Just off Symphony..Health Violations in Chops followed by Norovirus

[SRF]

15 hours ago, Loucat said:

For those questioning the 33 hour incubation period, check the CDC website for your own viewing pleasure. It contains a wealth of information that aligns with what Karen, the OP explained. There is no evidence of noro "hitting in 12 hours", unless you have a source to quote.

 

Look a few posts up.  I posted from CDC.

 

Incubation period is 12 to 48 hours, with the median period being 33 hours.

 

So 12 hours is perfectly within what CDC says.  As is the 33 hours, or even longer.

 

[SRF]

15 hours ago, Loucat said:

For those questioning the 33 hour incubation period, check the CDC website for your own viewing pleasure. It contains a wealth of information that aligns with what Karen, the OP explained. There is no evidence of noro "hitting in 12 hours", unless you have a source to quote.

 

Look a few posts up.  I posted from CDC.

 

Incubation period is 12 to 48 hours, with the median period being 33 hours.

 

So 12 hours is perfectly within what CDC says.  As is the 33 hours, or even longer.

 

[Paulette3028]

50 minutes ago, schmeed said:

Something else nobody has addressed (unless I missed it):  It's certainly possible that if cross-contamination did indeed occur and ALL of the plates were contaminated, that it could still have only been the mother who showed symptoms of norovirus due to her age and, expected weakened immune system.

Isn't it possible that everyone at the table ingested the virus, but only the elderly individual succumb to the sickness?

I am far from a doctor....but I have raised two children, lived with my husband now for close to 45 years.....and I have come to learn that everyone's immune system is different.  People around me at work can be sneezing and I catch nothing, while others are sick in two days time.

 

We all can agree, I am sure, that cruise ships with such large populations of people (cruisers and staff) can be breeding grounds for germs.  That is why the concerted effort of the 'washy washy' campaign.  We all know people come on board sick, but don't admit it at embarkation -- they paid a lot for their vacation and nothing will stop them from going.

 

It just is difficult for me to lay blame on the woman's illness on what they saw, even though what they saw (bases solely on how they describe it) should not happen.  I myself have never seen plates handled in the way described.   

 

When we have ever heard of a norovirus event on a ship, it is much more large scale of affected people and that includes cruisers and staff personnel.

 

Personally, I believe the woman just got sick on the sailing.  The rest was coincidence.  JMO.

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Paulette3028

[tinkr2]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:56 AM, RPD said:

I’m sorry, but 83 might be too old to take someone on a cruise. If it were the plates that spread the norovirus, why didn’t others get it? I think you’re being pretty dramatic. 

 

LOL I will be sure to let my 96 year old zip lining pickle ball player dad that he is to old to eat and drink on a cruise.

And Holland will most certainly be puzzled by this statement .

[misty57]

4 hours ago, mayleeman said:

@Ocean Boy

My own comment was about the overuse of antibiotics by doctors in general because the description mentioned testing for other issues but no diagnosis except noro.  As an example, the CDC suggests that 90% of "strep" cases treated with antibiotics do not require, or benefit from, antibiotics because they are colds, flu, or the viral variant similar to strep. But I did allow for the possible prophylactic use for a weakened 83 year old who would likely be exposed to many more germs.

 

It is the unquestioned overprescribing of antibiotics by doctors that has helped create treatment resistant superbacteria, after all. Cautions against unnecessary prescriptions always seem in order.

In addition to inappropriate treatment with abtibioitics, a contributing factor to development of resistant bacteria is sharing of prescriptions and also not completing a proper course of appropriately prescribed antibiotics. Once you've seen a death or two from this you will never take antibiotic stewardship lightly! 

Like you, I am only guessing, but assuming there were other factors for the treatment given. The facility may have specific protocols for such things but won't necessarily be what you would find in a clinic here.

[Oceans4]

On 3/11/2019 at 4:27 PM, klfhngr said:

I'm not going to go thru each posting, but if you feel that 32, 34 and 37 are not 'flaming', then IDK what to say... I guess rude/mean has a different meaning to you... I agree with you 100% on having a RESPECTABLE convo/disagreement. But that's not always the case here on CC.   

I agree there was flaming, and the OP is not a troll with their first post - this is someone with 1500 posts who is sharing information that might be important to others who care about sanitary food handling.   I, for one, would appreciate being aware of this if I was planning a meal at Chops.   I didn't take it as an overall slam on Royal but rather a specific incident of a problem to be corrected.   Less and less people will share their valid commentary if they have to fear being ridiculed.   I also think it is possible for a single person to get that one piece of food that was under cooked or spoiled and feel violently ill without the whole table needing to be sick as proof that it occurred.

 

There's always the option of ignoring the story if you feel it doesn't benefit or pertain to you.   Frankly, I was uncomfortable imagining the dirty dishes mingled with fresh food, although I imagine similar stuff happens in many restaurants.  At the very least,  Chops should keep it behind the scenes!   

 

As for 83 being too old to cruise....tell that to my 83 year old mother, who goes to dances twice a week and is involved in clubs and activities on a daily basis.  She would laugh at the concept of being told she's too old to do anything!

 

 

[tinkr2]

On 3/11/2019 at 8:24 AM, azkcruizers said:

And why is that?

 

He is teasing you bc Karen is the most commonly used name in memes and by comedians when describing women who complain. Based on the popularity of that name indoor age group I am sure.

On 3/11/2019 at 12:52 PM, azkcruizers said:

The plates were salads and not stacked straight up in the air.   I would say probably 50 percent in order to fit them on this small table/counter.

 

Most restaurants and servers that do high volume stack plates that way, with partial overlapping. Most restaurants do not put a plate scraping station next to food that is being served.

I am sorry that your mother was so ill. I know I would be very disappointed . It is hard to get extended family together and then to have her quarantined most have been a great disappointment. 

 

[azkcruizers]

[Homosassa]

I hope the mother is feeling better.

 

However, in spite of all the insistence that it was norovirus (that may have been the medical staff's first guess), it is very possible that the cause was something she was exposed to on the way to the ship or even several weeks before.

 

There is at least one common "stomach flu" that can take a month to appear,  symptoms include nausea, vomiting and diarrhea, relapses are common, and the effects of the infection are severe in adults and mild in children.

 

The fact that she was quarantined  for the entire cruise leads me to suspect that the medical staff later felt that it was not a simple case of norovirus.

[azkcruizers]

Thank you once again for those that have sent thoughts to my Mom.

 

Seeing the thread is still continuing on, I took a moment to try to give you a visual of what I'm speaking about.  The photos I posted are from Cruise Critic's Symphony of the Seas Chop's Grill page.  They are not my pictures and not taken when I was there.The first picture shows the alcove where you check in with the hostess and wait to be seated.  It's separate from where the tables are.  Yes, I found it funny for waiters to be coming through that area with plates to serve tables.  At the time this happened there were approximately a dozen people waiting here.

 

The second picture shows a table where the booth is against the wall and opposite are chairs.  This is the table my party was seated at.  From my chair you can see the small table I'm speaking of where plates were piled.  My salad plates that came to the table were at least 50 percent overlapping each other.  The computer screen you see actually looked flat in the center of the table.  Dirty plates were all piled up.  Everything was touching each other and the servers were pushing the plates aside in all directions to punch orders in.  This is also where plate scraping was going on over the top of a silverware tray.  Do you see the handles of the cupboards under the table?  This is where dirty plates of food were being shoved inside and then removed and scraped.  This is a very small table where all of this is happening.

 

The first visit to medical my Mom was given an iv for dehydration and had zofran and imodium.  She went back to her room when that was complete with the port still in.  I could bring her back later or the next morning to remove it.  The Dr.  did tell me she had norovirus.  I asked him if there were others on the ship with it and his reply was we always have some amount of noro going on.  I'm just telling you what he told me.

 

The second visit to medical was at 2am.  I called the nurses line and was told to bring her in.  I did and when she was settled she said I will get the Dr. now.  I'm assuming because of the time she had to wake him.  This was a different Dr.  Very brief and not friendly.  He examined my Mom and I explained we had been in already and diagnosed with norovirus.  He said I know.  When he walked away I didn't realize he wasn't returning.  The nurse came in and started an iv and I asked her what she was getting.  She told me antibiotics in case of infection.  She had to take them also the next five days by mouth.  I asked if this happens often with norovirus and she said sometimes.

 

We were there several hours and during that time there were other calls to the nurses line and the nurse asked them the same questions she had asked me about diarrhea and vomiting.  My niece had gone to the medical center during the week as well for upper respiratory issues and at that time there people were there getting their ports out.  I can only guess that they were also possibly diagnosed with norovirus.  Once my mother had been diagnosed we had a small yellow square magnet on the top of our door.  The cruise line is not required to report norovirus unless there is a certain percent of passengers effected.  I believe it's 2 percent.

 

You can take what you want from the photos and my final explanation.  I meant to share my story once again in case you see anything like this.  

[Daghis]

I just returned home from Symphony of the Seas today. My cruise ended with my husband and me being escorted off the ship after everyone else had disembarked (including the consecutive cruisers) due to me being in isolation.

 

I came down with an unspecific gastric illness (not specifically diagnosed, but the nurse acknowledged that norovirus shares the same symptoms as what I was experiencing) during the cruise and ended up being put under "isolation" (essentially quarantined in the cabin) from the evening of day 6 until disembarkation. I have no idea how I caught it (not surprisingly), but once I realized that it was more serious than an upset tummy, I went to (i.e., "turned myself in") the medical center. 

 

This is the first time I've experienced this kind of illness in 30+ cruises. I have no complaints about how Royal Caribbean handled this with me save for the frequency of the stay-in-your-cabin admonitions. The only issue I encountered was trying to order room service (from the limited "BRAT" menu) on disembarkation morning; Guest Services had to intervene and get the room service manager to call me to take my order since the line was otherwise disabled this morning.

[Arzeena]

OP sorry that you had to go through this ordeal and hope your Mom is feeling well now.

 

Daghis hope you are feeling well too.

 

[mek]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:56 AM, RPD said:

I’m sorry, but 83 might be too old to take someone on a cruise. If it were the plates that spread the norovirus, why didn’t others get it? I think you’re being pretty dramatic. 

Tell that to my 94 year old husband.  I hope at 83, I'm still cruising.

[cruznwithmom]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:56 AM, RPD said:

I’m sorry, but 83 might be too old to take someone on a cruise. If it were the plates that spread the norovirus, why didn’t others get it? I think you’re being pretty dramatic. 

you are joking, right? Lots of folks are happily cruising in their 80s!!!

I hope OP had trip insurance. You should never cruise without it.

 

[SRF]

Unless tests were done, noro was ASSUMED.  There are many things that can cause gastointestinal distress.

 

Antibiotics will do nothing for a case of noro.  It is a virus.  But they may be indicated if there is evidence that it is not viral, or due to an extended issue, that the person is weakened and more susceptible to a bacterial infection.