It's Called Hygiene

[OlsSalt]

Wow, I guess at this point we just wash our hands constantly and hope for the best!

I don't use the stuff every day, just when going out to a grocery store or the like right now. And no real need in the summer, I have just used it during flu season and will take a small bottle on the ship. Just thought it might be a small "help". I have heard folks say they used it on cruises and did not get sick with norovirus. Maybe they were just "lucky". Who knows????

I do know that regular hand sanitizers are not worth much. Hand washing is...and we do that very often.

 

Step one is good hand washing. Then hopefully start making the connection between what they then touch, as well as this primary step of washing their hands. Which may not require "constant hand washing and hope".

 

Case in point: DH was a med student and one day the instructor handed out sheet of paper to the class which they took with their hands. Then after the class was over they shined an ultra-violet lamp on the classmates who were contaminated with glow in the dark streaks all over their faces - eyes ,noses and ears.

 

The paper handout obviously had a powder that transferred to their hands. The rest of the cross-contamination was all self-inflicted by the students themselves, after having touched that hand out sheet.

 

Yes, the lesson that day was about proper sanitation protocols. Start thinking of your finger tips as hypodermic syringes and keep them away from anything you don't want contaminated. Hand-washing is only step one in this process. And just be aware; not paranoid. Remember eating dirt, coming through the birth canal, breast feeding and even the milkmaid's complexion are benefits of getting a few bugs in your system to keep your immune system up to snuff.

 

The body does have a very evolved immune system for the most part, it will scavenge the smaller amounts of bad bugs, which is why sheer mechanical debridement - get rid of the bad things by soap and water - remains the best line of defense. If you can't reduce the bug contacts, at least reduce the volume of them that might come your way. The love warm, dark, moist areas of the body which is why eyes, nose and mouth are so vulnerable to inadvertent contact.

[cbr663]

I am really starting to agree. Since I heard that tale about the sour cream spoon, and the pepperoni pilfering, I am kind of spooked. Don't know if I will ever trust that kind of situation again........trying to deal with it/get over it.

I am sure it will be okay, I hope it was an isolated incident, not the norm.! :eek:

 

I am hopeful that it was an isolated incident. Why take the chance though? There is plenty of good food on a cruise ship that is not left out uncovered. On HAL, you can always order room service rather than partake in the uncovered self serve options.

[cbr663]

What I appreciated on the Koningsdam was that the hand sanitizer stations have been replaced by hand washing stations. You put your hands in the tubes for maybe a minute to have them washed before you get your food. Now to get people to use them.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

(y)(y) Those are wonderful, aren't they? So much better than sticky, smelly hand sanitizer.

[navybankerteacher]

 

...

 

If you can't reduce the bug contacts, at least reduce the volume of them that might come your way. The love warm, dark, moist areas of the body which is why eyes, nose and mouth are so vulnerable to inadvertent contact.

 

It isn't so much the "...warm, dark, moist areas..." which are loved by the "bug contacts"; it is the fact that the holes in your face- your eyes, nose and mouth - give access to your insides. Your intact skin does a good job of protecting you - it is when the "bug contacts" can slip inside that they can go to work on you.

[OlsSalt]

This is an interesting reaction to the possible over-use and limited effectiveness of hand sanitizes. Sure, they are not the best - but they certainly do help. Also, wouldn't plain wipes merely rearrange whatever is on your hands? It is the sanitizer on the wipes which gives them much of their effectiveness.

 

Do they help really? They are mainly effective in alcohol concentrations of 70% or higher and mainly against bacteria. Most ship borne infections are viral and they are not very effective at all against viruses. At best they offer mechanical debridement only, which is why they are recommended when there are no other hand washing options. But you are not using them for any special anti-viral properties - just reducing the bulk of possible contaminants. This too is part of the common sense about the chain of contamination.

 

However, think about also if your hands or finger tips are even going to come close to contaminating yourself - if you are planning on eating primarily with knife, fork and spoon to handle what goes into your mouth. If you are directly handling food - bread, sandwiches french fries, pizza, nachos, etc - best to still find a place to wash your hands. But most other food items will be kept from direct contamination by dirty hands by use of chop sticks or utensils.

 

Far better to reach a contamination awareness based upon facts, than engaging in procedures that offer a more unfounded sense of protection which may ultimately cause one to ignore the actual routes of infection where we do have a better sense of control.

[Ken the cruiser]

I found it quite interesting that aboard NCL ships, there are crew members at every entrance to the Garden Cafe (Lido) with spray bottles of hand sanitizer. You can not pass without having your hands sprayed. Its the same concept when you board the ship. There are sanitizer stations all over the ship. Just a observation on the topic of hygiene;)

My kind of guy!

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

Step one is good hand washing. Then hopefully start making the connection between what they then touch, as well as this primary step of washing their hands. Which may not require "constant hand washing and hope".

 

Case in point: DH was a med student and one day the instructor handed out sheet of paper to the class which they took with their hands. Then after the class was over they shined an ultra-violet lamp on the classmates who were contaminated with glow in the dark streaks all over their faces - eyes ,noses and ears.

 

The paper handout obviously had a powder that transferred to their hands. The rest of the cross-contamination was all self-inflicted by the students themselves, after having touched that hand out sheet.

 

Yes, the lesson that day was about proper sanitation protocols. Start thinking of your finger tips as hypodermic syringes and keep them away from anything you don't want contaminated. Hand-washing is only step one in this process. And just be aware; not paranoid. Remember eating dirt, coming through the birth canal, breast feeding and even the milkmaid's complexion are benefits of getting a few bugs in your system to keep your immune system up to snuff.

 

The body does have a very evolved immune system for the most part, it will scavenge the smaller amounts of bad bugs, which is why sheer mechanical debridement - get rid of the bad things by soap and water - remains the best line of defense. If you can't reduce the bug contacts, at least reduce the volume of them that might come your way. The love warm, dark, moist areas of the body which is why eyes, nose and mouth are so vulnerable to inadvertent contact.

Thanks for the info and your explanation/example. We can all appreciate a new perspective on a "buggy" problem on ships :)

[igraf]

I eat at a lot of buffets and have learned to serve myself with my right hand and touch my food (like bread) with my left hand. I have also learned to go early rather than later in a given meal period.

 

igraf

 

 

 

Do you wash your hands after you serve yourself? After you have used the tongs? Many people don't! I've seen people sneeze into their hands and pick up a ladle or tong right after it. Thanks but no thanks! Much rather the Crew member serve it for me!...

[Vict0riann]

I have ordered some Zoono!

 

I also wanted to mention that there was an article in the paper here the other day that said the highest amount of contamination found by some researchers was on the screens of the self-check-in kiosks in airports. So I have warned DH that as soon as he can after check-in, he is to go to a loo and wash his hands thoroughly. I realize that may be the reason he always gets sick a few days into a holiday, as he is the one to do all the self-check-in stuff! (Then he usually, very generously hands it on to me!)

 

(The second highest contamination count was on the buckles of the seatbelt...)

 

We always do the wipes, or if there is just the liquid, I wipe off what I can on my clothing or a clean tissue.

[OlsSalt]

I have ordered some Zoono!

 

I also wanted to mention that there was an article in the paper here the other day that said the highest amount of contamination found by some researchers was on the screens of the self-check-in kiosks in airports. So I have warned DH that as soon as he can after check-in, he is to go to a loo and wash his hands thoroughly. I realize that may be the reason he always gets sick a few days into a holiday, as he is the one to do all the self-check-in stuff! (Then he usually, very generously hands it on to me!)

 

(The second highest contamination count was on the buckles of the seatbelt...)

 

We always do the wipes, or if there is just the liquid, I wipe off what I can on my clothing or a clean tissue.

 

CDC: NON-ALCOHOL BASED HAND SANITIZERS - NOT RECOMMENDED

What about alcohol-free sanitizers?

 

 

Instead of alcohol, some hand sanitizers contain quaternary ammonium compounds (notably benzalkonium chloride or benzethonium chloride) to reduce microbes. These agents are less effective than alcohol, plus they lack evidence of real-life benefits.

Moreover, they may be contributing to bacterial resistance (see inset). Other alcohol-free hand sanitizers contain “natural” ingredients like tea tree oil and thyme, which may kill some germs but not enough for them to be good alternatives to an alcohol-based hand sanitizer.

The CDC recommends only alcohol-based products.

[Cruising-along]

I have ordered some Zoono!

 

I also wanted to mention that there was an article in the paper here the other day that said the highest amount of contamination found by some researchers was on the screens of the self-check-in kiosks in airports. So I have warned DH that as soon as he can after check-in, he is to go to a loo and wash his hands thoroughly. I realize that may be the reason he always gets sick a few days into a holiday, as he is the one to do all the self-check-in stuff! (Then he usually, very generously hands it on to me!)

 

(The second highest contamination count was on the buckles of the seatbelt...)

 

We always do the wipes, or if there is just the liquid, I wipe off what I can on my clothing or a clean tissue.

 

What really amazes me is that our medical clinic here has gone to those self-check-in kiosks. They do have sanitizing wipes nearby, but how many people are going to use them? I always use my knuckles on any of those kiosks (that and elevators, etc.)

[baggal]

I just went to the supermarket this morning One of the guys behind the deli counter was coughing into the crook of his elbow so I quickly moved away. No cold cuts for us today. This supermarket has an extensive salad bar and I contemplated putting a salad together but then I saw some people using the tongs and began to wonder about THEIR cleanliness. OK, I'll buy a bagged salad and throw in some canned tuna from my pantry when I get home. But the "produce guy" working near the bagged salads was coughing too. And we all know those cart handles are filthy anyway. I concluded that my supermarket is currently a breeding ground for "who knows what." I'm looking forward to my cruise in 12 days. With proper precautions, I hope I'll be safer than in my local supermarket.

 

P.S. I did not report all the sick workers to the manager. I don't want to be responsible, potentially, for someone to lose a day's pay.

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

I have ordered some Zoono! .

 

After what I have read on here I don't think I would use it on a daily basis, but occasionally (like on a cruise) I don't see where it would hurt in addition to proper hand washing, keeping your hands away from your head/face, and the occasional dab of alcohol hand sanitizer like Purell. If it was poisonous, or extremely harmful, it would not be sold by Amazon or anyone else for that matter in the US. If it is deemed dangerous/not recommended in the future, I am sure the CDC or another government agency will pull it from the shelves. Just my opinion, of course.

[OlsSalt]

After what I have read on here I don't think I would use it on a daily basis, but occasionally (like on a cruise) I don't see where it would hurt in addition to proper hand washing, keeping your hands away from your head/face, and the occasional dab of alcohol hand sanitizer like Purell. If it was poisonous, or extremely harmful, it would not be sold by Amazon or anyone else for that matter in the US. If it is deemed dangerous/not recommended in the future, I am sure the CDC or another government agency will pull it from the shelves. Just my opinion, of course.

 

It could be when this product is sold in the US it does not contain the "24 hour protection" ingredient benzalkonium, but is just one more alcohol-based hand sanitizer. Can someone provide the list of ingredients in the Amazon version sold in the US?

And you need far more than a "dab" if you are going to use any 70% or higher alcohol based sanitizer, along with understanding what it does kill and even more importantly what it does not kill.

 

People may assume "sanitation" is the equivalent of "sterilization". But they are two totally different levels of micro-organizm management. Plus there is disinfection as a third layer inbetween.

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

It says on the bottle Active Ingredient: Benzalkonium Chloride 0.13%, Inactive: Ethyl Alcohol, Fragrances, Silica Complex-3(Trimethoxysilyl) Propyl Dimethyl Octadecyl, Ammonium Chloride, Water. Distributed by Zoono USA, Shrewsbury, NJ. Formulated by Zoono Limited NZ.

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

RE: Purell I know I need more than a "dab", I just couldn't think of a better way say "apply it as directed"...

[cruisemom42]

It could be when this product is sold in the US it does not contain the "24 hour protection" ingredient benzalkonium, but is just one more alcohol-based hand sanitizer. Can someone provide the list of ingredients in the Amazon version sold in the US?

 

 

 

It's pretty easy to find on Amazon. Benzalkonium chloride is listed as the active ingredient.

[OlsSalt]

It's pretty easy to find on Amazon. Benzalkonium chloride is listed as the active ingredient.

 

The is the ingredient the CDC recommends you do not use as their findings showed the over-growth of resistent pathogens. This is a good example of marketing over-kill. (Irony noted)

 

Caveat Emptor.

[sananda]

Benzalkonium Chloride will be fine if used properly, but is often used insufficiently.

 

IMHO, and for those that are particularly paranoid, I would suggest something with chlorhexidine gluconate (CHG). I have been using it for many years as a surgical scrub. It is anti-microbial, even effective against MRSA, VRE and bacteremias yet gentle enough for daily use with patients who have sensitive skin. Although it doesn't leave a sticky residue, hand washing with CHG leaves a layer of protection that will continue to kill pathogens for up to 24 hours. Repeated use results in a greater cumulative residual effect.

 

It is available from Walgreens and CVS as a liquid soap under the trade name Hibiclens, and also comes in their house brands at a substantial discount. For those that would find carrying along a little bottle of soap and hand washing in a restroom inconvenient, you can find hand wipes on Amazon. Most are marketed towards veterinary medicine, but if you insist on a product marketed to human use there are products from Sage, Vionex and Carenow on page one of a search for chlorhexidine wipes.

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

The is the ingredient the CDC recommends you do not use as their findings showed the over-growth of resistent pathogens. This is a good example of marketing over-kill. (Irony noted)

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

Thanks for passing on to all of us the info/warnings.

But for me, I don't mind using it for occasional use only....like on a cruise ship. Not daily, for sure. JMO.

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

Benzalkonium Chloride will be fine if used properly, but is often used insufficiently.

 

IMHO, and for those that are particularly paranoid, I would suggest something with chlorhexidine gluconate (CHG). I have been using it for many years as a surgical scrub. It is anti-microbial, even effective against MRSA, VRE and bacteremias yet gentle enough for daily use with patients who have sensitive skin. Although it doesn't leave a sticky residue, hand washing with CHG leaves a layer of protection that will continue to kill pathogens for up to 24 hours. Repeated use results in a greater cumulative residual effect.

 

It is available from Walgreens and CVS as a liquid soap under the trade name Hibiclens, and also comes in their house brands at a substantial discount. For those that would find carrying along a little bottle of soap and hand washing in a restroom inconvenient, you can find hand wipes on Amazon. Most are marketed towards veterinary medicine, but if you insist on a product marketed to human use there are products from Sage, Vionex and Carenow on page one of a search for chlorhexidine wipes.

 

Thank you for your opinion and information for all of us out here!

[OlsSalt]

What you need to know about the indisciminate use of Hibclens - clorohexidine - against baterial infections (not viral, like Noro) and the growing issue of MRSA - staph infections https://www.staph-infection-resources.com/blog/chlorhexidine-baths-for-mrsa-decolonization-facts/

 

It looks as if people are still looking for some artificial magic wand in the form of some commercial preparation but avoid totally what basic elements of sanitation are at stake. Good to get all of this flushed out ..so to speak.

[OlsSalt]

For those looking for more fact, than opinions, about hand sanitation - plus its long history - a CDC link:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5116a1.htm

[OlsSalt]

Since this thread has now moved on to preventing staph infections using Hibiclens-chlorohexidine, lets toss in the class action lawsuit dream a few year back about Carnivals flesh-eating bacteria hottubs: Pays to be paranoid, Wonder what happened to those lawsuits: https://www.traveldailynews.com/post/class-action-alleges-flesh-eating-bacteria-lurking-in-cruise-lines%26%2339%3B-hot-tubs-55792

[KroozNut]

I am really starting to agree. Since I heard that tale about the sour cream spoon, and the pepperoni pilfering, I am kind of spooked. Don't know if I will ever trust that kind of situation again........trying to deal with it/get over it.

I am sure it will be okay, I hope it was an isolated incident, not the norm.! :eek:

 

You seem genuinely traumatized by the 'sour cream spoon and pepperoni pilfering' incident descriptions, and I feel for you!. I hope you're able to move past it, as I'm also trying to do. :o