Holland America Lines Disasterdam

[DisCruiser2012]

Its interesting that HAL has a different story. According to a story running one Chris Elliott's website, http://www.elliott.org/can-this-trip-be-saved-2/when-holland-america-says-no-problem-maybe-theres-a-problem/#more-27698 , the letter that the OP provided Chris states that they recommended that he obtain a passport prior to sailing. He of course denies that they did.

[peaches from georgia]

Companies always make arrangements for someone (usually a secretary or office mgr) to sign acting as an agent for a company's officer or staff for a letter or package delivered to a specific person. No person working for a company would be expected to sit at his desk every minute the company is open to sign for a letter. An agent's signature is accepted as proof of delivery to the designated addressee.

[sail7seas]

Companies always make arrangements for someone (usually a secretary or office mgr) to sign acting as an agent for a company's officer or staff for a letter or package delivered to a specific person. No person working for a company would be expected to sit at his desk every minute the company is open to sign for a letter. An agent's signature is accepted as proof of delivery to the designated addressee.

 

 

That was my point in my 'mail room' post above.

 

I was told mail could be directed to a specific signer..... yes, of course, it can. But you cannot force it to be accepted by that person.

 

Mail room/secretary/assistant etc will sign if the executive or whoever is unavailable. ;)

I have no idea the law as to 'considered received'.

 

Edited March 5, 2013 by sail7seas

[dwjoe]

Its interesting that HAL has a different story. According to a story running one Chris Elliott's website, http://www.elliott.org/can-this-trip-be-saved-2/when-holland-america-says-no-problem-maybe-theres-a-problem/#more-27698 , the letter that the OP provided Chris states that they recommended that he obtain a passport prior to sailing. He of course denies that they did.

Thanks for the link.

 

Here's what the site says HAL's response was:

 

We empathize with everyone who faces denial of entry onto our ships and share in their disappointment. However, information regarding visas, passports, and immunization requirements is the responsibility of each and every passenger. Guests and their agents must familiarize themselves with current requirements in advance of boarding any cruise entering foreign ports of call.

 

Upon our review with both ship and port officials, it was discovered that Mr. Purkey had already been in dialogue with us and advised that his documentation was not sufficient.

 

He was directly told he would need to get a passport (Polar booking notation made on December 3, 2012). Further review was made with port officials regarding their dialogue with this guest. They responded that the guest was instructed to contact our Guest Relations office for review and possible compensation allowance under their unfortunate circumstance of being denied boarding.

 

I suspect OP contacted HAL several times and received conflicting information about documentation requirements. Which illustrates that you can't rely on documentation requirements provided by cruise line reps. Can HAL be held accountable for the chat transcript? I don't know.

[Cruzin Terri]

Thanks for the link.

 

Here's what the site says HAL's response was:

 

We empathize with everyone who faces denial of entry onto our ships and share in their disappointment. However, information regarding visas, passports, and immunization requirements is the responsibility of each and every passenger. Guests and their agents must familiarize themselves with current requirements in advance of boarding any cruise entering foreign ports of call.

 

Upon our review with both ship and port officials, it was discovered that Mr. Purkey had already been in dialogue with us and advised that his documentation was not sufficient.

 

He was directly told he would need to get a passport (Polar booking notation made on December 3, 2012). Further review was made with port officials regarding their dialogue with this guest. They responded that the guest was instructed to contact our Guest Relations office for review and possible compensation allowance under their unfortunate circumstance of being denied boarding.

 

I suspect OP contacted HAL several times and received conflicting information about documentation requirements. Which illustrates that you can't rely on documentation requirements provided by cruise line reps. Can HAL be held accountable for the chat transcript? I don't know.

 

I believe that Dec. 3 was the date of his cruise and he was told this at the port. Hal has no written documentation of what was told to him and cannot provide any. Chris Elliott says this on his website. So basically OP is the only one with written documentation of what was said to him.

I think HAL is defenseless in this situation. To tell someone to get a passport when they are at the pier is poor form, especially when a passport was not needed for a closed loop cruise.

Terri

[skmcpher]

"To tell someone to get a passport when they are at the pier is poor form, especially when a passport was not needed for a closed loop cruise."

 

I see a minor problem with this statement. True, a passport is not an absolute requirement for a closed loop cruise, but that is provided that the passenger can provide adequate alternative documentation, like a birth certificate and driver's license. If one does not have those two pieces of identification, or the alternatives described by the State Department, then he would need a passport.

 

In general the problem that I have with this situation is that there are two conflicting stories: the passenger states that HAL told him that his birth certificate would be sufficient; and HAL states that the passenger was advised that he would need a passport. I do not know if the notes on the passenger's booking within POLAR are good enough proof that the passenger was advised of the need for a passport; however, the only way those notes could have gotten there is if a HAL rep put them in. Why would a HAL representative note the booking that way but then advise the passenger differently? That doesn't make sense. Is it possible that the passenger misunderstood the HAL rep's statements and believe that his documentation would be okay when it wasn't? I haven't read through all 18 pages of replies to this thread and was unable to read the JPEG of the transcript from the OP, so don't fault me if this has been explored already.

 

I was referred to this discussion from Christopher Elliott's article, in which he references the chat transcript:

 

He sent me the chat transcript.

 

Here’s an excerpt:

 

Purkey: I have the original birth certificate. Will this be OK?

 

HAL: YES, that is totally fine.

 

 

So, what I am wondering is what exactly the HAL rep understood by the term "original birth certificate". Was there further conversation describing the special circumstances regarding the OP's birth certificate? If not, then the HAL rep probably understood the passenger to mean that he held his original birth certificate from a birth in the United States.

 

Is the HAL rep who chatted with the passenger the same rep that noted the booking in POLAR?

 

All of HAL's documentation states that citizenship/VISA requirements are the responsibility of the passenger, so I think that at least 50% of the responsibility should be to the OP here. However, I think there might be some culpability on the part of HAL if it can be shown in writing that the passenger explained the circumstances of his birth certificate and then was told by a HAL rep that that documentation would be acceptable for boarding. If that is the case, then I think that HAL should give the passenger a 50% refund.

 

Just my $.02.

[mor mor]

No. Got here on a U.S. Army Hospital ship. My mother says, since my father was in the Army, and they were married, their 8 month old baby didn't have to have a passport. My parent's passports were sufficient.

Just had to weigh in here. Born in China as a Navy junior I had a passport when I was too small to hold my own head up - so someone's finger is under my chin in the photo. I needed it to enter USA.

 

My birth certificate is just a consulate report. With both, I renewed my passport as an adult.

[ejammer]

I haven't read through all 18 pages of replies to this thread and was unable to read the JPEG of the transcript from the OP, so don't fault me if this has been explored already.

 

I was referred to this discussion from Christopher Elliott's article, in which he references the chat transcript:

 

He sent me the chat transcript.

 

Here’s an excerpt:

 

Purkey: I have the original birth certificate. Will this be OK?

 

HAL: YES, that is totally fine.

 

 

So, what I am wondering is what exactly the HAL rep understood by the term "original birth certificate". Was there further conversation describing the special circumstances regarding the OP's birth certificate? If not, then the HAL rep probably understood the passenger to mean that he held his original birth certificate from a birth in the United States.

 

Is the HAL rep who chatted with the passenger the same rep that noted the booking in POLAR?

.

 

One of the more readable versions of the complete transcript can be found on page 10, post #183 of this thread: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=37171785#post37171785

 

I think it will answer most of your questions. Not sure why Chris only posted that brief part in his story. Perhaps, to elicit responses. If so, it worked well.

 

P.S. What the hecks a POLAR, and what's that got to do with it anywho? I've never been to the North Pole either! Does Santa need a passport too?! Or is he covered in the closed loop loophole? Don't dare ask Dana!!:rolleyes:

[dwjoe]

Reading the chat transcript again, I think there is some wiggle room to interpret it either way. OP says he was born in a US army hospital in Germany to one US citizen parent and he has the original birth certificate (emphasis added). That could be read as OP having a Consular Report of Birth Abroad, b/c it should be obvious that a German document cannot confer US citizenship, so OP can't be referring to a German birth certificate, or so HAL may argue.

Edited March 6, 2013 by dwjoe

[JLC@SD]

I think HAL is defenseless in this situation.

Terri

HAL has a defense .....it published the requirements on it's website. Writen notification takes precedence over a chat. Especially a chat in which the birth certificate was not described as "German issued writen in German" .......it was only described as an "original" birth certificate.

[epixx]

ejammer --

 

Did you ever contact HAL at any other time, besides the referenced online chat, to discuss required documentation for your cruise, as intimated in the blog?

[ejammer]

ejammer --

 

Did you ever contact HAL at any other time, besides the referenced online chat, to discuss required documentation for your cruise, as intimated in the blog?

 

Yes. A few days after the chat convo, when I was having a problem figuring out the online early registration, I called the HAL documentation department. They asked me to email the question to them. We exchanged a few emails. The final one they sent me included a list of detailed questions concerning my birth history. I replied back to them with the answers. I also called my travel agent to inform her of this.

 

A day or so later my travel agent called to inform me she had been in contact with the docs folks and everything was taken care of, and that my German birth certificate and Tennessee drivers license would be acceptable. She also recommended I take a translated copy of my BC, and any other documentation that might help establish my residence to perhaps help speed up the process at the port. She then mailed us our boarding passes a couple days later. I never heard anything else to the contrary from HAL until we got to the pier.

[bishop84]

P.S. What the hecks a POLAR, and what's that got to do with it anywho? I've never been to the North Pole either! Does Santa need a passport too?! Or is he covered in the closed loop loophole? Don't dare ask Dana!!:rolleyes:

 

POLAR is the computer reservation system used by HAL. I understand that if you contact them concerning anything then it should be noted in that system so if you called again then the reservations personnel would see your previous enquiry and information given.

[lvz2cruz]

I think it is very sad in our country that people employed in customer service are not adequately trained to competently answer questions and the company takes no responsibility for the problems created.

In the chat the girl does not say I "think" this is fine or "maybe" this will work. She says it is acceptable and checks with supervisor who says it is good. HAL should be accountable for the people on their payroll who are their customer service REPRESENTATIVES.

[vbmom87]

I think it is very sad in our country that people employed in customer service are not adequately trained to competently answer questions and the company takes no responsibility for the problems created.

In the chat the girl does not say I "think" this is fine or "maybe" this will work. She says it is acceptable and checks with supervisor who says it is good. HAL should be accountable for the people on their payroll who are their customer service REPRESENTATIVES.

 

Agree!!!

[dwjoe]

Yes. A few days after the chat convo, when I was having a problem figuring out the online early registration, I called the HAL documentation department. They asked me to email the question to them. We exchanged a few emails. The final one they sent me included a list of detailed questions concerning my birth history. I replied back to them with the answers. I also called my travel agent to inform her of this.

 

A day or so later my travel agent called to inform me she had been in contact with the docs folks and everything was taken care of, and that my German birth certificate and Tennessee drivers license would be acceptable. She also recommended I take a translated copy of my BC, and any other documentation that might help establish my residence to perhaps help speed up the process at the port. She then mailed us our boarding passes a couple days later. I never heard anything else to the contrary from HAL until we got to the pier.

If you explicitly told HAL's documentation department in writing that you had a German birth certificate and they acknowledged receipt of that info, and your travel agent will go on the record that HAL said it was OK, then you have a strong case.

[cherylandtk]

There seems to be a lot of discussion here as to whether the OP used the term "German Birth Certificate" or not. I just want to repeat that he clearly stated he was born in Landstuhl, Germany and thus he did not have to state anything further about his birth certificate, or the language it was written in or who or what issued it. By being born in Germany, he does not have a US birth certificate. PERIOD.

 

A US Consular Report of Birth Abroad is not a birth certificate, either. It IS proof of US citizenship, however and thus is a vital record document. But it is not a birth certificate.

 

Any travel agent or cruiseline CSR (or anyone working in such a capacity) should be aware of those differences as part of their basic job skill requirements. The DHS has gone to great lengths to notify and educate travel professionals about the differences in documentation since the implementation of the WHTI.

[pms4104]

...my travel agent called to inform me she had been in contact with the docs folks and everything was taken care of, and that my German birth certificate and Tennessee drivers license would be acceptable. She also recommended I take a translated copy of my BC, and any other documentation that might help establish my residence to perhaps help speed up the process at the port. She then mailed us our boarding passes a couple days later. I never heard anything else to the contrary from HAL until we got to the pier.

You need a new travel agent ... this person doesn't know what she's doing. 'Tis a shame she does not know what official docs are required for travel and, worse, that she gives client bad advice ... when the correct info is available on the Gov't website. And, a reputable travel agent would know how to research such info.

[skmcpher]

This is very difficult to determine exactly who is at fault and at what percentage but I would reiterate from my previous post that I think both you and HAL have some culpability here. It is your responsibility to know what documentation was required for re-entry into the U.S. after a closed loop cruise, and this information could have easily been obtained by visiting the US Department of State's website.

 

From http://www.getyouhome.gov: "Closed Loop" Cruises: U.S. citizens who board a cruise ship at a port within the United States, travel only within the Western Hemisphere, and return to the same U.S. port on the same ship may present a government issued photo identification, along with proof of citizenship (an original or copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular report of Birth Abroad, or a Certificate of Naturalization). Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the foreign countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents.

 

It is clear from the above passage that your original German birth certificate would not have been proof of citizenship; you would have needed a Consular report of Birth Abroad. I am not sure how you could have gotten along all these years here in the U.S. without having one, but it is obvious from reading above that your German birth certificate wouldn't cut it to prove U.S. citizenship. Since this information is readily available and it is your responsibility to check, you unfortunately have some culpability here.

 

However, that may not be the end of discussion. You did note to the HAL rep during your chat that you were born in Germany and had that birth certificate. However, neither the HAL rep nor the Supervisor asked if you had any proof of your U.S. citizenship, like a U.S. Consular report of Birth Abroad. And this is wherein the problem lies. What probably should have happened in this case is that the HAL rep and Supervisor should have referred you to the U.S. Department of State. This way you are assured that you get the proper information because it comes from the authorites on the matter. The HAL reps may not be thoroughly trained in all areas of proper documentation and questions of citizenship, so they probably should not offer up any information other than to tell you to check with the proper authorities.

 

But since the HAL supervisor took it upon himself to advise you instead of referring you to the State Department, then I think HAL should stand behind what the Supervisor told you, at least to some extent. Additionally, the HAL rep noted in POLAR that you were advised to obtain a passport, but that rep failed to note what the Supervisor told you, and I think that should have been done.

 

Furthermore, your travel agent should have known better than to rely on the information from HAL. I believe your travel agent should have told you to check with the State Department because they are the ones that made up the rules and determine how they are followed.

 

I think for the sake of customer service, HAL should compensate you for at least 50% of your cruise fare because its agent probably never should have told you anything more than to check with the State Department. Since you also could have easily done this yourself and it is ultimately your responsibility to do so, I still believe that you have some responsibility here.

 

When you appeal to HAL, I would point out the fact that its agent gave you incorrect information without getting all the facts first, and since that agent chose to do so instead of referring you to the proper authorities, then HAL should stand behind that agent's statements, at least to some extent.

 

Good luck.

[ejammer]

Since everyone loves a happy ending, thought I should share an update. Everything worked out terrifically! My wife and I are flying out of Knoxville tomorrow headed for our 2nd attempt on the exact same ship and destinations we were headed for last winter. Amazing, I know. Will post more later, AFTER, we actually accomplish our much anticipated adventure. :)

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=40683237&postcount=151

Edited November 16, 2013 by ejammer

[celle]

Great! Thanks for the update. Have a wonderful cruise!

[Cruzin Terri]

Since everyone loves a happy ending, thought I should share an update. Everything worked out terrifically! My wife and I are flying out of Knoxville tomorrow headed for our 2nd attempt on the exact same ship and destinations we were headed for last winter. Amazing, I know. Will post more later, AFTER, we actually accomplish our much anticipated adventure. :)

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=40683237&postcount=151

Elmer,

I am so happy for you. I am so glad it all worked out for you.

Terri

[erewhon]

Since everyone loves a happy ending, thought I should share an update. Everything worked out terrifically! My wife and I are flying out of Knoxville tomorrow headed for our 2nd attempt on the exact same ship and destinations we were headed for last winter. Amazing, I know. Will post more later, AFTER, we actually accomplish our much anticipated adventure. :)

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=40683237&postcount=151

 

Good news.

Thanks for the update.

Wishing you both a fabulous cruise.

[woodworker&knitter]

Have a great time

[Mtn2Sea]

Fantastic! Hope you have a great cruise.