Cancelling P&O auto tips - does this hit P&O in the pocket or the staff?

[Selbourne]

Selbourne I do so agree with your first paragraph. It is my reading of the situation completely.

 

However have reservations about the second because of the situation with freedom dining. If you are on club and withdraw from the auto scheme then fine you can tip the wait staff as you see fit. That does not work with freedom dining. And as I have said on another reply the share a waiter on freedom receives cannot be determined by what people put on their questionnaire as they do not have the same staff every night. So by logic they must all receive an equal share.

 

 

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Dai I get your point completely and you are entirely correct that removal of the service charge is highly problematic when you are on Freedom Dining, as nobody tips every waiter and assistant waiter every meal. That is why we have always paid it.

 

However, I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the only way that we will ever get P&O to resolve this almighty mess is through people power and that if enough people remove it then P&O will have no option but to increase cruise fares so that everyone pays their fair share of the staff costs. I shall tip exceptional service but accept that staff may lose out a little as a result. I am hoping that, as far as the staff are concerned, it will be a case of ‘short term pain, long term gain’.

[daiB]

Dai I get your point completely and you are entirely correct that removal of the service charge is highly problematic when you are on Freedom Dining, as nobody tips every waiter and assistant waiter every meal. That is why we have always paid it.

 

 

 

However, I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the only way that we will ever get P&O to resolve this almighty mess is through people power and that if enough people remove it then P&O will have no option but to increase cruise fares so that everyone pays their fair share of the staff costs. I shall tip exceptional service but accept that staff may lose out a little as a result. I am hoping that, as far as the staff are concerned, it will be a case of ‘short term pain, long term gain’.

 

 

 

The problem is Selbourne that not that many people see it as an almighty mess. Certainly it is not seen in those terms on other forums. It generally boils down to the ridiculous statement that “no one is going to tell me who to tip. I will decide that and it will be the cabin steward and my waiters”. So clearly they have little understanding of the system.

 

Linked to those who just will not pay tips at all, who of course have always been around.

 

I also think it would be better that the tips were added to the price of the cruise but I do not think that a handful of people from this forum are going to make any difference at all.

 

Which is why I have not changed my opinion at all and will continue to leave the auto tips in place.

 

 

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[mickrory]

Cruise lines are getting greedy. For our upcoming Britannia inside cabin they are looking for £196 tips on top of the £2400 we've already paid.

Last summer we stayed in a five star Hotel on the Portuguese Algarve for £650 a week, tips weren't expected.

 

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[nutcasecruiser]

Perhaps a reason that we do not see incontavertable “proof” on both sides of the argument is that pay schedules are considered personal and confidential. Employees are instructed to not reveal any specifics regarding pay to others, especially other employees under the threat of termination and employers are likewise reluctant to discuss specific pay schemes under fear of violating their employee’s right to privacy. I can remember cruising 30 years ago, before AG, when we paid out, at the end of the cruise, specific, minimum, cash gratuities to each specific listed employees. Never touched the cruise lines hands. When the switch was made, there were two reasons presented that I can remember. The first being, the large amounts of cash in employees hands at the end of each cruise made it problematic on two fronts, the criminal and the difficulty and cost of translating cash into a currency that could be sent home or banked by the employee. Employees were targeted for theft and before the advent of electronic transfers, currency exchange and online banking, it was impossible for employees to have access to banking and to exchange the currency and send it home was costly. And, because there was no enforcement of paying gratuities, many people simply did not pay them, shortchanging many employees. As an employee, how would you feel if you busted your ass all week and you’d cabin mate made $100 in tips and you made nothing or significantly less. Switching to cashless, AG had more to do with pay equality, safety and our changing banking climate than it had to do with someone in a bean counting office figuring out how to pad their profits on the backs of gullible cruisers everywhere. Now, does the cruise line with hold some of those gratuities as a service charge, we will never know as the line is never going to divulge that specific information and you would be hard pressed to find an employee who will tell you that for fear of losing their job. What they will do, is work hard for that extra tip, ask for excellent ratings, because, yes, they are rewarded outside of the AG system for excellent reviews and punished, by lack of a bonus, for poor reviews. So, the truth of the matter lies somewhere in between, in a locked away place where secrets never meet the light of day. If you really think AG are a way to pad the line’s profits, go ahead and remove them, but please make sure you do pay each affected employee in cash at least as much as they would get paid had you left on the AG. Removing the AG should not be a way of reducing the cost of your vacation or expressing your displeasure with one or two employees. Do that through the comment system. Me, I do both, pay the AG and tip extra and others that may not participate in my tip pool. I for one like not having to calculate the tip at the end of the cruise, making sure that I have cash in the right amount and then chasing everyone down. So much easier.

 

 

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[Selbourne]

I also think it would be better that the tips were added to the price of the cruise but I do not think that a handful of people from this forum are going to make any difference at all.

 

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The thing is Dai, it’s not just a handful of people from this forum. It’s hundreds per cruise. I know that because on our last cruise the person in front of me at reception was complaining that she had removed her auto gratuities 3 days earlier yet they were still on her account. The exasperated young lady at reception held up a very thick pile of forms and said ‘we’ve still got all of these to process’. That was on a cruise with mostly experienced cruisers. I would suggest that the percentage of opt outs on Cruises with higher proportions of new cruisers is even greater. That was the clincher for me and confirmed my belief that the charge has increased due to the high opt outs.

[picsa]

The thing is Dai, it’s not just a handful of people from this forum. It’s hundreds per cruise. I know that because on our last cruise the person in front of me at reception was complaining that she had removed her auto gratuities 3 days earlier yet they were still on her account. The exasperated young lady at reception held up a very thick pile of forms and said ‘we’ve still got all of these to process’. That was on a cruise with mostly experienced cruisers.

 

That could very well have been me, except it was the wrong gender.

 

Taking three days to process a form is terrible customer service, especially when it is to remove a charge which P&O had no authorisation to take in the first place.

 

If they are getting so many forms, then they should employ extra staff to process them.

[grapau27]

Perhaps a reason that we do not see incontavertable “proof” on both sides of the argument is that pay schedules are considered personal and confidential. Employees are instructed to not reveal any specifics regarding pay to others, especially other employees under the threat of termination and employers are likewise reluctant to discuss specific pay schemes under fear of violating their employee’s right to privacy. I can remember cruising 30 years ago, before AG, when we paid out, at the end of the cruise, specific, minimum, cash gratuities to each specific listed employees. Never touched the cruise lines hands. When the switch was made, there were two reasons presented that I can remember. The first being, the large amounts of cash in employees hands at the end of each cruise made it problematic on two fronts, the criminal and the difficulty and cost of translating cash into a currency that could be sent home or banked by the employee. Employees were targeted for theft and before the advent of electronic transfers, currency exchange and online banking, it was impossible for employees to have access to banking and to exchange the currency and send it home was costly. And, because there was no enforcement of paying gratuities, many people simply did not pay them, shortchanging many employees. As an employee, how would you feel if you busted your ass all week and you’d cabin mate made $100 in tips and you made nothing or significantly less. Switching to cashless, AG had more to do with pay equality, safety and our changing banking climate than it had to do with someone in a bean counting office figuring out how to pad their profits on the backs of gullible cruisers everywhere. Now, does the cruise line with hold some of those gratuities as a service charge, we will never know as the line is never going to divulge that specific information and you would be hard pressed to find an employee who will tell you that for fear of losing their job. What they will do, is work hard for that extra tip, ask for excellent ratings, because, yes, they are rewarded outside of the AG system for excellent reviews and punished, by lack of a bonus, for poor reviews. So, the truth of the matter lies somewhere in between, in a locked away place where secrets never meet the light of day. If you really think AG are a way to pad the line’s profits, go ahead and remove them, but please make sure you do pay each affected employee in cash at least as much as they would get paid had you left on the AG. Removing the AG should not be a way of reducing the cost of your vacation or expressing your displeasure with one or two employees. Do that through the comment system. Me, I do both, pay the AG and tip extra and others that may not participate in my tip pool. I for one like not having to calculate the tip at the end of the cruise, making sure that I have cash in the right amount and then chasing everyone down. So much easier.

 

 

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Very interesting comments.

[grapau27]

That could very well have been me, except it was the wrong gender.

 

Taking three days to process a form is terrible customer service, especially when it is to remove a charge which P&O had no authorisation to take in the first place.

 

If they are getting so many forms, then they should employ extra staff to process them.

Better PR is to add a little extra to the cruise price so everyone contributes to the tip pool and claim ' Tips Included.

[kalos]

A lot of the time where I work I need to put my phone on call divert so Mrs Kalos takes the calls.

 

Yesterday was one of those calls.

 

It was P&O calling ... The first thing the lady said was sorry for the delay on calling us as the service reward letters had snowed them under with complaints and they had upheld our complaint and were investigating it further.

She could see we had paid the service charge at a reduced rate ,which was our right as it is optional.

Mrs Kalos explained to her that we still tip staff in person which far outweighs what we deducted from the service charge, which again was our right to do so.

The P&O lady agreed we had done nothing wrong and asked would we be happy to pay the same amount on our future cruises and could she put us down that we would do so?

Mrs Kalos said this would be decided when we were onboard the ship and the outcome of this pending investigation by them . The only reason we left the service charge on is we use buffet and freedom dining and did not want the staff in these locations to lose out because of us.

The lady from P&O assured my wife this was not the case and regardless of how much or little we pay the staff who are part of the service charge do not lose anything-So not to worry.

Mrs Kalos asked ..We have heard that the service charge is performance related and decided by the management if they get full payment.... That's right said the P&O lady .

Mrs Kalos said she would not elaborate further (But that's P&O's business really)

Also on asked do they have to share the personal tips we have given out to staff ?

She confirmed on P&O any tips are kept by the recipients .

P&O will get back to us at a later date pending the investigation.

 

I have only put this on so people can draw their own conclusions from what we were told.

I think we will continue to do the same that is our choice just as others do what they think is best.

Carrying a boat load of cash (sorry about the pun ;p) to dish out each day is not my idea of a good holiday.

My protest is P&O cannot just keep increasing service charges to mask the real price of their cruises .

We will continue to reward personally but as for the Service charge this will now remain frozen by us until P&O come up with a better method as this one is clearly lacking .

[terrierjohn]

A lot of the time where I work I need to put my phone on call divert so Mrs Kalos takes the calls.

 

Yesterday was one of those calls.

 

It was P&O calling ... The first thing the lady said was sorry for the delay on calling us as the service reward letters had snowed them under with complaints and they had upheld our complaint and were investigating it further.

She could see we had paid the service charge at a reduced rate ,which was our right as it is optional.

Mrs Kalos explained to her that we still tip staff in person which far outweighs what we deducted from the service charge, which again was our right to do so.

The P&O lady agreed we had done nothing wrong and asked would we be happy to pay the same amount on our future cruises and could she put us down that we would do so?

Mrs Kalos said this would be decided when we were onboard the ship and the outcome of this pending investigation by them . The only reason we left the service charge on is we use buffet and freedom dining and did not want the staff in these locations to lose out because of us.

The lady from P&O assured my wife this was not the case and regardless of how much or little we pay the staff who are part of the service charge do not lose anything-So not to worry.

Mrs Kalos asked ..We have heard that the service charge is performance related and decided by the management if they get full payment.... That's right said the P&O lady .

Mrs Kalos said she would not elaborate further (But that's P&O's business really)

Also on asked do they have to share the personal tips we have given out to staff ?

She confirmed on P&O any tips are kept by the recipients .

P&O will get back to us at a later date pending the investigation.

 

I have only put this on so people can draw their own conclusions from what we were told.

I think we will continue to do the same that is our choice just as others do what they think is best.

Carrying a boat load of cash (sorry about the pun ;p) to dish out each day is not my idea of a good holiday.

My protest is P&O cannot just keep increasing service charges to mask the real price of their cruises .

We will continue to reward personally but as for the Service charge this will now remain frozen by us until P&O come up with a better method as this one is clearly lacking .

A very interesting, but as usual not totally illuminating response from P&O, it creates as many questions as it provides answers.

However if P&O are snowed under with service reward complaints surely they must recognise that passengers are unhappy with the current system. Therefore they really ought to be thinking about making gratuities inclusive in the cruise price, this ensures that everyone contributes something to the staff service reward, and still leaves us free to reward personally any member of staff who has given us outstanding service.

[Expat Cruise]

No member here can provide a proven answer. Many can guess but no one really knows. Anything P & O says is not confirmation because they have lied about these fees before. IE the letters upon removal they said not being sent and many members posted here and other sites that they got them after the statement by P & O.

 

So the only way a guest knows 100% for sure that a crew member is being given the money is to remove and directly tip in cash. Therefore I would say if you are unsure about who is being paid and how much, remove the fee and tip directly in cash.

 

Even if P & O was to claim the crew must turn in or pool cash tips, which does not seem to be true. It is still better to remove. No one but the people I tip in cash know about the tip, so how could the corporation require a crew member turn in money they cannot prove?

[grapau27]

A lot of the time where I work I need to put my phone on call divert so Mrs Kalos takes the calls.

 

Yesterday was one of those calls.

 

It was P&O calling ... The first thing the lady said was sorry for the delay on calling us as the service reward letters had snowed them under with complaints and they had upheld our complaint and were investigating it further.

She could see we had paid the service charge at a reduced rate ,which was our right as it is optional.

Mrs Kalos explained to her that we still tip staff in person which far outweighs what we deducted from the service charge, which again was our right to do so.

The P&O lady agreed we had done nothing wrong and asked would we be happy to pay the same amount on our future cruises and could she put us down that we would do so?

Mrs Kalos said this would be decided when we were onboard the ship and the outcome of this pending investigation by them . The only reason we left the service charge on is we use buffet and freedom dining and did not want the staff in these locations to lose out because of us.

The lady from P&O assured my wife this was not the case and regardless of how much or little we pay the staff who are part of the service charge do not lose anything-So not to worry.

Mrs Kalos asked ..We have heard that the service charge is performance related and decided by the management if they get full payment.... That's right said the P&O lady .

Mrs Kalos said she would not elaborate further (But that's P&O's business really)

Also on asked do they have to share the personal tips we have given out to staff ?

She confirmed on P&O any tips are kept by the recipients .

P&O will get back to us at a later date pending the investigation.

 

I have only put this on so people can draw their own conclusions from what we were told.

I think we will continue to do the same that is our choice just as others do what they think is best.

Carrying a boat load of cash (sorry about the pun ;p) to dish out each day is not my idea of a good holiday.

My protest is P&O cannot just keep increasing service charges to mask the real price of their cruises .

We will continue to reward personally but as for the Service charge this will now remain frozen by us until P&O come up with a better method as this one is clearly lacking .

Thanks for the information.

[grapau27]

A very interesting, but as usual not totally illuminating response from P&O, it creates as many questions as it provides answers.

However if P&O are snowed under with service reward complaints surely they must recognise that passengers are unhappy with the current system. Therefore they really ought to be thinking about making gratuities inclusive in the cruise price, this ensures that everyone contributes something to the staff service reward, and still leaves us free to reward personally any member of staff who has given us outstanding service.

100% agree.

P&O comments about being snowed under with service reward complaints tells it's own story irrespective of what some people might say on here unfortunately.

[grapau27]

No member here can provide a proven answer. Many can guess but no one really knows. Anything P & O says is not confirmation because they have lied about these fees before. IE the letters upon removal they said not being sent and many members posted here and other sites that they got them after the statement by P & O.

 

So the only way a guest knows 100% for sure that a crew member is being given the money is to remove and directly tip in cash. Therefore I would say if you are unsure about who is being paid and how much, remove the fee and tip directly in cash.

 

Even if P & O was to claim the crew must turn in or pool cash tips, which does not seem to be true. It is still better to remove. No one but the people I tip in cash know about the tip, so how could the corporation require a crew member turn in money they cannot prove?

Exactly,as Judge Judge Sheindlin would say on TV, ' Tell a lie and it's hard to believe anything else you say.

[yuvraj]

Better PR is to add a little extra to the cruise price so everyone contributes to the tip pool and claim ' Tips Included.

 

I agree with you. Time for P&O and perhaps other cruise lines to adopt a "service included" pricing strategy. There was a time when I didn't think this was a good idea but now I have changed my mind.

[Harry Peterson]

Whatever certain members of this forum might choose to believe (or at least state that they believe), there's a clear majority here taking the view that opting out of the voluntary gratuity charge will have no effect on the payments received by the staff, and that there's absolutely no point in paying it to P&O.

 

If that view takes hold amongst the public at large (bearing in mind that forum members probably aren't very typical) P&O are going to lose a large chunk of income.

 

That will have to be replaced if shareholders aren't to take a hit (unthinkable!) and they'll either have to keep on increasing the voluntary service charge to those gullible enough to pay it, or increase prices generally. The only reason they do it this way is to avoid the UK pricing laws which would require them to headline much higher prices. It'll probably come to that eventually, once the majority of the public out there has wised up.

[DamianG]

The thing is Dai, it’s not just a handful of people from this forum. It’s hundreds per cruise. I know that because on our last cruise the person in front of me at reception was complaining that she had removed her auto gratuities 3 days earlier yet they were still on her account. The exasperated young lady at reception held up a very thick pile of forms and said ‘we’ve still got all of these to process’. That was on a cruise with mostly experienced cruisers. I would suggest that the percentage of opt outs on Cruises with higher proportions of new cruisers is even greater. That was the clincher for me and confirmed my belief that the charge has increased due to the high opt outs.

 

I would also think that the number of new cruisers who opt out is very high.

Our last few cruises have been restricted to school holidays in August and each time the Captain has announced a high volume of first time cruisers. I can just imagine a family of 4 with 2 teenagers on a 14 night cruise seeing a £392 charge on their account on top of a fare that already cost several thousand and immediately querying it then accepting the offer to cancel.

[gillybean1974]

I've finally seen the light lol. Having worked for tips on ships and at home, I've always believed its important to pay the AG/Service charge. However having read many posts regarding how P&O handles the AG I've decided that its not only in my best interests to remove the charge but the staff also,

 

My only dilemma is being that we have chosen freedom dining, I can't simply hand over and envelope at the end of the cruise as likely we will be served by different waitstaff. So we'll be setting aside £5 a day for the CS and £5 for dinner (if that means boarding with a wad of £5's so be it). That leaves a little bit extra for room service and the breakfast and lunches we have in dining room. I can't really think of a better way of doing it so if anyone does have a fair way of working it out let me know. I've always tipped well but I'm not paying into the cruiselines wage bill, at least cash tips will be appreciated by staff.

 

As an aside, just because P&O structure their AG this way doesn't mean that all cruiselines do so. When I started working on celebrity (casino) I didn't seem to make much in tips, as soon as RC took over my tips earned doubled and all that they did was remove management from the tip pool.

[grapau27]

I would also think that the number of new cruisers who opt out is very high.

Our last few cruises have been restricted to school holidays in August and each time the Captain has announced a high volume of first time cruisers. I can just imagine a family of 4 with 2 teenagers on a 14 night cruise seeing a £392 charge on their account on top of a fare that already cost several thousand and immediately querying it then accepting the offer to cancel.

It must be very tempting for them to stop the gratuities.

The same goes for some who say they tip cash only.

How many will hand out or still have almost £400 for tips at the end of the cruise?.

[picsa]

It was P&O calling

The lady from P&O assured my wife this was not the case and regardless of how much or little we pay the staff who are part of the service charge do not lose anything-So not to worry.

 

So there you go again.

 

Pay the auto tips or don't pay the auto tips, it makes no difference to the staff.

[Harry Peterson]

A lot of the time where I work I need to put my phone on call divert so Mrs Kalos takes the calls.

 

Yesterday was one of those calls.

 

It was P&O calling ... The first thing the lady said was sorry for the delay on calling us as the service reward letters had snowed them under with complaints and they had upheld our complaint and were investigating it further.

She could see we had paid the service charge at a reduced rate ,which was our right as it is optional.

Mrs Kalos explained to her that we still tip staff in person which far outweighs what we deducted from the service charge, which again was our right to do so.

The P&O lady agreed we had done nothing wrong and asked would we be happy to pay the same amount on our future cruises and could she put us down that we would do so?

Mrs Kalos said this would be decided when we were onboard the ship and the outcome of this pending investigation by them . The only reason we left the service charge on is we use buffet and freedom dining and did not want the staff in these locations to lose out because of us.

The lady from P&O assured my wife this was not the case and regardless of how much or little we pay the staff who are part of the service charge do not lose anything-So not to worry.

Mrs Kalos asked ..We have heard that the service charge is performance related and decided by the management if they get full payment.... That's right said the P&O lady .

Mrs Kalos said she would not elaborate further (But that's P&O's business really)

Also on asked do they have to share the personal tips we have given out to staff ?

She confirmed on P&O any tips are kept by the recipients .

P&O will get back to us at a later date pending the investigation.

 

I have only put this on so people can draw their own conclusions from what we were told.

I think we will continue to do the same that is our choice just as others do what they think is best.

Carrying a boat load of cash (sorry about the pun ;p) to dish out each day is not my idea of a good holiday.

My protest is P&O cannot just keep increasing service charges to mask the real price of their cruises .

We will continue to reward personally but as for the Service charge this will now remain frozen by us until P&O come up with a better method as this one is clearly lacking .

 

Just waiting for the allegations from certain quarters that this is all made up, and fake news. Probably by a disgruntled employee. :cool:

[jeanlyon]

I don't take loads of cash with me. I draw what I want at Reception for my tips. It goes on your credit card/debit card and you do not pay any fee for it.

[P-L-B]

I don't take loads of cash with me. I draw what I want at Reception for my tips. It goes on your credit card/debit card and you do not pay any fee for it.

Thanks for sharing that information, I didn't know you could do that.

Although, occasionally we do obtain foreign currency that way, and as you say you do not pay any fee.

I wasn't aware you could draw sterling using the same method.

[daiB]

Just waiting for the allegations from certain quarters that this is all made up, and fake news. Probably by a disgruntled employee. :cool:

 

 

 

Well it is not correct as there are two thirds who cannot get their tips or bonus depending on the passenger questionnaire as I have said it is impossible with freedom dining when people have different waiters each night.

 

However this may not be ideal but much better than not getting a tip at all as they are serving different people each night who have removed their auto tips.

 

 

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[suekay]

After reading the controversial post, we removed the ag's for the first time in over 35 cruises. We calculated the weekly gratuities and gave one third to the cabin steward, then a third each to the waiter and assistant waiter. The latter two we had to pay daily as we were on freedom dining. Both were surprised to get the cash which leads me to believe not many people tip daily. I must admit it was a pain having to get the correct cash then remember to take it to the dining room, but at least we know our tips went to the staff we wanted to reward. We don't want our tips to subsidise those who opt out and neither do we want them to be used as a weapon to keep staff in line

 

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