Anthem of the seas is headed back to Cape Liberty now due to a storm

[Merion_Mom]

And so are you.;) Oh Carol...we really do need to cruise together again. And have a drink or two...or three...and chat :D. We're on Liberty out of Galveston on May 8. We're driving. We can pick you up at the airport...I'll officially induct you into the Sisterhood of the Swizzlestick and present you the official earrings...how can you resist that?:)

Judy

 

1. I promised my daughter that I would stay home now until the wedding in July.

 

2. I booked a cruise on the Empress anyway, and that's when I'll be on her!

 

Drop me an email. I'll share my cruise list (starting in September ;)) with you!

[champagne123]

I am watching the webcam right now. Does anyone know what time she is due in? The media is at the dock again. (ABC news is showing it right now). Oh...they just said 6am. Should be interesting to see what all of the people departing the ship say....or how many people kiss the ground or genuflect in front of the camera's. :D

[Ontario Cruiser]

We are just docking now. It is raining Hope we aren't had up by customs and CDC

Our flight to Toronto is at 12;45 Ontario Cruiser

[champagne123]

We are just docking now. It is raining Hope we aren't had up by customs and CDC

Our flight to Toronto is at 12;45 Ontario Cruiser

 

Watching you on TV right now. Media is there. Are you doing the walk off at 6:30? What airport are you flying out of?

[ducklite]

The CDC disagrees with you! Health Care Facilities and Nursing Homes are right up there with Schools at the top of the list as the 3 places where the Norwalk Virus is the most prevalent and spreads like wildfire. (I am a personal living testament to the CDC's list of worst environments for Noro. My first case of Noro I got when I was a school principal. My second was many years later and I was a patient in a hospital. So I disagree with you too.:o)

 

 

 

Noro spreads very well in any environment where there are a lot of people. This we do know since 20 million Americans come down with it every year.

 

 

 

Hand sanitizers are pretty effective against bacteria. Viruses? Not so much! I think I would not want to be treated in a hospital where they didn't use soap and water and relied only on hand sanitizer.:eek:

 

Judy

 

 

Agree. My mother lives in assisted living and Noro went through the place like wildfire a few weeks ago. A handful of residents became ill enough that they were hospitalized.

[ducklite]

The gel hand sanitizer doesn't kill noro virus.

 

 

For the most part I agree. However there are sanitizers made which are carried by first responders and sometimes used in hospitals which in addition to being anti-bacterial will also kill viruses--including HIV, Noro, and Hep--on contact. The contact is minimum 10 seconds, and you don't use a little squeeze, you keep your hands soaked for 10 seconds. Also they don't dry quickly, they pretty much need to be wiped off.

 

The best way to prevent Noro is for everyone to wash hands--paying attention to under nails as well, for a full sixty seconds after using a bathroom. People who don't should be shamed into doing so by fellow human beings. I regularly call out women who try to leave a public restroom without washing by asking them if they are "forgetting something" as they walk out of a stall and past the sinks to the door. If more did the same we would probably cut communicable disease in half. I would rather get a dirty look from a pig than Noro or Hep C or some other lovely disease that is carried by fecal contamination.

[Ontario Cruiser]

Watching you on TV right now. Media is there. Are you doing the walk off at 6:30? What airport are you flying out of?

 

No doing the ship transfer and flying out of EWR Ontario Cruiser

[Clarea]

We are just docking now. It is raining Hope we aren't had up by customs and CDC

Our flight to Toronto is at 12;45 Ontario Cruiser

Welcome back.:)

[chengkp75]

So can your average consumer buy any of these on this list? What can we get to help take additional precautions (besides washing hands)?

 

No, which is why I would think that if the manufacturer's claims held up to scrutiny, they would be tripping over themselves to get a consumer product registered.

 

Wash hands. Avoid eating with your hands (cut that burger up).

[chengkp75]

Well I am glad to surprise you. I spent 15 yrs of my toxicology career helping companies get EPA registrations for various pesticides but paqrticularly antimicrobial agents. Efficacy testing is SPECIFICALLY required for ALL antimicrobial products that claim to kill bacteria, fungi , viruses and other infectious organisms.

Your EPA link is appreciated but most people are not familiar with EPA registrations and I posted a more user friendly list that also listed WHERE to buy some of these products.

 

Thank you for your addition which are for ACTIVE INGREDIENTS registered with EPA for use as hard surface sanitizers/disinfectants and not for hand sanitation per se. Continue to be surprised every day that you may actually meet people who know more than you do.

 

BTW: "Regulation of Hand Sanitizers by FDA. Hand sanitizers are regulated in the USA by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as drugs."

https://www.google.com/search?q=Which+agency+regulates+hand+sanitizers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

 

Always glad to learn. Using your link, I found another article that discusses the hand sanitizer categories that the FDA uses, categories I, II, and III. Category I is considered to be "GRASE" (Generally Recognized As Safe and Effective), and the only hand sanitizer ingredient the FDA recognizes in this category is "alcohol 60-95%", which has been shown to be ineffective against norovirus. (the list covers bacteria, viruses, and fungi, so ingredients may be GRASE for one and not the other).

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiRzoay9qHLAhVC8j4KHc1iBhsQFghNMAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com%2Fregulatory%2Fregion%2Fnorthamerica%2F60657047.html&usg=AFQjCNG9vBvQ3oJNPp6rp3sJiJ9y1r12GQ

 

Many manufacturer's claims are for benzethonium chloride as an active ingredient, and here is what the FDA says:

 

Triclosan, triclocarban, benzalkonium chloride, benzethonium chloride and parachlorometaxylenol, all potential active ingredients for skin disinfectants, are placed into Category III because the FDA has concluded that each lacked either safety or efficacy data sufficient for GRASE classification in hand sanitizers.

 

But your expertise would be appreciated in finding ingredients that are GRASE for norovirus in hand sanitizers.

[chengkp75]

Actually, as I suspect you know, it's far more complicated than that. Alcohol based sanitizer are regulated by the FDA as "Generally Regarded As Safe and Effective", or GRASE, based on data that they lower the overall microbial load on the skin.

 

Zylast, in particular, received an FDA warning letter last year for marketing the lotion as specifically reducing the risk of norovirus, which would make it a "drug". You are quite correct (sorry Chief) that products applied to the skin are regulated by the FDA, not EPA. But that doesn't necessarily make them a "drug" under the Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act.

 

Although, I think you'll agree that if the active ingredient isn't effective on a solid surface, it's unlikely to be effective on skin. Conversely, if it's effective on a solid surface, it could still be toxic to skin.

 

BTW, pretty much everything on your link that claims to reduce the risk of noro would require an NDA as a drug. It doesn't sound like any of them have one.

 

As noted, I stand corrected, but as you say, the FDA does not recognize any hand sanitizer ingredient as GRASE except alcohol. And I would be interested in the ingredients used in the "first responder" gel mentioned by ducklite, as it seems that since the gel doesn't dry, and needs to be wiped off, that it is more along the lines of soap, which as a lubricant (it doesn't kill anything) simply loosens the microbes from the skin. I've always said that using hand sanitizers and then wiping it off with a paper towel or napkin would do much as soap does.

[xpcdoojk]

I think I'm rather glad that I have not had any interest in sailing on this ship.

 

OB, come join us in September. What could go wrong in hurricane season?

 

JC

[S&Slovecruises]

Washing hands thoroughly as you suggest is extremely important as the hand sanitizer they use on ship is typically Purell which most likely does very little for Norovirus on unwashed hands according to the internet refs.

 

My brief internet research showed that there ARE at least 3 hand sanitizers that DO KILL Norovirus. Maybe the cruise lines should also do the same quick research and find out if they are using effective or ineffective hand sanitizers. I now realize that before our next cruise I will invest a few bucks into these more effective sanitizers and use them instead of that sticky Purell junk the cruise lines are stuck on.

 

Here is a link for effective hand sanitizers for those interested:

 

http://www.stopthestomachflu.com/Home/which-hand-sanitizers-kill-stomach-flu-viruses

 

Thanks for the information. I just ordered some from Amazon for our March cruise.

[Ocean Boy]

OB, come join us in September. What could go wrong in hurricane season?

 

JC

 

Hmmm...:eek::eek:

 

Falls never works out for me. I'm the high school football doc and I live on the sideline those 3-4 months of the year.

[OBX-Cruisers]

Always glad to learn. Using your link, I found another article that discusses the hand sanitizer categories that the FDA uses, categories I, II, and III. Category I is considered to be "GRASE" (Generally Recognized As Safe and Effective), and the only hand sanitizer ingredient the FDA recognizes in this category is "alcohol 60-95%", which has been shown to be ineffective against norovirus. (the list covers bacteria, viruses, and fungi, so ingredients may be GRASE for one and not the other).

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiRzoay9qHLAhVC8j4KHc1iBhsQFghNMAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com%2Fregulatory%2Fregion%2Fnorthamerica%2F60657047.html&usg=AFQjCNG9vBvQ3oJNPp6rp3sJiJ9y1r12GQ

 

Many manufacturer's claims are for benzethonium chloride as an active ingredient, and here is what the FDA says:

 

Triclosan, triclocarban, benzalkonium chloride, benzethonium chloride and parachlorometaxylenol, all potential active ingredients for skin disinfectants, are placed into Category III because the FDA has concluded that each lacked either safety or efficacy data sufficient for GRASE classification in hand sanitizers.

 

But your expertise would be appreciated in finding ingredients that are GRASE for norovirus in hand sanitizers.

 

I think you meant to say GRAS.........."Generally Recognized as Safe"

 

If that is what you meant, this is an FDA process used for ingredients added to food and that process would not apply to hand sanitizers that FDA considers as over the counter OTC drugs like many of the things you buy at the big box stores etc.

Edited March 2, 2016 by OBX-Cruisers

[Formula280SS]

Maybe your family and friends haven't been keeping up with the most recently released facts. For example, the Coast Guard/NTSB report on the Captain's actions during the storm on the 2/6/16 cruise just came out a couple of days ago. The report commended the actions of Captain Claus Andersen during the storm. He'll be returning to the ship tomorrow.

 

And the CDC has Anthem's Norovirus report online now for the current cruise. You can look at it just like I did. So can your family and friends.

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/outbreak/2016/february21_anthem_of_seas.htm 141 people (125 passengers and 16 crew) have become ill with Norovirus on this cruise. (There are approx. 6000 total people aboard.) The CDC report lists all the sanitizing procedures and VSP protocols that are in place right now aboard Anthem to control the outbreak.

 

When a ship hits a storm that's much worse than expected, and the Captain does everything within his power to bring the ship and passengers to safety, only 4 people out of 6000 suffered minor injuries, and he is praised by the US Coast Guard and the NTSB for his actions, most people would look at that as a commendable victory. When the paying customers bring Noro aboard, and Royal Caribbean (just like ANY cruise line) follows proper sanitizing procedures to contain the outbreak, most people would look at that as an appropriate response to a problem.

 

If your family and friends see things differently despite the data, I guess you can choose to defy them and go on your cruise anyway, no matter what they urge you to do, and suffer their conclusion that you are crazy. Or you can accede to their advice, cancel your cruise, and stay home. Good luck with your decision, and if you decide to go ahead and defy their criticism and take your cruise, I hope it's an absolutely fantastic cruise!:)

Judy

 

Great summary; of both the ship, captain and last storm and the current 'noro.

 

It's human nature (actually a weakness in such IMO) to let the mind run off in an uninformed panic either by itself or with the input from others equally uninformed. So, instead of becoming informed (by credible sources such as those you cited; i.e. getting the facts), they panic; others actually spread the panic and yet others use such situations (opportunities) to taunt or taint a particular cruise line, ship or even another CC member.

 

It is what it is.

 

President John Adams:

 

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

 

Will be on the Anthem on 25 days.

 

Looking forward to it.

[cruisenfever]

I think you meant to say GRAS.........."Generally Recognized as Safe"

 

If that is what you meant, this is an FDA process used for ingredients added to food and that process would not apply to hand sanitizers that FDA considers as over the counter OTC drugs like many of the things you buy at the big box stores etc.

No he meant GRASE........"Generally Recognized as Safe and Effective".

[chengkp75]

I think you meant to say GRAS.........."Generally Recognized as Safe"

 

If that is what you meant, this is an FDA process used for ingredients added to food and that process would not apply to hand sanitizers that FDA considers as over the counter OTC drugs like many of the things you buy at the big box stores etc.

 

I'm a relative neophyte to this as far as the FDA is concerned, but from what I see, they use GRAS for food ingredients, and GRASE for drugs.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjl18KDiqLLAhUGWD4KHVQDBhoQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessdata.fda.gov%2Fscripts%2Fcder%2Ftraining%2FOTC%2Ftopic3%2Ftopic3%2Fda_01_03_0040.htm&usg=AFQjCNHInFklg--Bg9yvnOmbJt3Y_jJFVg

 

As noted in my post, and the link I gave to a cosmetics website, it discusses the fact that the FDA does use the term GRASE when classifying a hand sanitizer. They fall under the "1994 Tentative Final Monograph" of OTC drug product ingredients.

 

According to that link:

 

The 1994 TFM lists topical antimicrobial ingredients based on scientific data submitted to an advisory review panel to determine their safety and efficacy. The ingredients were placed into 1 of 3 categories:

 

• Category I: GRASE (generally recognized as safe and effective)

• Category II: not GRASE

• Category III: cannot determine if safe and effective; more data needed

 

- See more at: http://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/regulatory/region/northamerica/60657047.html#sthash.BT9vrLJq.dpuf

 

I could be wrong, but that is the way I see it.

[OBX-Cruisers]

No he meant GRASE........"Generally Recognized as Safe and Effective".

 

Unless this is a very new definition I am not aware of it.

As my work with pesticides decreased, I began to work more and more with GRAS reviews and submission to FDA. What I am about to say is based on over 10 years of experience and it floored me at first like it will you when I say:

 

Efficacy ("effectiveness" in your sentence) is NOT, I repeat NOT a part of a GRAS determination or a determination of GRAS by the applicant or FDA. Efficacy is secondary and incidental.

 

GRAS reviews are based on SAFETY and those are the sections of these submissions I worked on as part of my toxicology background; but I always threw in a little efficacy information that was typically relegated to an attachment or deep within the document, somewhere.

 

 

I told you that you would not believe what I was going to say but it floored me too and it is true. Sounds dumb and I agree that it should be both and maybe there is a new GRASE category now that I am not aware of as I retired from this rat race last year.

 

Now my wife a nutritionist/epidemiologist and I just cruise and enjoy not thinking about a lot of these weird government regulations

 

BTW: Has the Anthem docked yet????????????

Edited March 2, 2016 by OBX-Cruisers

[wovenwonder]

Well I am glad to surprise you. I spent 15 yrs of my toxicology career helping companies get EPA registrations for various pesticides but paqrticularly antimicrobial agents. Efficacy testing is SPECIFICALLY required for ALL antimicrobial products that claim to kill bacteria, fungi , viruses and other infectious organisms.

Your EPA link is appreciated but most people are not familiar with EPA registrations and I posted a more user friendly list that also listed WHERE to buy some of these products.

 

Thank you for your addition which are for ACTIVE INGREDIENTS registered with EPA for use as hard surface sanitizers/disinfectants and not for hand sanitation per se. Continue to be surprised every day that you may actually meet people who know more than you do.

 

BTW: "Regulation of Hand Sanitizers by FDA. Hand sanitizers are regulated in the USA by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as drugs."

https://www.google.com/search?q=Which+agency+regulates+hand+sanitizers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

 

What about Hibiclens Antimicrobial Skin Liquid Soap?

http://amzn.to/1ShNs3q

 

We leave on Friday's sailing and I don't have time to order any of the products you listed but I DO have some Hibiclens on hand. Thinking of putting it in a small bottle for my purse and use this instead of soap to wash my hands during the day. Thoughts?

[cruisenfever]

 

BTW: Has the Anthem docked yet????????????

Yes You can see her here http://nyharborwebcam.com/

[bobbie0253]

The best and most effective method not to get sick onboard is still to wash your hands well with soap followed by rinsing with plenty of water to wash the germs, bacteria and viruses down the drain. The following, which I posted on our Anthem after yours roll call, is what we are planning to do in the WJ Marketplace where IMO is one of the worst areas to catch something like Norovirus.

Also one should first apply the liquid soap to their hands and rub their hands together to spread it over all of their hand's surface before rinsing them well with water. I see a lots of folks apply the soap and immediately start rinsing while rubbing their hands which isn't as effective. The idea is to get the soap which is a surfactant (surface active agent) in contact with what is to be removed physically and it will emulsify or suspend that material in the water so it can be easily carried away by the rinse water.

 

Actually on Quantum class ships with their WJ entry wash stations one could easily get their food and then wash their hands again before eating. Just ensure you only hold your plate with one hand only and serve yourself with the other hand in order not to contaminate the plate by changing hands. Set your plate down at your table and wash your hands a second time. Also use your napkin or plate to place your cutlery on.

 

Thank you. We are cruising with our two year old though. So it's going to be a little hard to be as germ conscious as would could be otherwise. Toddlers touch and mouth EVERYTHING

[OBX-Cruisers]

What about Hibiclens Antimicrobial Skin Liquid Soap?

http://amzn.to/1ShNs3q

 

We leave on Friday's sailing and I don't have time to order any of the products you listed but I DO have some Hibiclens on hand. Thinking of putting it in a small bottle for my purse and use this instead of soap to wash my hands during the day. Thoughts?

 

As others on this thread have commented already, a product designed to reduce bacteria, as Hibiclens seems to be, may do nothing for viruses, especially Norovirus that is a tough bug to kill.

The Hibiclens website says nothing about viruses and only talks about bacteria.

http://www.hibiclens.com/retail/s/faqs

 

The EPA website that was mentioned by Cheng....lists hydrogen peroxide as a hard surface cleaner.........and I have looked at the wipes on various ships and those generally contain "activated" hydrogen peroxide..which may just be HP with some added detergent from what I have read....When I am wiping down the keyboards etc. in the computer lounges........I often use those same wipes FIRST on my hands...........not recommending this "off label" use.........but I am cheap and hydrogen peroxide is hydrogen peroxide in my world.

 

Look for hand wipes in the drug stores that contain hydrogen peroxide which is known to be reasonably effective for norovirus.......but the devil here is that even for surfaces there is a "residence time" to achieve that effectiveness and NOTHING will substitute for hand washing and very careful attention to not putting your fingers on your food or in your mouth.

Go to the good description earlier in this thread by robstulipe............that is good stuff to read and do religiously.....I agree with him/her on all of the details in that post and even if you do everything possible..............there is that chance in the WJ that someone else did not. That is why my wife much prefers the MDR.

Interesting on our last HAL cruise that most items in the Lido are now served to you rather than self serve. I didn't think I would like it but worked out fine on our 16 day TA.

Edited March 2, 2016 by OBX-Cruisers

[foxgoodrich]

Great summary; of both the ship, captain and last storm and the current 'noro.

 

It's human nature (actually a weakness in such IMO) to let the mind run off in an uninformed panic either by itself or with the input from others equally uninformed. So, instead of becoming informed (by credible sources such as those you cited; i.e. getting the facts), they panic; others actually spread the panic and yet others use such situations (opportunities) to taunt or taint a particular cruise line, ship or even another CC member.

It is what it is.

Will be on the Anthem on 25 days.

Looking forward to it.

 

You're quite right about human nature (human weakness), I think. We all experience that initial panic reaction a times, and we certainly see the behavior you described here on the boards.

 

I'm glad you're not stressing about your cruise in 25 days - I hope you have a fantastic time!

 

Judy

[IA&NJ2TX]

What effect will this have on the March 27th cruise?