Holland America Lines Disasterdam

[catl331]

I could not read the copy of the conversation the OP posted. I wonder if both parties verified, as the conversation proceeded, that each fully understood the other.

Click HERE ,open it, and zoom in. He made it very clear what the situation was. It was the HAL people who brought up the fact that he would not need a passport. I think he got the correct answer there and the wrong one at the pier, and HAL owes him a full refund plus $1200 airfare. Or a new cruise including airfare, plus some OBC for his troubles.

 

Bottom line ......what is the "birth certificate" document.

 

Is it issued by a German hospital or by the German government.

US Army hospital at Landstuhl. Edited February 18, 2013 by catl331

[kazu]

Click HERE ,open it, and zoom in. He made it very clear what the situation was. It was the HAL people who brought up the fact that he would not need a passport. I think he got the correct answer there and the wrong one at the pier, and HAL owes him a full refund plus $1200 airfare. Or a new cruise including airfare, plus some OBC for his troubles.

 

 

Thanks for the link to the pdf - I was having a hard time opening so I could read it. I agree with you.

[geoherb]

I agree with everyone about having a passport, but the OP got wrong info from the HAL rep (Nikki) and her supervisor (Dana). I think HAL owes them a cruise.

[jtl513]

... but the OP got wrong info from the HAL rep (Nikki) and her supervisor (Dana).

IMO Nikki and Dana were right and the Captain (or whoever made the final decision) was wrong. ejammer had valid proof of US citizenship and a photo ID, and that's all the rules require.

 

What I wonder a bit is what ejammer's DW had for documentation? Was a b.c. and photo ID good enough for her but his was n.g. because it wasn't from a state or territory? No where do I find it stated what the requirements are for that b.c.

[Overtime4me2]

I promise, one way, or the other, good or bad, all of you here, and as many other eyes and ears as I can find, anywhere and everywhere, for as many months or years as possible, will know the outcome of this! :)

 

Thank you, as I am looking forward to hearing the outcome. I think in this case, HAL should allow you to take a future cruise at no cost, if you still want it. I would still get a passport, ASAP though. I hope you will take the cruise, as you will love it!! :)

[cherylandtk]

In the hopes of clearing up some of the misinformation from the past few pages, here are a few facts:

 

1. OP is a US citizen at birth.

2. His Birth Certificate was issued in Germany and is not proof of US citizenship. He is a US citizen born abroad.

3. The WHTI regulation (22 CFR § 53.2 (b) (2) ) which allows US citizens to travel on round-trip (closed loop) cruises specifies only three exception documents accepted for proof of US citizenship for this travel:

-A US government issued Birth Certificate showing birth in the US. (State, County or City issued, not hospital issued)

-A US State Dept. Consular Report of Birth Abroad

-A US State Dept. Certificate of Naturalization

4. The HAL representatives were woefully incorrect in advising the OP that his foreign-issued BC was acceptable.

5. The HAL contract covers them for this error by specifically stating it is the passenger's responsibility to determine if they have the correct documents to board and exempts HAL from advising passengers of the correct documentation.

 

Now to my personal opinion: OP loses nothing by appealing calmly to HAL and asking for their mercy. They should feel guilty enough about the incorrectly advised information that they allow OP to take a replacement cruise. But they are not contractually obligated to do so, and the more meek and respectful the request, the likelier that it will be seen in a positive, win-win light. I would also add that the fewer locations on the web where this situation is reported the likelier it is that both parties will reach a satisfactory resolution. There is a reason that many settlements include a non-disclosure agreement.

Edited February 18, 2013 by cherylandtk

[Mary Ellen]

cherylandtk - Thank you for the clear, concise, and informative post. I hope the OP follows your suggestions and takes whatever steps necessary (gets a passport) to prevent this from reoccurring should they ever decide to travel out of the US again.

[ejammer]

IMO Nikki and Dana were right and the Captain (or whoever made the final decision) was wrong. ejammer had valid proof of US citizenship and a photo ID, and that's all the rules require.

 

What I wonder a bit is what ejammer's DW had for documentation? Was a b.c. and photo ID good enough for her but his was n.g. because it wasn't from a state or territory? No where do I find it stated what the requirements are for that b.c.

 

My wife has had a valid passport for a long time. She obtained it years ago in order to visit our son, who coincidentally, lives in Germany. She was very uncomfortably and offended as everyone (except me) at the port completely ignored her, leaving her feeling inconsequential as all this transpired.

Edited February 18, 2013 by ejammer

[sassyredhat]

No. Got here on a U.S. Army Hospital ship. My mother says, since my father was in the Army, and they were married, their 8 month old baby didn't have to have a passport. My parent's passports were sufficient.

 

Wow~~what alot of dialog. :eek:

Even though I am a detail maniac, I do feel some empathy for the OP. He is correct, at that time an infant traveled on this mothers' passport. Not now~~ I am in the process of helping a mama and her baby immigrate, and he has to have his own.

I do not claim to be anywhere near knowledgeable, but I thought the BC listed the parents citizenship on them. ???? That would be some proof.

For whatever reason, it is disappointing to be turned away at the ship.

It's too bad that alot people are not aware of CC, where I get so much of my info, alot of it from Ruth C, Sail, and some others. How can we fix that??? :confused:

Also, I always use a TA. It was my first TA who told me about getting a passport and travel insurance.

Lessons learned are always the harshest ones. :(

Pat

[ejammer]

4. The HAL representatives were woefully incorrect in advising the OP that his foreign-issued BC was acceptable.

5. The HAL contract covers them for this error by specifically stating it is the passenger's responsibility to determine if they have the correct documents to board and exempts HAL from advising passengers of the correct documentation.

 

Gosh, I figured I was being responsible in determining if I had the correct documents by contacting HAL and asking them?! Obviously, they did not "excempt" themselves from "advising" this passenger. In fact, as you can see, two of their representatives, including one supervisor, not only advised, but indeed, adamantly reassured this passenger that his documentation was correct.

 

I am confident that if any of the experienced seasoned cruisers on here had asked the same questions of the cruise line professionals on their very first cruise, and received the same response, that they too would have accepted the "expert" advice, and been in the same boat I was in...or not in...or denied being in...oh, you know what I mean.

Edited February 19, 2013 by ejammer

[gelo7]

Hope that all goes well for you next time.

[JLC@SD]

In the hopes of clearing up some of the misinformation from the past few pages, here are a few facts:

 

1. OP is a US citizen at birth.

2. His Birth Certificate was issued in Germany and is not proof of US citizenship. He is a US citizen born abroad.

3. The WHTI regulation (22 CFR § 53.2 (b) (2) ) which allows US citizens to travel on round-trip (closed loop) cruises specifies only three exception documents accepted for proof of US citizenship for this travel:

-A US government issued Birth Certificate showing birth in the US. (State, County or City issued, not hospital issued)

-A US State Dept. Consular Report of Birth Abroad

-A US State Dept. Certificate of Naturalization

 

IMO Nikki and Dana were right and the Captain (or whoever made the final decision) was wrong. ejammer had valid proof of US citizenship and a photo ID, and that's all the rules require.

The Captain was correct in rejecting the Birth Certificate. The Birth Certificate pictured in Post 121 is a German issued document and not one of the documents required ......which are listed by cherylandtk.

[JLC@SD]

No problem. When I checked the jpg it was already pretty large. I will try uploading it again here now. Also, as an additional backup, I made a screen shot copy of the convo, and saved that too (I'm overly cautious that way, and consequent have way too many saved files. My wife calls me a "file hoarder", but one never knows when you may need something. :)). So, I will attach that version in a pdf here now too in case it may be more readable.

 

Reading the pdf at Post 175, Nikki stated: That's correct, it is WHTI compliant.

 

Nikki said it should be WHTI compliant, but it looks like this was quickly passed by in the conversation.

 

and ......an important fact is missing.

 

Customer: I was born at a US Army hospital in Landsthul Germany. My father was in the Army. My mother is German. I have the original German Issued birth certificate which indicates this. Will this be ok?

 

To those bashing HAL, I think this indicates that HAL did not give out erroneous information, .........and that HAL did not provide bad customer service.

Edited February 19, 2013 by JLC@SD

[ejammer]

Reading the pdf at Post 175, Nikki stated: That's correct, it is WHTI compliant.

 

Nikki said it should be WHTI compliant, but it looks like this was quickly passed by in the conversation.

 

and ......an important fact is missing.

 

Customer: I was born at a US Army hospital in Landsthul Germany. My father was in the Army. My mother is German. I have the original German Issued birth certificate which indicates this. Will this be ok?

 

To those bashing HAL, I think this indicates that HAL did not give out erroneous information, .........and that HAL did not provide bad customer service.

 

IMO you are stating your misquoted opinions as fact here. Nikki never said "should be WHTI compliant", she said "is WHTI compliant".

 

And why would anyone (including Nikki and her experienced supervisor Dana) assume a person born in Germany would be issued a birth certificate from any other country other than Germany? Has anyone ever even heard of the U.S. military issuing their own birth certificates?

 

Another, not so obvious fact in that convo with Nikki, is that I was on hold for approximately 15 minutes as she responded with 3 "I'm still checking" type apologies, while she checked with her supervisor. IMO the fact is when I said to Nikki, "That sounds great! I just want to be sure. I'd hate to show up for my cruise, and not be able to go", and she replied with "I spoke with my supervisor Dana who is well familiar with this", she could have said, something like, "Well not really", or, "kinda, maybe, sorta", etc. But that is not what she said. Would anyone have questioned her further, or should I have believed these two expert representatives? Should I have said are you, and your "supervisor who is well familiar with this" really, really, really sure, or purdy please with sugar on top, could you also check with your supervisors supervisor, or your supervisors supervisors supervisor, or the CEO? Come on! Would anyone else have done that?...even an experienced traveler/cheerleader, much less a first timer like me?! :rolleyes:

Edited February 19, 2013 by ejammer

[richwmn]

IMO you are stating your misquoted opinions as fact here. Nikki never said "should be WHTI compliant", she said "is WHTI compliant".

 

And why would anyone (including Nikki and her experienced supervisor Dana) assume a person born in Germany would be issued a birth certificate from any other country other than Germany? Has anyone ever even heard of the U.S. military issuing their own birth certificates?

 

Another, not so obvious fact in that convo with Nikki, is that I was on hold for approximately 15 minutes as she responded with 3 "I'm still checking" type apologies, while she checked with her supervisor. IMO the fact is when I said to Nikki, "That sounds great! I just want to be sure. I'd hate to show up for my cruise, and not be able to go", and she replied with "I spoke with my supervisor Dana who is well familiar with this", she could have said, something like, "Well not really", or, "kinda, maybe, sorta", etc. But that is not what she said. Would anyone have questioned her further, or should I have believed these two expert representatives? Should I have said are you, and your "supervisor who is well familiar with this" really, really, really sure, or purdy please with sugar on top, could you also check with your supervisors supervisor, or your supervisors supervisors supervisor, or the CEO? Come on! Would anyone else have done that?...even an experienced traveler/cheerleader, much less a first timer like me?! :rolleyes:

ejammer -- Like everyone else I am sorry you missed your cruise. I hope there is some restitution, however I believe there was a communications disconnect either between you and Nikki or between her and Dana in that the fact that it is a German birth certificate.

Like you, I was a military brat then served on active duty. However, a very small portion of the US population fits that description. Where you ask in your response above "And why would anyone (including Nikki and her experienced supervisor Dana) assume a person born in Germany would be issued a birth certificate from any other country other than Germany? Has anyone ever even heard of the U.S. military issuing their own birth certificates?", someone unfamiliar with the military could just as easily ask why the US Government does not issue a birth certificate. The answer is that they do - it is the "US State Dept. Consular Report of Birth Abroad" which is one of the allowed documents.

Edited February 19, 2013 by richwmn

[TiogaCruiser]

Whoops. Thought that meant Dec 9, 2012 instead of Dec 12, 2009. Thank you. It was an honor, and privilege.

 

Just wondering, being you said this occurred in December, have you since applied for a passport, and what was the outcome (with the same documents)?

[sail7seas]

ejammer -- Like everyone else I am sorry you missed your cruise. I hope there is some restitution, however I believe there was a communications disconnect either between you and Nikki or between her and Dana in that the fact that it is a German birth certificate.

Like you, I was a military brat then served on active duty. However, a very small portion of the US population fits that description. Where you ask in your response above "And why would anyone (including Nikki and her experienced supervisor Dana) assume a person born in Germany would be issued a birth certificate from any other country other than Germany? Has anyone ever even heard of the U.S. military issuing their own birth certificates?", someone unfamiliar with the military could just as easily ask why the US Government does not issue a birth certificate. The answer is that they do - it is the "US State Dept. Consular Report of Birth Abroad" which is one of the allowed documents.

 

 

Thank you, Rich.

 

I was thinking this but am so unfamiliar with U.S. birth's abroad, I really did think a U.S. birth certificate could be issued to a U.S. citizen born in a U.S. Military hospital. Though my DH served and I traveled with him, we did not have children born abroad and I really had no way of knowing this information. Most of us here on CC don't have that information.

 

[richwmn]

Thank you, Rich.

 

I was thinking this but am so unfamiliar with U.S. birth's abroad, I really did think a U.S. birth certificate could be issued to a U.S. citizen born in a U.S. Military hospital. Though my DH served and I traveled with him, we did not have children born abroad and I really had no way of knowing this information. Most of us here on CC don't have that information.

 

I do not believe it is an automatic process. Here (http://travel.state.gov/travel/living/living_5497.html) is the state department's website about applying.

[Boytjie]

Hi all,

OUCH! Please note that ejammer had confirmed with HAL prior to cruising that his documentation was sufficient. Chastising him for not having a passport is not helpful, since he's missed out based on bad information. I love HAL, and certainly hope that they will do the right thing and comp him in a sufficient manner.

 

Well, it is general knowledge here that Seattle doesn't always knows what's best. ;) And with something as serious as potentially being denied boarding I would do more that just call HAL.

[cruisin'girl]

Well, it is general knowledge here that Seattle doesn't always knows what's best. ;) And with something as serious as potentially being denied boarding I would do more that just call HAL.

General knowledge here on CC maybe, but if you were a first time cruiser, not only first time on HAL but first time totally cruising or traveling out of the country, you would have NO reason to question what you were told by the cruiseline, especially from a supervisor. He has the conversation with them printed out and I think any first time cruiser would have thought they knew what they were talking about. It still isn't clear that customer service wasn't correct and the problem was dockside.

 

HAL should stop having customer service answer any question that the fine print in the contract says they are not responsible for the answer if it is incorrect.

[Boytjie]

RSVP does charters. That is the entire ship. I'm sure the documentation requirements are the same, charter or not.

 

It is exactly the same :)

[catl331]

Just wondering, being you said this occurred in December, have you since applied for a passport, and what was the outcome (with the same documents)?

Good question!! :)

[cherylandtk]

I do not believe it is an automatic process...

You're right, it's not. To muddle the waters further, the 'correct process' changes every generation or so. There are multiple documents that are still accepted as proof of citizenship, some of which are no longer issued and have been replaced by newer documents and processes. It appears to me that the OP does not have any of those specific documents.

 

Ejammer. Is it possible that your birth was reported to the consulate? It was not automatic in years past but many military hospitals did, and if your parents are still living they might also remember. It is probably worth it for you to ask for a search of the records. It is not free, but it is faster than your alternative. HERE is link to the process and forms for that search. Cost is $50.

 

Your alternative is to apply for a Certificate of Citizenship. It is your choice as to whether you even want to apply for a CoC, but I would recommend you do get one if you don't have a Consular Report, just to have a recognized document proving your citizenship. Yes, I know you have managed without one all these years, but in a post 9/11 environment and with the upcoming REAL ID act, you may need one. You certainly will need one if you want to apply for a passport. You cannot apply for a passport with just your German BC and your Father's BC.

 

If you do apply, your translated German birth certificate proves your father, and his Birth Certificate proves his Citizenship. The one additional item you will need is documentation to show your father's presence in the US (or serving in the Army overseas --> his DD 214) for the requisite number of years before and after the age of 14. This is the one thing that tends to be the most difficult to prove, as most people don't think to keep these sorts of records. In these cases, it also helps to have documents showing you have lived here essentially your entire life; this is where your Eagle Scout newspaper clippings and elementary report cards and even your childhood shot records come in handy. Hopefully your mother kept those things in a box the attic. If either of your parents are still living, they can also sign affidavits attesting to these facts.

 

Now for some good news: It normally would cost you $600 to apply for your CoC. As a veteran you are exempt from the fee, so be sure to include your DD 214. :) The application form is N-600 and can be found HERE. Filing tips are HERE, do nose around on the USCIS site if you have any questions on the application.

[cherylandtk]

Just wondering, being you said this occurred in December, have you since applied for a passport, and what was the outcome (with the same documents)?

Good question!! :)

I don't know if OP applied or not, but the two documents he has (his German BC and his father's US BC) are not sufficient by themselves. There is also a physical presence requirement for derived citizenship which must be proven to obtain a document accepted for use in a passport application. See my post above for more details.

[Boytjie]

4. The HAL representatives were woefully incorrect in advising the OP that his foreign-issued BC was acceptable.

 

I am not so sure that the HAL rep necessarily understood that it might not have been a US iisued birth certificate. I am not even sure who issued ithe BC, I think I recall reading about translations which makes me think it was issued by Germany.