Distressing Development: Luxor

[Hawaiidan]

My thoughts on visiting these troubled areas are best expressed as to how I responded to family and friends as we prepared to visit Egypt and Israel a few years ago.

 

FF: You are really going to Egypt and Israel at this time with all the trouble there?

 

Me: yes, we are

 

FF: You are not worried about all the trouble and bombings, etc?

 

Me: I have some bad news for you. I cannot believe that you have never been told this before.

 

FF: What is that?

 

Me: One day, might be today, might be tomorrow, might be 50 years from now. But, one day, you are going to die. If I die in one of these areas where many greats have died before me, then the area was good enough for them to die there, guess it will be good enough for me to die there. Especially since I will be doing something I enjoy doing.

 

Obviously as I am now posting this, despite I am sure wishes of some you cats, I returned alive and in one piece. Would I return to this area? Give me the boarding pass, I am on my way.

 

Its about values....you value Egypt so highly that you'd be willing to die there, and willingly give up youre entire future potential. That's pretty powerful.

 

Me, Egypt is a curiosity, nothing more and noting to risk anything over.

There are many things in this world I want to still see and do that I just plain don't want to risk them ALL for one thing that might preclude dozens of others or my entire future. The benefit does not, for me justify the risk.

 

Now, fellow travelers...how much do you value a place. Like going to Las vegas.... and willingly feel comfortable with laying down your entire life savings on a crap table.

[ORV]

Its about values....you value Egypt so highly that you'd be willing to die there, and willingly give up youre entire future potential. That's pretty powerful.

 

Me, Egypt is a curiosity, nothing more and noting to risk anything over.

There are many things in this world I want to still see and do that I just plain don't want to risk them ALL for one thing that might preclude dozens of others or my entire future. The benefit does not, for me justify the risk.

 

Now, fellow travelers...how much do you value a place. Like going to Las vegas.... and willingly feel comfortable with laying down your entire life savings on a crap table.

 

Good Lord help me, I'm starting to agree with you.;)

Edited June 13, 2015 by ORV

[Wendy The Wanderer]

[quote name=Lane412000;46832021...

...

Obviously as I am now posting this' date=' despite I am sure wishes of some you cats, I returned alive and in one piece. Would I return to this area? Give me the boarding pass, I am on my way.[/quote]

 

I like the way you think!

 

Its about values....you value Egypt so highly that you'd be willing to die there, and willingly give up youre entire future potential. That's pretty powerful.

 

Me, Egypt is a curiosity, nothing more and noting to risk anything over.

There are many things in this world I want to still see and do that I just plain don't want to risk them ALL for one thing that might preclude dozens of others or my entire future. The benefit does not, for me justify the risk.

 

Now, fellow travelers...how much do you value a place. Like going to Las vegas.... and willingly feel comfortable with laying down your entire life savings on a crap table.

 

Egypt is not Las Vegas, that latter place being somewhere I have no interest in seeing. But the Pyramids and the great temples of the pharoahs is something I have always wanted to see.

 

I would prefer not to die there, and I wouldn't go if I *knew* the danger level was high, but from what I've heard, it's not. But future potential? I'm in my late sixties, my expectations of the future are fairly low, except perhaps to travel 'til I drop. I fully expect to be reporting back in early November and saying, "go to Egypt now!"

Edited June 13, 2015 by Wendy The Wanderer

[buggins0402]

There is a very similar situation (potential port cancellations) setting up next year with the Black Sea itinerary in September 2016. I keep looking at the itinerary as a potential cruise...despite the fact that three ports may be cancelled if the situation in the Ukraine is not resolved. The dates work as to when I can fit in a vacation and some of the other ports are of interest. I just can't figure out possilble substitute ports, because the rest of the itinerary includes most of the other Black Sea ports.

 

It should be noted that we cruised a Holylands itinerary a few years back, knowing we could end up with a modified Greek Island itinerary instead. Egypt went off without a hitch, but Israel had a major rocket attack start the evening before we ported. We still ported, but other ships following over the next few days diverted.

Edited June 13, 2015 by buggins0402

[BillPizzaiolo]

I realize the most probable reason for Oceania skipping the port for Cairo. It has to do with logistics. Transporting the very large group of passengers once on land in a place where those very obvious large groups will be moving in convoy to the various sites would be an attractive nuisance to any terrorist looking for a headline.

I feel the same way every time we go into Times Square. Maybe it is my hyper vigilant mode learned from my tour of duty in Saigon and Danang. Large groups of people in one small place make me nervous. Yet as the Duprees sing, I want to see the Pyramids along the Nile.

[SellaVee]

I realize the most probable reason for Oceania skipping the port for Cairo. It has to do with logistics. Transporting the very large group of passengers once on land in a place where those very obvious large groups will be moving in convoy to the various sites would be an attractive nuisance to any terrorist looking for a headline.

I feel the same way every time we go into Times Square. Maybe it is my hyper vigilant mode learned from my tour of duty in Saigon and Danang. Large groups of people in one small place make me nervous. Yet as the Duprees sing, I want to see the Pyramids along the Nile.

 

I think I'll settle for watching the sunrise on a tropic isle :).

[wripro]

There are two totally separate issues being discussed here. If someone wants to take the chance to travel to Egypt now that is certainly their prerogative and I would never dare to dissuade them. In fact, I applaud the determination to visit a place despite possible danger. The other issue , whether Oceania or any cruise line, should cancel a port after final payment when people no longer have the choice to back out if they wish, is not the same.

[Travelcat2]

While I do not believe that a refund is necessary if a port is cancelled after final payment, it would be a nice gesture to have the amount paid transferred to another cruise.

[Winner]

A nicer gesture, as Wripro has suggested, is to cancel the ports before final payment is due. Passengers then have an option.

[DavidTheWonderer]

I'm certainly not going to try to persuade anyone to go to Egypt, or to not go.

 

Before the difficulties erupted in Egypt, tourism accounted for between 5 - 10% of their gross domestic product, and they are desperate to get those folks back. So they're working very very hard to make sure that those few tourists who are beginning to come back are safe. We're scheduled to go in October, and between now and then will certainly be watching the situation closely. But so far I have no qualms with going. Your mileage may vary.

 

Of course, it is possible that we'll get T-boned by a cement truck while we're in the limo going to the airport to fly to Cairo, and die without getting to see the pyramids. One more thing to worry about ...

[Lane412000]

Its about values....you value Egypt so highly that you'd be willing to die there, and willingly give up youre entire future potential. That's pretty powerful.

 

Me, Egypt is a curiosity, nothing more and noting to risk anything over.

There are many things in this world I want to still see and do that I just plain don't want to risk them ALL for one thing that might preclude dozens of others or my entire future. The benefit does not, for me justify the risk.

 

Now, fellow travelers...how much do you value a place. Like going to Las vegas.... and willingly feel comfortable with laying down your entire life savings on a crap table.

 

Do you drive? I imagine your do not value your life very much if you drive.

 

Appears you are afraid of many things including death. Enjoy the life in bed.

[buggins0402]

A nicer gesture, as Wripro has suggested, is to cancel the ports before final payment is due. Passengers then have an option.

 

If it were only so easy to do that and still run a profitable cruise line. Itineraries must be set well in advance to sell out a ship. If someone wants to book a "hot spot" cruise, why should the cruise line be the only party carrying the financial risk?

[PaulMCO]

Its about values....you value Egypt so highly that you'd be willing to die there, and willingly give up youre entire future potential. That's pretty powerful.

 

Me, Egypt is a curiosity, nothing more and noting to risk anything over.

There are many things in this world I want to still see and do that I just plain don't want to risk them ALL for one thing that might preclude dozens of others or my entire future. The benefit does not, for me justify the risk.

 

Now, fellow travelers...how much do you value a place. Like going to Las vegas.... and willingly feel comfortable with laying down your entire life savings on a crap table.

 

Definitely disagree. You are more likely to die in a mugging in NYC, DC or Baltimore than in a terrorist incident in any country in the Middle East.

[globevest]

+1 PaulMCO

[hypercafe]

I live in NYC and must say I feel safer walking the streets here than I would walking around Cairo

 

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Edited June 14, 2015 by hypercafe

[Hawaiidan]

I like the way you think!

 

 

 

Egypt is not Las Vegas, that latter place being somewhere I have no interest in seeing. But the Pyramids and the great temples of the pharoahs is something I have always wanted to see.

 

I would prefer not to die there, and I wouldn't go if I *knew* the danger level was high, but from what I've heard, it's not. But future potential? I'm in my late sixties, my expectations of the future are fairly low, except perhaps to travel 'til I drop. I fully expect to be reporting back in early November and saying, "go to Egypt now!"

 

Egypt, is exactly like Las Vegas gambling....safety in Egypt is exactly that..a gamble and like Vegas, the odds are stacked against you from the get-go. Your entering that game with 3 strikes against you North American, Non Muslim(infidel), NonArab.

Im in my late 60's but my expectations for the future are very high...I have lots of wants and desires. Seeing Son Don in Cambodia, Rafting the Green River, The North Cape of Norway, Guilin River karst, Roi Ra Thailand, Guadelcanal, Palau......and that's for starters..

Maybe your sources say it wonderful and safe.... Mine, tell me its a defacto war zone in the middle of horrific unrest surrounded by insurgents eager to attack tourists for publicity. I have in the 60's the distinct experience of people actively trying to kill me on a daily baisis:I am perhaps more aware and sensitive than some.......I no longer wear rose colored glasses.

Visiting Egypt today is the equal of say me wanting to see Bayeux Normandy on June 5 1944.....the way I see it.

[Hawaiidan]

To address the topic of canceled ports :When one is contemplating travel on a cruise into an area of long term, questionable stability, is it not a shared responsibility between the passenger and the provider?

 

Both take a risk equally that things will potentially, possibly remain un-changed . Both accept the risk knowing full well past history yet with an optimistic gamble that past history will not repeat as it has for the past decade+.

The intent of both parties, to me is clear and to fulfill the original premise of travel.

The Passenger really hopes it will happen and so does the cruise line. However. in the latter the contract/terms clearly states that the passenger accepts the judgment/risk of the trip being altered by situations, weather and acts of God.

No one books a cruise with gun to their head. .its the deliberate choice of a passenger knowing the risks and benefits who makes that decision after weighing all relevant facts and information.

 

The only sure way to hedge ones bet it to book 1week out or less to get the best odds To me, this would apply to any African state,any Mid eastern State and the eastern Black sea region.

 

You pay your money and you take your chances as the saying goes.

[wripro]

According to some people here it would apply to the Staten Island Ferry too!

[BillPizzaiolo]

I live in NYC and must say I feel safer walking the streets here than I would walking around Cairo

 

Sent from my XT1032 using Forums mobile app

 

That is because you are familiar with the City. You know where and when to go to places. When you know a city and are street wise you will never have a problem. It is when you let your guard down and do something foolish or at a foolish time. You know what to wear, how to walk, and how to avoid trouble.

 

I went to school (138th & Convent Ave) all through the Harlem riots. Took the 125th St. Crosstown bus from the Pelham Bay/Lexington Ave Subway station. Never had a bad day then or today in NYC. Yet there are places I wouldn't go alone at the wrong time of day or night. Please don't scare folks into not going to NYC or any other city. There are safe ways to travel. You can't draw attention to yourself and act obviously out of place.

 

 

Always be very observant and respectful when visiting other cultures. Dress like the locals, walk like the locals and hire good guides if you need one. Avoid, white sneakers, white belts, shirts and jackets with logo's that aren't internationally accepted, shorts where long pants are usually worn, obvious bling, too much gold or Rolex's, never hold an iPad over head to take a picture. In other words low key. And soak it all in and enjoy the culture.

 

Right now is the best time to go to the Nile in small groups or river cruises because the crowds are not going. Best of luck in your travels.

[Hawaiidan]

As Bill and Paul have pointed that traveling under the radar so to speaking of 2to3 persons, will avoid a lot of risk that a tour, or a 1000 passenger floating hotel might attract. The importance of "not being seen" is very relevant. Slip in and slipout...will work better for male travelers.

 

I think Pauls comment comes from solo business travel meeting with local business people needs to be considered. There is a control of exposure. and too familiarity breeds complacent actions

 

No way, is NY more at risk than the Mid-East.....the reports of violence over there are played down and or, never appear in western news....alone has to do is read the state dept intel reports to grasp how big the problem is... Like in NY they don't advise visitors to travel different routes everyday, travel by day only and in a convoy......come on and you don't have street gangs openly targeting visitors because of their religion !!!

[PaulMCO]

I live in NYC and must say I feel safer walking the streets here than I would walking around Cairo

 

Sent from my XT1032 using Forums mobile app

 

As a former New Yorker and Marylander and frequent ME visitor -- I feel safer in the ME than in NYC, DC or Baltimore. I would dare someone going alone in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn or South Baltimore at night.

 

Dan -- the violence is not played down in the papers. In fact the papers use the punishment for crimes as a deterrent. In KSA they publicly whip and execute - that is not playing it down. Doing business in the region and having local and ex-pat customers -- they tell me the exact situation. When it is not safe they tell me to leave or not come and that has been only a few times.

 

I doubt that Israel is much safer than Egypt and I feel safer in Jordan than in some parts of Israel.

 

Complacent No -- Careful - Yes.

 

If you check crime stats -- the US has a higher violent crime rate than most any country. Many ports that Oceania travels to have higher crime rates than Egypt. This includes BWI, Madagascar, Russia, Barbados, etc.

 

Regarding the cancelling of ports - I do think "O" owes it to their clients to do cancellations as early as possible and not wait 60 days before embarkation to make these known. The situation and risk for our cruise in March will NOT improve. So should not O cancel the stop now and not wait to after the final payment to cancel and say it is not safe?? I am betting like in the past they will do this at the last minute.

Edited June 14, 2015 by PaulMCO

[BillPizzaiolo]

I am a numbers type person, there were 32,719 traffic deaths in the USA according to recent statistics, 4,735 pedestrian deaths in similar statistics in the USA, firearms killed 32,251 people in recent statistics in the USA. The resent attack in Egypt a few members protecting the people in Luxor were attacked and killed. Do I still drive on some of the most dangerous highways in the USA? Do I go to NYC, the Bronx, Harlem, Newark, Trenton, Patterson, Camden NJ Lakewood, & Asbury Park? You bet. You have to live and enjoy life. You can't hole up in the Pine Barrens or rural Montana or North Dakota.

[JPR]

Israel is FAR safer than Egypt. I can't believe you would even compare the two countries in that respect. Mind-boggling.

[PaulMCO]

Israel is FAR safer than Egypt. I can't believe you would even compare the two countries in that respect. Mind-boggling.

 

Depends when and where you are. I have been there when rockets from Hamas flew over and during the last intifada suicide bombers hit a bar that ex-pats frequent near my hotel.

 

O cancelled port calls in the south and moved them all to Haifa.

Edited June 24, 2015 by PaulMCO

[Balloon Man]

Egypt, is exactly like Las Vegas gambling....safety in Egypt is exactly that..a gamble and like Vegas, the odds are stacked against you from the get-go. Your entering that game with 3 strikes against you North American, Non Muslim(infidel), NonArab.

Im in my late 60's but my expectations for the future are very high...I have lots of wants and desires. Seeing Son Don in Cambodia, Rafting the Green River, The North Cape of Norway, Guilin River karst, Roi Ra Thailand, Guadelcanal, Palau......and that's for starters..

Maybe your sources say it wonderful and safe.... Mine, tell me its a defacto war zone in the middle of horrific unrest surrounded by insurgents eager to attack tourists for publicity. I have in the 60's the distinct experience of people actively trying to kill me on a daily baisis:I am perhaps more aware and sensitive than some.......I no longer wear rose colored glasses.

Visiting Egypt today is the equal of say me wanting to see Bayeux Normandy on June 5 1944.....the way I see it.

 

I'm sorry to say this having read many of your more reasonable posts over the years, but I think this Western idealism based racist posting should have been removed. That's the way I see it.

 

From a European perspective I could suggest tourists shouldn't visit the United States because everybody caries guns and they are quite happy to regularly shoot school children, older students, police officers, black people ... Presidents. Though I have to admit I don't remember tourists being targeted.

 

Yours views about cruising are usually erudite and welcome. This time I think you have let yourself down. The way you see Egypt and Israel is not the way I have seen those countries having been there within the last 18 months. When did you get first hand experience? Oh sorry, you rely on your source who says it's a "de-facto war zone".

 

I suggest that Cruise Critic shouldn't publish denunciations of any cruise / country based on third-party innuendo.