B2B2B not allowed??

[mr walker]

Our group have been planning a trip for 2014 which was to include the following:

29-Aug: Rhapsody OTS - Seattle to Vancouver

5-Sept: Rhapsody OTS - Vancouver to Honolulu

16-Sept: Rhapsody OTS - Honolulu to Sydney,

 

so that would be 3 cruises back to back. cc member 'Billy Whizz' alerted us that this was not allowed, based on his previous experince ie to do 3 consecutive cruises on our roll call thread, and it seems he is 100% correct :eek:

based on advice from our local TA today.

 

We are Australian citizens, if that makes any difference.

 

Can this be true, & why would there be a rule like this? We know a little about the Jones rule (from cc), but can't see that we are breaking that, as each cruise departs and arrives in a different country.

 

Over to all you cc experts :D

[Clarea]

The part between Seattle to Honolulu may be the problem. You cannot travel between two different US ports without visiting a distant foreign port. Canada is not considered a distant foreign port. Skipping the first cruise should fix the problem.

Edited November 26, 2013 by clarea

[BND]

Our group have been planning a trip for 2014 which was to include the following:

29-Aug: Rhapsody OTS - Seattle to Vancouver

5-Sept: Rhapsody OTS - Vancouver to Honolulu

16-Sept: Rhapsody OTS - Honolulu to Sydney,

 

so that would be 3 cruises back to back. cc member 'Billy Whizz' alerted us that this was not allowed, based on his previous experince ie to do 3 consecutive cruises on our roll call thread, and it seems he is 100% correct :eek:

based on advice from our local TA today.

 

We are Australian citizens, if that makes any difference.

 

Can this be true, & why would there be a rule like this? We know a little about the Jones rule (from cc), but can't see that we are breaking that, as each cruise departs and arrives in a different country.

 

Over to all you cc experts :D

 

I don't know if there's a "rule" for Australians, but I do know that plenty of people do b2b2b and even more. Heck, we were just on Allure and the Captain mentioned Super Mario had just spent 8 consecutive weeks onboard. I don't know why it wouldn't be allowed, but someone else might know something.

 

I just saw clarea's response. It's an interesting reason. I wonder if "distant" is defined in miles anywhere or what makes a port "distant".

Edited November 25, 2013 by BND

[Starry Eyes]

certainly a B2B, effectively from Seattle to Honolulu, would not be allowed. But I would think and hope that by adding the third leg, you may be OK.

[BaumD]

Your citizenship has nothing to do with it. You should be able to do the consecutive cruises as they start in the US and end in Australia with no gaps.

[CRUZBUDS]

Distant port from the U.S. is South America or the ABC islands, just off the coast of Venezuela

 

I don't think staying on in Honolulu is considered. It's still considered Seattle to Honolulu. Of course, I may not know what I'm taking about.

Edited November 26, 2013 by CRUZBUDS

[BND]

Distant port from the U.S. is South America or the ABC islands, just off the coast of Venezuela

 

That would be distant:rolleyes:

[steveru621]

The part between Seattle to Honolulu may be the problem. You cannot travel between two different US ports without visiting a distant foreign port. Canada is not considered a distant foreign port. Skipping the first cruise should fix the problem.

 

Bob, for some reason I don't understand! :confused: If I went from Vancouver to Hawaii that's illegal?

[wrp96]

Just the first two wouldn't be allowed due to the PVSA (not the Jones Act, that applies to cargo). But all three together should be perfectly legal since it would be considered a cruise between a US port and a non-US port.

 

The distant foreign port requirement would only come into play if the cruise began and ended in 2 different US ports, which taken all together this trip doesn't.

 

Oh and nationality has nothing to do with whether it would be legal.

Edited November 26, 2013 by wrp96

[Clarea]

Bob, for some reason I don't understand! :confused: If I went from Vancouver to Hawaii that's illegal?

Vancouver to Hawaii is not a problem. Seattle to Hawaii is a problem. That's why Rhapsody's last cruise of the Alaska season ends up in Vancouver instead of the normal Seattle. That way they can go to Hawaii without a problem.

 

After reading the other responses, I agree that the B2B2B should be OK, since it's a cruise from Seattle to Sydney.

[Beth C]

Bob, for some reason I don't understand! :confused: If I went from Vancouver to Hawaii that's illegal?

 

Since you're disembarking in Vancouver or Hawaii it's perfectly legal. The problem arises when you add on another cruise that ends in the originating country. This year we wanted to do a B2B with the Alaska run following our Hawaii repo but couldn't because it would have been:

Honolulu - Vancouver

Vancouver - Seattle

 

Starting in USA & ending in another USA port :(

 

There were tons of people on the cruise who wanted to do this but couldn't - Royal should look at doing the first Alaska run post repo as a Vancouver-Vancouver round trip then make the following one end in Seattle.

 

Back to the OP - there was a woman on our Hawaii cruise that was doing in the range of 60 days on board - starting 'down under' and disembarking in Seattle (THEN doing a road trip across the USA!!) so it should be allowed unless something has changed in the last few months

Edited November 26, 2013 by Beth C

[wrp96]

Bob, for some reason I don't understand! :confused: If I went from Vancouver to Hawaii that's illegal?

 

No, it's fine.

 

Simply put there are different cruise types allowed under the PVSA.

 

1) cruise beginning and ending in same US port - has to stop at any foreign port (or be a cruise to nowhere)

 

2) a cruise between a US port and and a non-US port. Completely fine as is

 

3) a cruise between two different US ports. Has to stop at a distant foreign port as defined under the law.

 

 

A cruise between Vancouver and Hawaii is covered under #2. As is the OP's proposed Seattle to Sydney itinerary.

Edited November 26, 2013 by wrp96

[ireneadler]

 

3) a cruise between two different US ports. Has to stop at a distant foreign port as defined under the law.

 

 

But... WHY? I can't see the rationale behind it.

[Clarea]

But... WHY? I can't see the rationale behind it.

The law was created many years ago to protect US shipping. It only applies to non US flagged vessels.

[ireneadler]

The law was created many years ago to protect US shipping. It only applies to non US flagged vessels.

 

I see, so it's protectionism. Ok. I thought there could be an abstruse national security issue involved somehow. Everything seems to be security these days. :)

[chengkp75]

The law was created many years ago to protect US shipping. It only applies to non US flagged vessels.

 

The principle of cabotage is the reservation of transportation of cargo or passengers between ports of a given country to ships registered in that country. These laws have been in place since the 19th century, most recently codified in the Passenger Vessel Services Act of the 1920's. So the only ships that are allowed to take passengers from one US port to another US port is a US flag vessel. Other countries that have long coastlines (like Brazil) have cabotage laws as well, reserving carriage of goods to Brazilian ships.

 

These laws were designed to protect domestic jobs and companies, but since the demise of US shipping after WWII, the PVSA allows foreign ships to carry passengers out of US ports, provided that they meet the requirements listed in the posts above.

[Paulette3028]

The principle of cabotage is the reservation of transportation of cargo or passengers between ports of a given country to ships registered in that country. These laws have been in place since the 19th century, most recently codified in the Passenger Vessel Services Act of the 1920's. So the only ships that are allowed to take passengers from one US port to another US port is a US flag vessel. Other countries that have long coastlines (like Brazil) have cabotage laws as well, reserving carriage of goods to Brazilian ships.

 

These laws were designed to protect domestic jobs and companies, but since the demise of US shipping after WWII, the PVSA allows foreign ships to carry passengers out of US ports, provided that they meet the requirements listed in the posts above.

 

This whole discussion is confusing to me.....wouldn't this affect people cruising thru the Panama Canal....and for instance getting on a ship in San Diego that goes through the Panama Canal and has it final destination in Fort Lauderdale.

[Clarea]

This whole discussion is confusing to me.....wouldn't this affect people cruising thru the Panama Canal....and for instance getting on a ship in San Diego that goes through the Panama Canal and has it final destination in Fort Lauderdale.

I believe the stop in South America satisifes the distant foreign port requirement.

[CRUZBUDS]

This whole discussion is confusing to me.....wouldn't this affect people cruising thru the Panama Canal....and for instance getting on a ship in San Diego that goes through the Panama Canal and has it final destination in Fort Lauderdale.

 

No ships can do this without a stop in South America - Cartagena or sometimes Aruba

[Paulette3028]

I believe the stop in South America satisifes the distant foreign port requirement.

 

Thanks for that!!!

[mr walker]

Thanks to all for your input - cc is a great resource & so many helpful people.

 

After calls from our TA in Sydney to Miami & a separate response via email with RC office in Sydney, the answer is...... YAY - we are allowed to do this.

 

From the email I have extracted the below (there was some stuff about using our NCC's and cabin slections etc).

 

So we are doing it!

 

Good afternoon Neil,

 

Thank you for your email.

 

Rhapsody of The Seas

29th August 2014

5th September 2014

16th September 2014

 

You will be permitted to do the above 3 Back to Back cruises as your journey starts in Seattle (US) and finishes in Sydney (Aus). Im not sure why you would have been advised you would not be able to do this itinerary.

The rule you are referring to is the US Jones Act.

 

The Jones Act isa US Marine law that prevents guests from embarking a ship in one US port and disembarking in a different US port without first visiting a foreign distant port. Canada is not considered a foreign distant port. The rule does not apply if there are consecutive sailings on different vessels.

 

 

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require any further assistance.

 

Kind regards

 

Cruise Administration

[DAllenTCY]

Without a 24 hour stop over in Vancouver, your itinerary is illegal. Don't bank on anything that a TA tells you without written documentation from the cruise line or US CBP.

David

[wrp96]

Without a 24 hour stop over in Vancouver, your itinerary is illegal. Don't bank on anything that a TA tells you without written documentation from the cruise line or US CBP.

David

 

No it's not illegal. Seattle to Sydney is a perfectly legal itinerary - no overnight in Vancouver is required.

[Coralc]

Thanks to all for your input - cc is a great resource & so many helpful people.

 

After calls from our TA in Sydney to Miami & a separate response via email with RC office in Sydney, the answer is...... YAY - we are allowed to do this.

 

From the email I have extracted the below (there was some stuff about using our NCC's and cabin slections etc).

 

So we are doing it!

 

Good afternoon Neil,

 

Thank you for your email.

 

Rhapsody of The Seas

29th August 2014

5th September 2014

16th September 2014

 

You will be permitted to do the above 3 Back to Back cruises as your journey starts in Seattle (US) and finishes in Sydney (Aus). Im not sure why you would have been advised you would not be able to do this itinerary.

The rule you are referring to is the US Jones Act.

 

The Jones Act isa US Marine law that prevents guests from embarking a ship in one US port and disembarking in a different US port without first visiting a foreign distant port. Canada is not considered a foreign distant port. The rule does not apply if there are consecutive sailings on different vessels.

 

 

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require any further assistance.

 

Kind regards

 

Cruise Administration

 

But you're not on different vessels? :confused: And it is actually called the Passenger Vessel Services Act. (PVSA) The Jones Act refers to cargo ships. I hope it works out for you.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Coralc

[The Big Booper]

The act dates back to 1886.

 

Cargo is the Jones Act

 

People are the PVSA.

 

All Panama Canal full transits stop at either Aruba or Curacao to satisfy the law.

 

Our Nov repo on the Explorer from NJ to Fla. stops at both Aruba and Curacao. As long as the ship has to steam all the way down to South America it might as well visit both, but only one would do.