NORO on Westerdam? We didn't know.

[gwesq]

We sailed on the Westerdam Jan 11, and one of the things that impressed me about that cruise was the efforts at cleanliness being made on the ship. I wrote about this in my review (Which I submitted to CC a week ago, but it still has not been published).

 

HOWEVER, I am now seeing many reviews of the sailing prior to mine where they mention that the ship was practically on Shut Down beginning Tuesday due to a viral outbreak on the ship. I am wondering why HAL did not notify us of this situation when boarding? As a matter of fact, they did the opposite. We were given a letter stating that OTHER SHIPS in the region were experiencing outbreaks of Norovirus, so because of that, there would be no self service in the Lido restaurant for the first two days.

"OTHER SHIPS?" No! It was the Westerdam. Quite deceptive.

 

As far as I know, there was no such outbreak on our sailing. (I'm looking forward to see any reviews of this trip to se if others experienced any illness outbreaks. But CC has not posted any reviews for the past 2 weeks) THey were constantly washing things down, and, personally, we brought antibacterial wipes that we used to wipe down the surfaces in our cabin, and we used hand sanitizer constantly.

 

We enjoyed the trip and the ship, but I feel I should have been notified of that outbreak.

[Mumsysailor]

No self-serve in the Lido for the first couple of days is the norm for all HAL cruises. So is the constant cleaning of the ship. If there had been Noro on the previous cruise they would have done a deep clean before you boarded and the letter in the cabin is standard notification for everyone to be diligent.

 

I'm glad that you didn't experience Norovirus while on your cruise. It obviously shows that the precautions taken and recommended were working.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed your cruise. :)

Edited January 28, 2014 by Mumsysailor

[Randyk47]

We've been blessed or lucky or whatever and have never had a major outbreak of Norovirus on any of our cruises. That's not to say there have been no cases. I know on at least one cruise we were wandering around the ship and passed a cabin that obviously was being "deep cleaned". I mean there were four or five people in or around the cabin dressed in bio-suits like they were handling hazardous material. Kind of guessed that they knew or suspected the occupants had something like Norovirus thus the caution but there was certainly no announcement of any outbreak. Wipes and hand sanitizers are good but unless they're bleach (chlorine) based they actually are of little use against the Norovirus. Best part of using them is that it raises your own awareness of watching what you touch, etc.

[sail7seas]

There are rarely any ships that go out that there is not a single case of Noro virus aboard. It is safe to 'assume' someone boarded with it though they may not have yet displayed any symptoms. HAL's Code Orange (presumably ? ) has been set up to try and head off the spread right from the start of the cruise. There are some travel experts who suggest most noro comes aboard the ships carried by guests who were exposed in airports and aboard airplanes or in their pre-cruise hotels/restaurants.

 

HAL's Code Orange the first two days with no (limited - there are some breaches of the policy) self-service hopefully contains any spread of the virus.

 

I don't think Westerdam did anything wrong by not making a public announcement of Noro...... it isn't 'newsworthy' until it reaches a certain percentage of guests/crew.

 

[cbr663]

I always assume that any hotel room or cruise cabin that we stay in has not been disinfected. We always carry a disinfectant with us and disinfect the cruise cabin as soon as we enter it. It takes only a couple of minutes. Always make sure that you wipe down the telephone, tv remote and your suitcases before you touch them. Once your suitcase is out of your sight, you never know how many people have handled them.

[serendipity1499]

We sailed on the Westerdam Jan 11, and one of the things that impressed me about that cruise was the efforts at cleanliness being made on the ship. I wrote about this in my review (Which I submitted to CC a week ago, but it still has not been published).

 

HOWEVER, I am now seeing many reviews of the sailing prior to mine where they mention that the ship was practically on Shut Down beginning Tuesday due to a viral outbreak on the ship. I am wondering why HAL did not notify us of this situation when boarding? As a matter of fact, they did the opposite. We were given a letter stating that OTHER SHIPS in the region were experiencing outbreaks of Norovirus, so because of that, there would be no self service in the Lido restaurant for the first two days.

"OTHER SHIPS?" No! It was the Westerdam. Quite deceptive.

 

As far as I know, there was no such outbreak on our sailing. (I'm looking forward to see any reviews of this trip to se if others experienced any illness outbreaks. But CC has not posted any reviews for the past 2 weeks) THey were constantly washing things down, and, personally, we brought antibacterial wipes that we used to wipe down the surfaces in our cabin, and we used hand sanitizer constantly.

 

We enjoyed the trip and the ship, but I feel I should have been notified of that outbreak.

I bolded your sentence & put it in red only because I believe you probably have not sailed HAL before.. IMO HAL's Practices are not deceptive..What would you have done any differently if you had been informed of an outbreak on a previous cruise?

 

As Sail Seven Seas mentioned, I too believe there was no need for HAL to inform you of an outbreak on a previous cruise.. If there was one, they would completely disinfect the ship from top to bottom before new Psgrs boarded.. Noro is not reported unless there is a serious outbreak & in many cases the CDC , has to go aboard for inspections.. One of RCCL ships is cutting their cruise short by two days to return to port because more than 10% of the Psgrs & many crew members are ill right now with suspected Noro & the CDC boarded the ship in St. Thomas.. Was this reported to the CDC & did the CDC board the Westerdam because of the outbreak? What % of Psgrs were ill?

 

Noro must be reported to the CDC if 3% or more of the Psgrs are ill from it..The only two ships that were reported in 2014 is Explorer of the Seas which is cutting it's cruise short & the Norwegian Star..

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm#2014

 

HAL takes these outbreaks very seriously..

 

The crew always serves meals in the first few days in the Lido on all HAL ships..HAL has been sending that letter advising that there is no self service in the Lido at the beginning of every cruise for the past 5 years & maybe even more.. I've received the same letter on all our cruises for years..

 

In addition, when you boarded the Westerdam, you were given a form to fill out asking about your health.. If Psgrs would just be honest about their illness perhaps Noro would be avoided.. Noro is prevalent in Schools, Nursing Homes, Planes & anywhere people are confined to a small space..The last time HAL reported to the CDC about an outbreak was on the Veendam in April of 2013 & that was for e-Coli, not Noro..

 

Betty

Edited January 28, 2014 by serendipity1499

[0bnxshs]

You are assuming the reviews are not an exaggeration of the typical number of cases of GI illness on board nearly every sailing. The reviewers may have been directly impacted somehow and therefore not been exaggerating in their view. I'm not slamming the reviews you've read; I just know that getting the illness (or knowing someone who has) can really make the issue a large one for any person.

 

If you want to know whether there was an real "outbreak" of GI illnesses on board the sailing before yours, check out the CDC website. Cruise lines must report "outbreaks" to the CDC. It's located here: http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm

 

Right now, Westerdam is not on the list as having an "outbreak" in Jan. 2014. If there were passengers who did not report their illnesses to the ships' medical staff, which reputedly does happen, there can be a disconnect between what the ships' staff knows (and can warn incoming passengers about) and what is "officially" known.

 

cbr663 makes a great point... it's not a bad idea at all to assume cabins, bathrooms, hotel rooms, etc. are contaminated and to protect yourself accordingly. We've brought Lysol spray disinfectant and wipes with us when we travel.

Edited January 28, 2014 by 0bnxshs

[Krazy Kruizers]

I think that HAL started what is known as "Code Orange" back in 2009 -- only for the Lido where you can not touch anything there for 48 hours.

I checked the CDC reports and the Westerdam is not listed as having a Noro outbreak. They may have had a few sick people on the cruise before yours but apparently not what is known as having 3% of the passengers sick before it is reported to the CDC.

[sail7seas]

 

 

<snip>

 

 

cbr663 makes a great point... it's not a bad idea at all to assume cabins, bathrooms, hotel rooms, etc. are contaminated and to protect yourself accordingly. We've brought Lysol spray disinfectant and wipes with us when we travel.

 

 

Lysol is not effective against Noro as chlorox. I bring chlorox wipes and wipe down remote control, telephone, door knobs, toilet flush button, light switches, drawer pulls....... all those spots that likely were touched by others ahead of us and the steward may not have had time to pay attention to. It takes a few minutes and at least I feel as though we did what we could to take care of ourselves.

 

[happythoughts]

gwesq- during you sailing were the pools open? I believe the reviews I read mentioned that there was an outbreak and all the pools were closed but the stores were kept open

[sail7seas]

If there is a Code Red, it is announced. Salt and pepper shakers, flowers, bread baskets are removed from MDR and Lido tables. Library is closed. Pools and hot tubs closed. No self service in Lido...... Lot of things are off limits during a Code Red. Guests would know if that was the condition on the ship.

 

[gwesq]

We in fact did board assuming things would not have been disinfected, thus bringing our own disinfecting wipes, and washing constantly, and using hand sanitizer (The Purell stuff has little effect on Noro - but some "experts" now claim it does - , but there is a different disinfectant which does control Noro, and one of the ship's officers told me that was being used now).

 

I've sailed HAL about a dozen times before - but not since 2001, thus not familiar with their newer procedures.

 

My experience was to a large extent so different than those on the sailing before us who posted reviews. HAL did NOT shutdown pools, library, etc on our sailing, as they did the week before. HAL obviously did a pretty good job of getting things cleaned up. For example, one of the things I had noted in my review was that I even saw them cleaning every can of soda before delivering them to the bars. If 10 people posted that they were sick, I'm sure the actual number is much higher. On the other hand, I did note that not all of those people said anything about informing the ship's doctor, so HAL may not have known. But HAL did know enough were ill to shut down most things on TUesday.

 

WHEW - so glad that didn't happen on our sailing.

 

BUT I still think the letter was deceptive in saying OTHER SHIPS experienced the outbreak. If you look at the CDC site, only one ship doing a similar itinerary reported an outbreak, and they did know there was an outbreak on Westerdam. They should have mentioned that in the letter. As one who spent my career reviewing all literature my company published to assure nothing was false or misleading, I guess I'm a little sensitive to how things are worded! :-) QUESTION: Several people said that letter is standard. Do they always say other ships had that experience, or is it just the explanation of procedures that is in the standard letter?

[RJ2002]

QUESTION: Several people said that letter is standard. Do they always say other ships had that experience, or is it just the explanation of procedures that is in the standard letter?

 

The letter I have seen before has used the phrase "...other ships...".

[kazu]

I think I would have rather been on that Westerdam cruise than the recent Royal Carribean which ended abruptly due to the 500+ passengers with Noro.;)

[Roz]

If you didn't contract norovirus, why are you even worrying about something that didn't happen?

 

Roz

[cbr663]

 

BUT I still think the letter was deceptive in saying OTHER SHIPS experienced the outbreak. If you look at the CDC site, only one ship doing a similar itinerary reported an outbreak, and they did know there was an outbreak on Westerdam. They should have mentioned that in the letter. As one who spent my career reviewing all literature my company published to assure nothing was false or misleading, I guess I'm a little sensitive to how things are worded! :-) QUESTION: Several people said that letter is standard. Do they always say other ships had that experience, or is it just the explanation of procedures that is in the standard letter?

 

I share your concern and find that the lack of transparency troublesome. The CDC appears to only release notice of illness once the number has reached 3% of the passenger or crew population. For a ship carrying 2100 pax, that means the the cruise line has to have reported 63 pax. If they report 62, nothing is apparently reported by the CDC. If there are 200 pax ill, but only 61 show up at the medical centre onboard, nothing is apparently reported by the CDC. So it isn't always clear when an outbreak has occurred and when it hasn't.

 

This is yet another reason to take heightened precautions. For instance, we would never swim in the pool or take a dip in the hot tubs as these are prime areas for fecal matter. Same thing with the lounge chairs. People laying about on these, constantly moving about and sweating with nothing but a thin strip of clothing between them and the chair. I realize that this is not the most polite matter to discuss, but being more aware of how the virus is easily spread can help reduce its transmission.

[serendipity1499]

We in fact did board assuming things would not have been disinfected, thus bringing our own disinfecting wipes, and washing constantly, and using hand sanitizer (The Purell stuff has little effect on Noro - but some "experts" now claim it does - , but there is a different disinfectant which does control Noro, and one of the ship's officers told me that was being used now).

 

I've sailed HAL about a dozen times before - but not since 2001, thus not familiar with their newer procedures.

 

My experience was to a large extent so different than those on the sailing before us who posted reviews. HAL did NOT shutdown pools, library, etc on our sailing, as they did the week before. HAL obviously did a pretty good job of getting things cleaned up. For example, one of the things I had noted in my review was that I even saw them cleaning every can of soda before delivering them to the bars. If 10 people posted that they were sick, I'm sure the actual number is much higher. On the other hand, I did note that not all of those people said anything about informing the ship's doctor, so HAL may not have known. But HAL did know enough were ill to shut down most things on TUesday.

 

WHEW - so glad that didn't happen on our sailing.

 

BUT I still think the letter was deceptive in saying OTHER SHIPS experienced the outbreak. was false or misleading, I guess I'm a little sensitive to how things are If you look at the CDC site, only one ship doing a similar itinerary reported an outbreak, and they did know there was an outbreak on Westerdam. They should have mentioned that in the letter. As one who spent my career reviewing all literature my company published to assure nothing worded! :-) QUESTION: Several people said that letter is standard. Do they always say other ships had that experience, or is it just the explanation of procedures that is in the standard letter?

 

You don't seem to understand or you are not reading others who replied to your post..And you certainly did not read the CDC WEB site..

It is considered an outbreak only if 3% of the Psgrs &/or Crew have Noro. Then the CDC becomes involved & posts that report! Obviously HAL tried to control it when some Psgrs & Crew became ill on the cruise before yours.. Read the CDC WEB site & maybe you will understand more..

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm

 

And as ROZ asked, I fail to understand why are you concerned after the fact?

 

Betty

[sherilyn70]

It would seem that the reviewers that posted have never heard of ships getting Noro outbreaks before. They all claim they'll never use HAL again because of this... what difference does the cruise line make? They all get them. I sailed RCCL and caught it in 2012, I wouldn't avoid them because of it in the future. I read one review talk about respiratory issues and a rash, that has nothing to do with Noro of course but they figured they'd toss that in there. :)

[Roz]

Nursing homes, day cares, and schools have noro outbreaks on a regular basis, yet most people continue to send their loved ones to these places.

 

To the original poster, if you had known about the noro, would you have not boarded the ship and forfeited your cruise fare?

 

Roz

[rkacruiser]

I was aboard the Westerdam for her January 4th sailing, just prior to the OP. It is correct we were in Code Red from Tuesday afternoon until we returned to Fort Lauderdale. We were initially told that 10 guests had suffered some type of GI issue and that Code Red was instituted to prevent any further spread of the illness. It was NEVER identified as Norovirus.

 

The reviews of this cruise that have been posted on CC have all been, in my opinion, unfairly harsh. The staff did an excellent job, in my opinion, working under the Code Red conditions. I personally saw staff members sanitizing the theater seats, floors, and hand rails following an evening performance. Stewards were stationed at the gangway insisting that one get a squirt of Purell prior to re-boarding the ship after Code Red was started. Such Code Red conditions put an additional strain on all of the staff, particularly those Stewards/Staff in service-type positions.

 

I am sorry that those who have posted such negative reviews of the January 4th cruise felt that their experience was spoiled. I know many others who enjoyed a great cruise. And, that includes me! It was one of my truly best cruise experiences!

 

Is Code Red inconvienent? Most certainly it is for the guests and the crew. But, IMO, it is far better to do what can be done to limit the spread of disease than to do nothing.

[donaldsc]

HOWEVER, I am now seeing many reviews of the sailing prior to mine where they mention that the ship was practically on Shut Down beginning Tuesday due to a viral outbreak on the ship. I am wondering why HAL did not notify us of this situation when boarding?

 

k.

 

Why should they? Would a hotel notify you under the same circumstances? Would any place notify you. I doubt it.

 

DON

[Coupe]

Norovirus is names after a school in Norwalk, Ohio which was infected. Anyplace that people gather is a risk for it.

[Typhoon1]

Code Orange is a very successful approach to stopping the spread of Noro. Other lines need to take a lesson from HALs success.

[hrhdhd]

You don't seem to understand or you are not reading others who replied to your post..And you certainly did not read the CDC WEB site..

 

It is considered an outbreak only if 3% of the Psgrs &/or Crew have Noro. Then the CDC becomes involved & posts that report! Obviously HAL tried to control it when some Psgrs & Crew became ill on the cruise before yours.. Read the CDC WEB site & maybe you will understand more..

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm

 

And as ROZ asked, I fail to understand why are you concerned after the fact?

Betty

 

With all due respect, you don't seem to be understanding the OP's point. The OP received the identical letter that we received on our Eurodam cruise in November and on other HAL cruises prior to that one. It is essentially a form letter and reads as if cruise ships at that very minute are experiencing outbreaks. It would be better if the letter more clearly stated the causes and symptoms of Noro and steps passengers could take to reduce their risk rather than make up non-existent outbreaks as a way to make a point. Besides, after being handed the letter more than once and knowing that it's just a form letter, people will be more likely to ignore it. I know I've rolled my eyes at it more than once.

 

And as far as being concerned after the fact, people post all the time about experiences after the fact. Now are we only allowing people to post about experiences that haven't happened? :confused:

[cbr663]

With all due respect, you don't seem to be understanding the OP's point. The OP received the identical letter that we received on our Eurodam cruise in November and on other HAL cruises prior to that one. It is essentially a form letter and reads as if cruise ships at that very minute are experiencing outbreaks. It would be better if the letter more clearly stated the causes and symptoms of Noro and steps passengers could take to reduce their risk rather than make up non-existent outbreaks as a way to make a point. Besides, after being handed the letter more than once and knowing that it's just a form letter, people will be more likely to ignore it. I know I've rolled my eyes at it more than once.

 

 

We also received the same form letter and when I quickly read it, it did leave me with the impression that norowalk virus was a problem for other cruise lines and not Holland. I also felt that the letter could create a false sense of security with regard to the illness. Why have everyone standing around with hand sanitizers when you've led me to believe that there isn't an issue on board?