Holland America Munster Drill

[doublebzz]

1 hour ago, Recruiter66 said:

Muster is mandatory they will not leave port until every person on board (except for those who are on board from a previous cruise and are continuing on current cruise) has been swiped with their cruise card at muster station.

Is this correct? I was under the impression that everyone had to attend the muster drill even those that sailed on the immediately preceding cruise.

[Recruiter66]

On our last cruise I heard they needed to check in afterwards but didn't have to go.  I'm almost 100% sure.  I guess it depends on the Captain.

[blueboro]

On Koningsdam since there is no promenade everyone was in public rooms so no standing in the hot sun.

[Tennessee Titan]

2 hours ago, blueboro said:

On Koningsdam since there is no promenade everyone was in public rooms so no standing in the hot sun.

Before everyone gets all out of shape - There IS a promenade on the Koningsdam. It is narrower, making a muster drill difficult.....

[hunt182644]

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 6:05 PM, mcrcruiser said:

 ROTFL

Wondering which one of the comedians is bringing crackers to go with the munster?

[blueboro]

42 minutes ago, Tennessee Titan said:

Before everyone gets all out of shape - There IS a promenade on the Koningsdam. It is narrower, making a muster drill difficult.....

 

Yes there is one...but on much of it two people cannot walk shoulder to shoulder so no way to do a muster on it.  And don't expect any loungers as on other HAL ships.

[Tennessee Titan]

30 minutes ago, blueboro said:

 

Yes there is one...but on much of it two people cannot walk shoulder to shoulder so no way to do a muster on it.  And don't expect any loungers as on other HAL ships.

IMHO: an exaggeration (unless you both weigh 400#) I have 54 days on the Koningsdam. How many do you have???

[blueboro]

15 minutes ago, Tennessee Titan said:

IMHO: an exaggeration (unless you both weigh 400#) I have 54 days on the Koningsdam. How many do you have???

 Don't get your panties in a wad fellow Titan fan.  I have 12 days.  In the mid section the deck is wider but from aft 1/3 and forward 1/3 this is how it narrows.  Judge for yourself.

 

[Tennessee Titan]

OK< but this area would not be where muster drills would be (or ever were) held...…….

[Djptcp]

After responding to this thread, I contacted the HAL special needs dept. by email today and mentioned that on all our HAL cruises (on a number of different HAL ships), special needs passengers were allowed to check in at the muster station and then go to a lounge area to sit that was near the muster station. There are usually 30-40 people sitting in the special needs section. I explained I have a standing issue and there is no way I can stand for muster drills. I received a response right away and said there are no special needs areas for muster drills and I have to go to the muster station. Huh? How can he explain what we have experienced on all of our other HAL cruises on various HAL ships? I haven't responded back to him yet.

[doublebzz]

11 minutes ago, Djptcp said:

 How can he explain what we have experienced on all of our other HAL cruises on various HAL ships? I haven't responded back to him yet.

Perhaps individual ship's captains are exercising common sense and ignoring the bureaucratic BS from company headquarters.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, mancunian1 said:

Ruth is correct in saying it depends on which ship you travel on.  I did not know about the indoor arrangements on the smaller ships, thank you Ruth.   However, I did have success on Nieuw Amsterdam.  I arrived fairly early and was walking badly along the deck with my stick when a fellow passenger pulled out one of the deckchairs - closed up by the staff for the muster.  I was not sure what to do - did not want to offend a kind fellow passenger, but knew they would have none of this, so I headed slowly toward the chair.  Before I could think of sitting down I was intercepted and the  boat leader got another staff member to take me to one of the lounges where there were one or two others.   It was a very long drill and by the end  the room was filling in with half collapsed passengers.

 

I have written to HAL about this.   I do not see why HAL is the only line I have been on who gets the passengers on deck.   In the event of an emergency in nearly all cases they would get you to a public area and not to the deck until they were absolutely sure.  If they consider it such an important safety feature are they putting at risk those passengers on Konigsdam, and presumably the Nieuw Statendam where they cannot get all the passengers on deck!!!   Makes you wonder at the thinking.

 

However, the thing that really got me writing to them (as well as the above) was when they decided the drill could not start until all passengers were present, and we have been on some very long drills because of that.   I pointed out that this was totally wrong, they should instead say the passengers who have not reported should be told to go immediately to front office where an officer would be waiting for them, and they could not penalise other passengers in this way.   I also said that depending on their own age how would they feel about their elderly parents or grandparents standing in heat in this way.   Needless to say I did not have a reply.

 

Krazy Kruisers I am afraid I ignore the going back to your cabin and get at least to the deck before we are told in a drill.   You are not supposed to use the lifts and there is no way I can walk up or downstairs in a crowd in a hurry.   I also do not understand how if someone comes for you (we always register for this after the drill) they can collect you in the wheelchair, as I was under the impression that in a real event not a drill they would have to carry you down the stairs.

 

On two cruises ago the weather was very very hot at Fort Lauderdale, not everyone turned up - surprise, surprise and we were kept for three quarters of an hour.   People were taken ill, someone at the next lifeboat they had to come with a stretcher.  

 

The muster drill totally ruins any joy of being onboard because I dread the whole event.   

Several points to disagree with.  First and foremost, HAL is not the only line to hold drills outdoors.  Nearly all older ships do, NCL, RCI to name a couple.

 

Second, you are totally incorrect about "in a real emergency in nearly all cases they would get you to a public area".  In any emergency, HAL has a three tier system, and if you are bypassing their instructions to go back to your cabin at the (I think) second level, then you are merely aggravating an emergency situation because the crew will be directing you to go back to your cabin, and taking the time to ensure you do so, thereby taking them away from their assigned duties.  When the third level is sounded, you will go to your muster station, whether it is indoors or outdoors, the same as the drill on the first day, not to any "public space".

 

SOLAS requires the muster station to be as close as possible to the boats, provided the space meets the requirements for a muster station, so by law (not cruise line decision), if the promenade deck is large enough for a muster of passengers, then it must be used for the muster station.  It is only when ships are designed so that there is insufficient space on deck to hold a muster and still have a passage along the deck to get past the muster, then SOLAS allows indoor muster stations.  However, these must be designed for use as a muster station, complying with requirements for volume, square footage, lighting, power, ventilation, ease of getting to the boats, and number and size of ingress/egress points.  They will not put you in some random public space unless your muster station is unavailable due to being involved in the emergency.

 

Now, once you have registered for special needs, in an actual emergency crew will be dispatched to your cabin (another reason to follow the rules and go back to your cabin, 'cause otherwise they can't find you), and they will be able to get you up or down to the muster station using an elevator.  The elevators are turned to "fireman mode" just like in a high rise building, where only those with a key can use them.  The special needs crew, or the crew assigned to clear the deck will have a key.  The only elevators that don't work at all in an emergency are those elevators that are within a fire zone where there is an active fire alarm.  These will move to midway up the shaft and stop, acting as a fire break.  But, the special needs teams will know which elevators are out, and go to another.

 

Any time you "go your own way" against the policies of the cruise line, you are placing yourself and others at greater risk, as there will be additional assets assigned to find you (not all crew have radios to report where you are), and even diverting fire teams to look for you in the fire zone rather than their primary mission of fighting the fire.

 

By saying that the drill should bypass latecomers would be the same as saying that it is alright in an emergency to forget about someone who is late, and not worry where they are.  Remember, this drill is the only time the crew get to train with large groups of difficult and possibly unruly passengers, so it needs to be as realistic as possible.  And speaking of realism, in an actual emergency, you could be standing at that muster station for hours.

 

And you know what?  Muster is not supposed to be entertaining or even enjoyable, it is designed to show you what to do in a situation where your life is in danger.

[KroozNut]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Several points to disagree with.  First and foremost, HAL is not the only line to hold drills outdoors.  Nearly all older ships do, NCL, RCI to name a couple.

 

Second, you are totally incorrect about "in a real emergency in nearly all cases they would get you to a public area".  In any emergency, HAL has a three tier system, and if you are bypassing their instructions to go back to your cabin at the (I think) second level, then you are merely aggravating an emergency situation because the crew will be directing you to go back to your cabin, and taking the time to ensure you do so, thereby taking them away from their assigned duties.  When the third level is sounded, you will go to your muster station, whether it is indoors or outdoors, the same as the drill on the first day, not to any "public space".

 

SOLAS requires the muster station to be as close as possible to the boats, provided the space meets the requirements for a muster station, so by law (not cruise line decision), if the promenade deck is large enough for a muster of passengers, then it must be used for the muster station.  It is only when ships are designed so that there is insufficient space on deck to hold a muster and still have a passage along the deck to get past the muster, then SOLAS allows indoor muster stations.  However, these must be designed for use as a muster station, complying with requirements for volume, square footage, lighting, power, ventilation, ease of getting to the boats, and number and size of ingress/egress points.  They will not put you in some random public space unless your muster station is unavailable due to being involved in the emergency.

 

Now, once you have registered for special needs, in an actual emergency crew will be dispatched to your cabin (another reason to follow the rules and go back to your cabin, 'cause otherwise they can't find you), and they will be able to get you up or down to the muster station using an elevator.  The elevators are turned to "fireman mode" just like in a high rise building, where only those with a key can use them.  The special needs crew, or the crew assigned to clear the deck will have a key.  The only elevators that don't work at all in an emergency are those elevators that are within a fire zone where there is an active fire alarm.  These will move to midway up the shaft and stop, acting as a fire break.  But, the special needs teams will know which elevators are out, and go to another.

 

Any time you "go your own way" against the policies of the cruise line, you are placing yourself and others at greater risk, as there will be additional assets assigned to find you (not all crew have radios to report where you are), and even diverting fire teams to look for you in the fire zone rather than their primary mission of fighting the fire.

 

By saying that the drill should bypass latecomers would be the same as saying that it is alright in an emergency to forget about someone who is late, and not worry where they are.  Remember, this drill is the only time the crew get to train with large groups of difficult and possibly unruly passengers, so it needs to be as realistic as possible.  And speaking of realism, in an actual emergency, you could be standing at that muster station for hours.

 

And you know what?  Muster is not supposed to be entertaining or even enjoyable, it is designed to show you what to do in a situation where your life is in danger.

 

Hmmmmm, wonder where mancunian1 is.. 😉

[Copper10-8]

One of the pieces of emergency equipment HAL crews, more specifically, the Emergency Response Support Team (ERST, formerly known as the Rescue Squad), the Security team and the Housekeeping team, regularly train on are the ship's emergency transport devices. Each dam ship has them; motorized “stair climbers” or “ascenders” and manually operated descenders. They are used in cases of total power failure of the ship, in other words when none of the elevators are working. The objective in using these emergency transport devices is to safely get mobility impaired guests to their lifeboat stations on "boat deck". Both types of devices work on a "tracked" system (like a miniature caterpillar) with the ascenders having their own electric motor in order to "go up" stairs, and the descenders being operated by hand by manipulating the hand brake in order to "go down" stairs.

 

 

Electric “stair climber” or “ascender” without a wheelchair attached

 

 

Electric “stair climber” or “ascender” with attached wheelchair

 

 

Manually operated Descender

 

 

Manually operated Descender

[mancunian1]

chengkp75 asks where I am.  Not sure of the relevance here, but England.

 

I did not say all cruiseships I said the ones I had sailed on which includes Celebrity, Oceania, P&O England, Swan Hellenic, Seabourn, Silversea, Orient Lines, Saga and others.  If there is indeed such a solas rule it would seem many lines are ignoring it wouldn't it.

 

I am glad of Coppers input here because you are always told not to use elevators in the event of an emergency and I do not consider I am doing anything wrong in getting to correct deck in a drill before  the full siren.    We do not register at front office until after the drill.  Obviously if registered I would remain in the cabin.   I guess chengkp you are not disabled and are unable to understand the pain and difficulties it causes and the necessity for forward planning.

 

I am also confused as to why you think in an real emergency you would be left at the muster station for hours.  I am pretty sure this is not the case and it would be better for the captain and crew to know that you were accounted for in the public rooms assigned.   In a real emergency not all boats will be able to be lowered and leading people to them is a much better option.  For this reason on a couple of ships we have not been given an actual lifeboat.

 

I also cannot agree that you should keep elderly and or disabled people waiting for those who cannot be bothered to attend.  I think my suggested solution would be much better and the officer meeting such people at the desk could have a much stronger impact on them.  I do think too that the longer you leave people in heat by the time you get to the actual drill instructions many people are beyond really listening.

 

However, each to their own views

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, mancunian1 said:

chengkp75 asks where I am.  Not sure of the relevance here, but England.

 

I did not say all cruiseships I said the ones I had sailed on which includes Celebrity, Oceania, P&O England, Swan Hellenic, Seabourn, Silversea, Orient Lines, Saga and others.  If there is indeed such a solas rule it would seem many lines are ignoring it wouldn't it.

No, it means that those ships were designed from the drawing board to have indoor muster locations.  Trust me, after 43 years on ships I know the SOLAS requirements inside and out, having a copy of them as a reference on my bookshelf.

1 hour ago, mancunian1 said:

 

I am glad of Coppers input here because you are always told not to use elevators in the event of an emergency and I do not consider I am doing anything wrong in getting to correct deck in a drill before  the full siren.    We do not register at front office until after the drill.  Obviously if registered I would remain in the cabin.   I guess chengkp you are not disabled and are unable to understand the pain and difficulties it causes and the necessity for forward planning.

Not sure why you don't go to guest services before the drill, as this makes the drill more realistic for the crew, knowing how many people with mobility issues they actually have, and how many resources will be needed to deal with them.

1 hour ago, mancunian1 said:

 

I am also confused as to why you think in an real emergency you would be left at the muster station for hours.  I am pretty sure this is not the case and it would be better for the captain and crew to know that you were accounted for in the public rooms assigned.   In a real emergency not all boats will be able to be lowered and leading people to them is a much better option.  For this reason on a couple of ships we have not been given an actual lifeboat.

What public rooms assigned?  Are you talking about ships that have muster indoors in public spaces?  Those are your muster stations, just like the space outside on deck is your muster station on a ship with outside musters.  And, again, you make the common error of many cruisers in misunderstanding what the passenger muster is all about.  The passenger muster is not primarily about getting the passengers to the boats.  The muster is for accountability, pure and simple.  It is to get all of the passengers into a limited number of known locations, so that accountability can be taken and missing people identified so that crew can be alerted or dispatched to find them, and to have the passengers under crew control.  There are far more instances of passengers being sent to their muster stations in an emergency, when the Captain had no intention of abandoning the ship, and then when the emergency is over, often hours later, the passengers are allowed to return to their cabins and public spaces and resume their cruise.

 

As for the statement "not all boats would be able to be lowered", that is another misconception.  Most ships that are sinking (the only real reason to leave the ship), do so upright, and anyway boats are designed to be launched at 15* of heel, which most cruisers feel is "going over".  Even the Costa Concordia, was not listing more than 15* for over two hours after striking the rock, so all boats could have been launched, and only listed above 15* when she ran aground again and the point of contact with the bottom acted as a fulcrum point.  Even then, 23 of 26 boats were launched successfully.

1 hour ago, mancunian1 said:

 

I also cannot agree that you should keep elderly and or disabled people waiting for those who cannot be bothered to attend.  I think my suggested solution would be much better and the officer meeting such people at the desk could have a much stronger impact on them.  I do think too that the longer you leave people in heat by the time you get to the actual drill instructions many people are beyond really listening.

 

However, each to their own views

I do not discount your need to pre-plan due to your disability, but having supervised passenger muster drills during my time on cruise ships, and also being the "on-scene commander" for all shipboard emergencies during that time, directing and co-ordinating the emergency teams onboard, and after 43 years of shipboard drills and emergencies, I still say that the drill needs to be as realistic as possible, or the crew at muster can say, well we don't have to worry about late comers, since we didn't worry about them during drills.  "Muscle memory" is what will take someone who might otherwise freeze in an emergency, and get them to perform their duties adequately.  Remember, as much as you need to pre-plan, the entire crew has pre-planned for emergencies, and you need to let them do their job without adding to the complexity.

 

"Drill instructions" are down the list of importance, many of these "instructions" have nothing to do with the muster drill.  The things passengers should take from a muster drill are:

1.  Show up (know how to get to your station)

2.  Shut up

3.  Listen up for further instructions

[Recruiter66]

This is like the instructions you receive before taking off on the plane, you don't listen until something happens.  If it were a real emergency you wouldn't be able to use the elevators or sit down, however if Princess Cruises can put people in the show room and explain the same thing and they are owned by the same company why can't HAL do that?  It is my only big beef with this cruise line.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, Recruiter66 said:

This is like the instructions you receive before taking off on the plane, you don't listen until something happens.  If it were a real emergency you wouldn't be able to use the elevators or sit down, however if Princess Cruises can put people in the show room and explain the same thing and they are owned by the same company why can't HAL do that?  It is my only big beef with this cruise line.

Again, because the ships are designed differently.  Or possibly (I'm not conversant with Dutch maritime law), there is something in being Dutch registered that requires the muster at the boats.

Edited November 9, 2018 by chengkp75

[RedneckBob]

On 10/28/2018 at 6:27 PM, Tennessee Titan said:

What is a "munster" drill??

 

5 Star and you dont know what is a munster drill. We must be related. I thought a mustard station was a condiment bar for hot dogs 

[avian777]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

No, it means that those ships were designed from the drawing board to have indoor muster locations.  Trust me, after 43 years on ships I know the SOLAS requirements inside and out, having a copy of them as a reference on my bookshelf.

Not sure why you don't go to guest services before the drill, as this makes the drill more realistic for the crew, knowing how many people with mobility issues they actually have, and how many resources will be needed to deal with them.

What public rooms assigned?  Are you talking about ships that have muster indoors in public spaces?  Those are your muster stations, just like the space outside on deck is your muster station on a ship with outside musters.  And, again, you make the common error of many cruisers in misunderstanding what the passenger muster is all about.  The passenger muster is not primarily about getting the passengers to the boats.  The muster is for accountability, pure and simple.  It is to get all of the passengers into a limited number of known locations, so that accountability can be taken and missing people identified so that crew can be alerted or dispatched to find them, and to have the passengers under crew control.  There are far more instances of passengers being sent to their muster stations in an emergency, when the Captain had no intention of abandoning the ship, and then when the emergency is over, often hours later, the passengers are allowed to return to their cabins and public spaces and resume their cruise.

 

As for the statement "not all boats would be able to be lowered", that is another misconception.  Most ships that are sinking (the only real reason to leave the ship), do so upright, and anyway boats are designed to be launched at 15* of heel, which most cruisers feel is "going over".  Even the Costa Concordia, was not listing more than 15* for over two hours after striking the rock, so all boats could have been launched, and only listed above 15* when she ran aground again and the point of contact with the bottom acted as a fulcrum point.  Even then, 23 of 26 boats were launched successfully.

I do not discount your need to pre-plan due to your disability, but having supervised passenger muster drills during my time on cruise ships, and also being the "on-scene commander" for all shipboard emergencies during that time, directing and co-ordinating the emergency teams onboard, and after 43 years of shipboard drills and emergencies, I still say that the drill needs to be as realistic as possible, or the crew at muster can say, well we don't have to worry about late comers, since we didn't worry about them during drills.  "Muscle memory" is what will take someone who might otherwise freeze in an emergency, and get them to perform their duties adequately.  Remember, as much as you need to pre-plan, the entire crew has pre-planned for emergencies, and you need to let them do their job without adding to the complexity.

 

"Drill instructions" are down the list of importance, many of these "instructions" have nothing to do with the muster drill.  The things passengers should take from a muster drill are:

1.  Show up (know how to get to your station)

2.  Shut up

3.  Listen up for further instructions

 

Thank you, chengkp75, for your usual, insightful comments.  Always refreshing to see a Post  from someone who really knows of which he/she speaks.  Thanks again!!!

👍👍👍

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

I too thank chengkp75 for his knowledge and explanations. I especially appreciated the Show Up, Shut Up, and Listen. At both inside and outside muster stations, I get so tired of the constant chatter and laughter of the participants. I really like it when a Captain will say "Quiet on the deck."

[iflyrc5]

23 hours ago, doublebzz said:

Is this correct? I was under the impression that everyone had to attend the muster drill even those that sailed on the immediately preceding cruise.

Last year on the Koningsdam we did B2B2B2B  10 day - 11 day - 10 day - 11 day and only had to go to the drill on the 10 day segments. 

[KroozNut]

On 11/8/2018 at 8:12 AM, Recruiter66 said:

I am not rushing to it this trip only to stand for 30 minutes.

 

And then everybody else will be required to wait for you to finally show up, so they will be standing twice as long...  nice! 

[Despegue]

2 hours ago, SJSULIBRARIAN said:

I too thank chengkp75 for his knowledge and explanations. I especially appreciated the Show Up, Shut Up, and Listen. At both inside and outside muster stations, I get so tired of the constant chatter and laughter of the participants. I really like it when a Captain will say "Quiet on the deck."

That would be Capt. Rens van Eerten then .

 

people need to understand that yours and others lives may depend on the info that is given during the drill. So indeed, shut up, pay attention and respect those responsable for saving your live in an emergency. Full stop.

 

The 3 tier system that HAL applies is very well thought out,  let me try and explain a bit how things work when designing Evacuation procedures and assembly stations on ships. 

 

The Second stage alarm is  very important actually. It gives the crew the ability and room to fight whatever they have to fight and it gives YOU, the passenger the chance to remain in a known location, close to needed medication and close to warm clothes ( take a hat).

the third stage alarm means that all passengers need to assemble to the Assembly Stations ( your Muster Station) ( for the geeks, SOLAS reg II-2/28-1, reg III/6, is why I say assembly station ). Which does not mean an abandon ship but the need to get all passengers into certain, pre-determined zones, safe from hazard, in order to facilitate further decisions by the Master. This Assembly station ( and the whole second stage actually)is also designed to minimize time for the passenger to realize the situation and to get to your station from your cabin.( this is called Response duration and Total Travel duration) I can assure you that all these things are calculated, using complex formula and tables, with differentiations for night and day  for example, calculating congestion pounts etc etc... for calculating purposes a specific demographic is used, males/females, age differences and mobility impaired or not. Example, calculations use 20 percent of passengers over 50 years old and mobility impaired. ( this is Standard, HAL might have more restricted calculation , but these are minima) even walking speed for each demographic is calculated.

 

I know, lots of blablabla, but I just want you all to realize the complexity and that HAL or any other line, spends a lot of time and money to comply with these rules. Assembly Stations are NOT chosen at random and NOT that easily changed.

 

IF an abandon ship is chosen, in case of Koningsdam/ Nieuw Statendam, then you will be escorted to an Embarkation Station, the actual place where you will board your lifeboat ( or raft). 

 

 

 

 

[chengkp75]

18 minutes ago, iflyrc5 said:

Last year on the Koningsdam we did B2B2B2B  10 day - 11 day - 10 day - 11 day and only had to go to the drill on the 10 day segments. 

It varies by cruise line, but the legal requirement is once every 30 days,  so going on your first and last would have been 31 days, so they did it on the first and third segments.