Is this B2B itinerary legal?

[Lyndonn]

The PSVA can be such a pain!

 

Looking to maybe book the new Jewel September 2015 itinerary B2B:

 

#1 Seattle to Vancouver (7 nt. Alaska)

#2 Vancouver to LA (8 nt. Relo)

 

Is this itinerary B2B fair or foul?

We're booked on the same B2B sailings, same stateroom both legs.

 

I called RCI and was told that each sailing:

 

Sep 11, 2015 - Seattle to Vancouver, BC

Sep 18, 2015 - Vancouver, BC to Los Angeles

 

are separate sailings and DO NOT violate the Jones Act.

 

Please advise if you hear differently from ROYAL CARIBBEAN.

 

Thank you :-)

[TheHappyWanderers]

Not sure I understand. Can you provide the details on the two situations?

 

 

OK

I am trying to book the Jewel, Spetember 18th cruise from Vancouver to Los Angeles. I want to do a back-to-back with the 2 round trip Los Angeles cruises on September 26 and October 3.

My TA is saying that I will violate the Jones Act (or whatever name we are referring to it as). I would embark the Jewel on September 18 in Vancouver and I would disembark the Jewel on October 10th in Los Angeles.

What is confusing me is, if you look at the September 18th cruise as a stand-alone, it begins in Vancouver and ends in Los Angeles, with a disembark date of September 26. What's the difference if I disembark in Los Angeles on September 26th or October 10th?

This part does not make sense to me.

Thank you for trying to help.

Gigi

[mjldvlks]

Not to hijack this thread, but my question is within the same guidelines. Why can't I book a cruise from Vancouver, that terminates in Los Angeles, as a back-to-back with a Los Angeles round trip itinerary? I embark in Vancouver and debark in Los Angeles. (Which is what I would be doing if I JUST took the first cruise which is Vancouver to Los Angeles.)

Can someone out there explain this to me? I really would appreciate the input. Thank you.

Gigi

Shouldn't be a problem. Both legs are legal and the combination of the two cruises is Foreign to US which is also legal.

[Clarea]

OK

I am trying to book the Jewel, Spetember 18th cruise from Vancouver to Los Angeles. I want to do a back-to-back with the 2 round trip Los Angeles cruises on September 26 and October 3.

My TA is saying that I will violate the Jones Act (or whatever name we are referring to it as). I would embark the Jewel on September 18 in Vancouver and I would disembark the Jewel on October 10th in Los Angeles.

What is confusing me is, if you look at the September 18th cruise as a stand-alone, it begins in Vancouver and ends in Los Angeles, with a disembark date of September 26. What's the difference if I disembark in Los Angeles on September 26th or October 10th?

This part does not make sense to me.

Thank you for trying to help.

Gigi

I don't see anything wrong with either the 3 consecutive cruises, or any one of them.

 

If you take all 3 cruises, you start in Vancouver and end in Los Angeles, right? If so, then that cruise is not subject to the conditions of the PVSA since both endpoints are not in the US.

 

Maybe the TA does not realize that Vancouver is not in the US?

[mjldvlks]

Which is what the OP was asking about to start the thread.

Right but we got kind of side tracked talking about folks who were starting with the leg that embarked in Vancouver.

[voyager70]

We're booked on the same B2B sailings, same stateroom both legs.

 

I called RCI and was told that each sailing:

 

Sep 11, 2015 - Seattle to Vancouver, BC

Sep 18, 2015 - Vancouver, BC to Los Angeles

 

are separate sailings and DO NOT violate the Jones Act.

 

Please advise if you hear differently from ROYAL CARIBBEAN.

 

Thank you :-)

 

 

It's not the Jones Act. It's the PVSA that you will violate on the B2B. RCI reps are notorious for giving out bad information.

Edited February 20, 2014 by voyager70

[TheHappyWanderers]

I don't see anything wrong with either the 3 consecutive cruises, or any one of them.

 

If you take all 3 cruises, you start in Vancouver and end in Los Angeles, right? If so, then that cruise is not subject to the conditions of the PVSA since both endpoints are not in the US.

 

Maybe the TA does not realize that Vancouver is not in the US?

 

Thank you Bob....you saved me from pulling out ALL of my hair! :)

 

Hijack over now.

Edited February 20, 2014 by TheHappyWanderers
added text

[BaumD]

I've been reading about the PVSA and Jones act for years. Finally saw something that discussed the Jones Act. Forgot which US cities were involved, but a US city that is running out of salt for their roads due to the bad winter is trying to get a shipload of salt deliver from another US port. The only ship available to deliver the road salt was foreign flagged vessel, so they couldn't get their salt shipped - JONES ACT.

[Beachin2]

We're booked on the same B2B sailings, same stateroom both legs.

 

I called RCI and was told that each sailing:

 

Sep 11, 2015 - Seattle to Vancouver, BC

Sep 18, 2015 - Vancouver, BC to Los Angeles

 

are separate sailings and DO NOT violate the Jones Act.

 

Please advise if you hear differently from ROYAL CARIBBEAN.

 

Thank you :-)

 

Diamond Plus desk said it was a violation and they would not allow the booking. Call them for yourself 800-526-9723 press 9 at the initial menu.

 

If you get a different answer PLEASE let me know!

[aurelius180]

I've been reading about the PVSA and Jones act for years. Finally saw something that discussed the Jones Act. Forgot which US cities were involved, but a US city that is running out of salt for their roads due to the bad winter is trying to get a shipload of salt deliver from another US port. The only ship available to deliver the road salt was foreign flagged vessel, so they couldn't get their salt shipped - JONES ACT.

 

 

Haha...it's New Jersey. Their salt is stuck up in Maine.

[bigeck]

Didn't realise this thread had lasted so long.

 

I originally was going to do Seward-Vancouver-Honolulu. That's illegal.

I was told I would have to sail Radiance for Alaska and Rhapsody to Hawaii.

 

When Jewel was released I decided to book Seattle-Vancouver-LA.

The West coast looked like a good cruise and nice ports.

So I called and after the 4th or 5th rep, I was told it was legal and received a long explanation why this was legal and Hawaii wasn't.

So I called the Ta and she booked it for me.

I have to say my Ta worked for a long time in the English office for Rci until they closed it at the end of the year. She has started up on her own now and she also said it was legal.

 

I'm booked and happy.....

[suzyluvs2cruise]

The PSVA can be such a pain!

 

Looking to maybe book the new Jewel September 2015 itinerary B2B:

 

#1 Seattle to Vancouver (7 nt. Alaska)

#2 Vancouver to LA (8 nt. Relo)

 

Is this itinerary B2B fair or foul?

 

It's legal. Booked it this morning

 

Sent from my C6903 using Forums mobile app

 

I tried to book it on Wednesday. Not allowed per RCI. :(

[TheHappyWanderers]

Just got off the phone with Royal.

They said that the only combinations of cruises that are disallowed, regarding the Jewels itineraries on the west coast in 2015, are as follows:

 

The May 16 sailing from San Deigo to Vancouver with the

May 22 sailing from Vancouver to Seattle.

 

AND

 

The September 11 sailing from Seattle to Vancouver with the

September 18 sailing from Vancouver to Los Angeles

 

This is because one cannot embark and disembark in a different US city(without it stopping in a distant foreign port), unless it is a round trip itinerary.

[Clarea]

Didn't realise this thread had lasted so long.

 

I originally was going to do Seward-Vancouver-Honolulu. That's illegal.

I was told I would have to sail Radiance for Alaska and Rhapsody to Hawaii.

 

When Jewel was released I decided to book Seattle-Vancouver-LA.

The West coast looked like a good cruise and nice ports.

So I called and after the 4th or 5th rep, I was told it was legal and received a long explanation why this was legal and Hawaii wasn't.

So I called the Ta and she booked it for me.

I have to say my Ta worked for a long time in the English office for Rci until they closed it at the end of the year. She has started up on her own now and she also said it was legal.

 

I'm booked and happy.....

I would get something in writing from your TA that says they will compensate you for any non-refundable expenses (airfare, etc.) if you should later be notified that the PVSA prevents that cruise itinerary. That way you are covered.

Edited February 20, 2014 by clarea

[bigeck]

I would get something in writing from your TA that says they will compensate you for any non-refundable expenses (airfare, etc.) if you should later be notified that the PVSA prevents that cruise itinerary. That way you are covered.

 

Will do. It will be a long time before we can book flights and will have plenty time to get a definite answer. Usual Rci. Every rep has a different answer,

maybe Radiance to Hawaii is back on again

 

Thanks again

[ahecht]

If you want the information straight from the horse's mouth, check out the PDF at http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title19-vol1/pdf/CFR-2012-title19-vol1-sec4-80a.pdf

 

Some excerpts:

(1) Coastwise port means a port in the

U.S., its territories, or possessions embraced

within the coastwise laws.

(2) Nearby foreign port means any foreign

port in North America, Central

America, the Bermuda Islands, or the

West Indies (including the Bahama Islands,

but not including the Leeward

Islands of the Netherlands Antilles,

i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao). A

port in the U.S. Virgin Islands shall be

treated as a nearby foreign port.

Translation: Canada, Mexico, and most of the Caribbean are nearby foreign ports.

(3) Distant foreign port means any foreign

port that is not a nearby port.

Translation: The ABC islands are distant foreign ports, as are ports in South America (e.g. Columbia) or the far pacific (e.g. Kiribati).

...

(b) The applicability of the coastwise

law (46 U.S.C. 289) to a vessel not qualified

to engage in the coastwise trade

(i.e., either a foreign-flag vessel or a

U.S.-flag vessel that is foreign-built or

at one time has been under foreignflag)

which embarks a passenger at a

coastwise port is as follows:

Translation: this only applies to foreign-flagged ships

(1) If the passenger is on a voyage

solely to one or more coastwise ports

and the passenger disembarks or goes

ashore temporarily at a coastwise port,

there is a violation of the coastwise

law.

Translation: A cruise that only stops at US ports is illegal if passengers are allowed to go ashore. A cruise to nowhere is not considered a voyage to a port and is therefore legal (this was established in 29 O.A.G. 318 (1912), which is not available online)

(2) If the passenger is on a voyage to

one or more coastwise ports and a

nearby foreign port or ports (but at no

other foreign port) and the passenger

disembarks at a coastwise port other

than the port of embarkation, there is

a violation of the coastwise law.

Translation: A cruise that stops at a nearby foreign port (the Caribbean, Mexico, or Canada) can allow passengers to go ashore at other US ports, but passengers cannot disembark there.

(3) If the passenger is on a voyage to

one or more coastwise ports and a distant

foreign port or ports (whether or

not the voyage includes a nearby foreign

port or ports) and the passenger

disembarks at a coastwise port, there

is no violation of the coastwise law

provided the passenger has proceeded

with the vessel to a distant foreign

port.

Translation: If you go with the ship to a distant foreign port, you can disembark wherever you want.

© An exception to the prohibition in

this section is the transportation of

passengers between ports in Puerto

Rico and other ports in the U.S. on passenger

vessels not qualified to engage

in the coastwise trade. Such transportation

is permitted until there is a

finding under 46 U.S.C. 289c that a

qualified U.S.-flag passenger

Translation: Puerto Rico is exempt because no US ships go there.

Edited February 20, 2014 by ahecht

[Lyndonn]

Diamond Plus desk said it was a violation and they would not allow the booking. Call them for yourself 800-526-9723 press 9 at the initial menu.

 

If you get a different answer PLEASE let me know!

It appears that we each received different answers, because I spoke with the Diamond Plus desk today too. I was placed on hold so she could check with someone with more knowledge on the Jones Act.

 

Shall we try for a third call to RCI and go for the best 2 out of 3, the winner? :-)

 

I recall last year receiving a call from Celebrity saying that the following B2B2B was in violation of the Jones Act.

 

Leg 1 - Seattle to Vancouver, BC

Leg 2 - Vancouver to Honolulu

Leg 3 - Honolulu to Sydney, Australia

 

I was told we could do legs 2 & 3, but not 1 & 2. My question now is how does this itinerary differ from the OP question?

 

Thanks for everyone's answers.

[Ourusualbeach]

It appears that we each received different answers, because I spoke with the Diamond Plus desk today too. I was placed on hold so she could check with someone with more knowledge on the Jones Act.

 

Shall we try for a third call to RCI and go for the best 2 out of 3, the winner? :-)

 

I recall last year receiving a call from Celebrity saying that the following B2B2B was in violation of the Jones Act.

 

Leg 1 - Seattle to Vancouver, BC

Leg 2 - Vancouver to Honolulu

Leg 3 - Honolulu to Sydney, Australia

 

I was told we could do legs 2 & 3, but not 1 & 2. My question now is how does this itinerary differ from the OP question?

 

Thanks for everyone's answers.

 

You were given the correct info. Leg 1 and 2 is from one US city to another US city without stopping at a distant foreign port.

 

Leg 2 and 3 is foreign port to foreign port therefore no restrictions.

 

You could alo have done legs 1, 2 and 3 combined.

[Clarea]

It appears that we each received different answers, because I spoke with the Diamond Plus desk today too. I was placed on hold so she could check with someone with more knowledge on the Jones Act.

 

Shall we try for a third call to RCI and go for the best 2 out of 3, the winner? :-)

 

I recall last year receiving a call from Celebrity saying that the following B2B2B was in violation of the Jones Act.

 

Leg 1 - Seattle to Vancouver, BC

Leg 2 - Vancouver to Honolulu

Leg 3 - Honolulu to Sydney, Australia

 

I was told we could do legs 2 & 3, but not 1 & 2. My question now is how does this itinerary differ from the OP question?

 

Thanks for everyone's answers.

You definitely cannot do 1+2. However, you should have been able to do 1+2+3 or 2+3.

[cruisenfever]

 

Sep 11, 2015 - Seattle to Vancouver, BC

Sep 18, 2015 - Vancouver, BC to Los Angeles

 

 

When Jewel was released I decided to book Seattle-Vancouver-LA.

You can not embark in one US port and disembark in another US port. Even though you are doing a b2b which had 2 separate booking numbers you are embarking at one US port and disembarking at another which is not allowed.

 

We could not do a b2b that included Cape Liberty to Quebec and then Quebec to Ft. Lauderdale in October of 2015 because it is in violation of the PVSA act.

 

The Questionnaire Pay attention to Question #4.

 

Answering "YES" to ALL of the questions below will likely constitute a PVSA violation.

 

1.Will you initially embark in a US port?

 

2.Will your voyage be entirely on the same vessel?

 

3.Is the vessel registered and flagged in a foreign nation?

 

4.Will your final disembarkation be at a different US port than which you initially embarked at (note that this may include previously unplanned disembarkation during the middle of a cruise due to illness/injury/emergency)?

 

5.Will your voyage only include ports within North America (Hawaii included. Aruba, Curacao, and Bonaire excluded)?

 

 

 

[voyager70]

You can not embark in one US port and disembark in another US port. Even though you are doing a b2b which had 2 separate booking numbers you are embarking at one US port and disembarking at another which is not allowed.

 

We could not do a b2b that included Cape Liberty to Quebec and then Quebec to Ft. Lauderdale in October of 2015 because it is in violation of the PVSA act.

 

The Questionnaire Pay attention to Question #4.

 

Answering "YES" to ALL of the questions below will likely constitute a PVSA violation.

 

1.Will you initially embark in a US port?

 

2.Will your voyage be entirely on the same vessel?

 

3.Is the vessel registered and flagged in a foreign nation?

 

4.Will your final disembarkation be at a different US port than which you initially embarked at (note that this may include previously unplanned disembarkation during the middle of a cruise due to illness/injury/emergency)?

 

5.Will your voyage only include ports within North America (Hawaii included. Aruba, Curacao, and Bonaire excluded)?

 

 

 

 

 

Well done Patti. I've had enough of trying to explain this to people who want to believe otherwise ;)

[cruisenfever]

Well done Patti. I've had enough of trying to explain this to people who want to believe otherwise ;)

The PVSA can be very confusing. It's also unfortunate that the many of the RCI reps aren't aware of what a legal and illegal sailing consists of especially when you are doing a b2b.

 

I found that questionnaire on the internet and think that it's one of the best ways to figure out if your cruise is a legal one or not.

 

I just hope that they find out before they make their flight arrangements.:D

Edited February 21, 2014 by cruisenfever

[mr walker]

Leg 1 - Seattle to Vancouver, BC

Leg 2 - Vancouver to Honolulu

Leg 3 - Honolulu to Sydney, Australia

 

We are doing this itinerary in Aug/Sep/Oct this year on Rhapsody. We were initially told by RC we couldn't do this, but subsequently we were told we could (and we have that in writing from RC :D)

 

We couldn't do 1&2, but 1,2 & 3 are ok & not contravening the PVSA rules. Some one from our roll call was trying to do 1&2 & actually booked it and then 'got the call' - I understand they changed from Rhapsody to Radiance for Alaskan leg.

 

Despite what some poster said, many on these boards provide accurate information that is helpful to many & it is appreciated.

 

Happy cruising

[crzndeb]

In 2012, I took the Carnival Spirit to Australia...I did a B2B2B. I boarded in Seattle and did an Alaska cruise. It then left Vancouver for the Hawaii leg, and then Honolulu to Sydney. Mine was legal because the disembarking city was Sydney. So I was transported from Seattle to Sydney.

And as others have said, I couldn't have disembarked in Honolulu.

 

And I really wish people would learn the correct act. It's the Passenger Vessel Service Act (PVSA)...the Jones Act refers to cargo, and I am not that. It really goes to show how untrained the cruise reps are.

[IWORK2CRUISE]

Does the same apply if the B2B were Hawaii to Vancouver and then the 1st leg of an Alaska sailing?

 

If the Alaska sailing begins and ends in Vancouver, I believe that is fine. The problem comes in if the sailing ends in Seattle or Seward.

Edited February 21, 2014 by IWORK2CRUISE