BTW, I have not said banning someone or trying to get them to sign a ban acknowledgment is illegal.  What I can't wrap my head around is this criminal prosecution many seem to think will happen. 

Edited July 10 by ldubs

[ldubs]

5 hours ago, BeasleysMom66 said:

 

I live in Las Vegas and it happens here more than the public knows.  The way they get them to sign is basically a "plea" deal.  If they acknowledge the ban by signing and agreeing to it the casino (or in this case cruise line) agrees not to pursue criminal charges.  If they refuse to sign the casino(s) can still ban them and share the information with other brands and it is perfectly legal.

 

 

BTW, Counting cards is not a crime in Nevada or Las Vegas.  It is understandably against casino policy and folks can be banned as you say.  

[njhorseman]

3 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

Manifests get sent to the port countries so some may check criminal databases. (I don’t know if they do) As I understand the US checks the data bases. Seems like checking sex offenders lists is something the cruise lines might be able to do. ( I don’t know if they do).

Canada is the only foreign country with unlimited access to the US DOJ's NCIC database. All other countries have to request access to specific records. As a result from a practical perspective foreign countries other than Canada can't search US criminal records for information on cruise ship passengers. They wouldn't know which names to check and wouldn't have enough time between receipt of the manifest and the ship's arrival to do any meaningful checking.

However there is an open and accessible US sex offender database, the Dru Sjodin National Sex Offender Public Website at nsopw.gov, which complies registered sex offender public information from all jurisdictions in the US...the 50 states, DC, US territories and Native American tribes. Any person, business or country has access to this data. I believe at least some cruise lines check their passenger manifests against this site.