Ovation of the Seas Pax Possibly Injured in Volcanic Eruption

[Haoie]

Check out this passenger account.

[xpcdoojk]

4 hours ago, Anita Latte said:

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door."

 

Thank you to everyone that has posted links with the ongoing information regarding this very sad event. I walk away from it and then get caught up on it. I want to know...but being blunt, I don't want to dwell on the tragedy.

 

I've read of several tourist death occurrences in recent years...especially researching for our Alaska cruise in 2018. Thinking of how people suddenly die while in the midst of what I would hope is a very pleasurable experience is one thing...reading about the aftermath of those who didn't die is what is truly tragic in my mind. Forgive me...sudden loss of life is very sad but I prefer to think of those who lose their lives in such a way as going out with a bang. I took a course called "Death and Dying" in college and we had to do an exercise in what would be classified as a "good" death versus a "bad" one. I hope those that did die died quickly without much suffering. My heart breaks for the suddenness of it all, but not knowing anyone personally, I hurt more for those that are left behind than for those that were lost...especially the injured and those that dealt first hand with the injured and the situation in general.

 

I even feel for those on the cruise...what a mixed bag of emotions that must be. I know my own excitement surrounding vacations and travel...I can only imagine the conflict there. And the crew...to be at work with NO CHANCE of time off really...working through such a loss. I can't even.

 

With those thoughts in mind...knowing that tourism is a very real industry and how there are many places that rely on tourism dollars to make a living...I hope that such tours are not canceled altogether. I hope the knee jerk reaction of don't let anyone ever do this again and no one will die or suffer injury like this again could instead be translated into thoughts about how to make such things safer for those that want to risk it. It seems to me that if the burn victims had had on a suit of protection of some sort...more than just a gas mask...then perhaps the injuries would be less severe. IDK if such a suit exists at this point and time in a cost effective way...but it's a thought. I just hope that future risk avoidance efforts would focus on additional safety measures and not complete absence of risk.

 

I'm not supportive of restrictions...even for everyone's own good. Many tragedies can be avoided...but if we attempted to avoid all tragedies, many wonderful experiences would never be realized as well. I don't want to come off in a negative light...though some will read that...but I do believe that life generally has a balance...the extreme positive side and the extreme negative side. Usually, one doesn't exist without the other. And while it can be easy to focus in on extreme examples, to begin to censor choice seems a slippery slope to me.

 

Couldn’t agree more.  But the busy body doo-gooders will do good no matter how bad it is.

 

jc

[xpcdoojk]

Nice report from the port thread.  yikes!

 

Mr happy is not.

 

jc

[FLACRUISER99]

4 hours ago, Anita Latte said:

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door."

 

Thank you to everyone that has posted links with the ongoing information regarding this very sad event. I walk away from it and then get caught up on it. I want to know...but being blunt, I don't want to dwell on the tragedy.

 

I've read of several tourist death occurrences in recent years...especially researching for our Alaska cruise in 2018. Thinking of how people suddenly die while in the midst of what I would hope is a very pleasurable experience is one thing...reading about the aftermath of those who didn't die is what is truly tragic in my mind. Forgive me...sudden loss of life is very sad but I prefer to think of those who lose their lives in such a way as going out with a bang. I took a course called "Death and Dying" in college and we had to do an exercise in what would be classified as a "good" death versus a "bad" one. I hope those that did die died quickly without much suffering. My heart breaks for the suddenness of it all, but not knowing anyone personally, I hurt more for those that are left behind than for those that were lost...especially the injured and those that dealt first hand with the injured and the situation in general.

 

I even feel for those on the cruise...what a mixed bag of emotions that must be. I know my own excitement surrounding vacations and travel...I can only imagine the conflict there. And the crew...to be at work with NO CHANCE of time off really...working through such a loss. I can't even.

 

With those thoughts in mind...knowing that tourism is a very real industry and how there are many places that rely on tourism dollars to make a living...I hope that such tours are not canceled altogether. I hope the knee jerk reaction of don't let anyone ever do this again and no one will die or suffer injury like this again could instead be translated into thoughts about how to make such things safer for those that want to risk it. It seems to me that if the burn victims had had on a suit of protection of some sort...more than just a gas mask...then perhaps the injuries would be less severe. IDK if such a suit exists at this point and time in a cost effective way...but it's a thought. I just hope that future risk avoidance efforts would focus on additional safety measures and not complete absence of risk.

 

I'm not supportive of restrictions...even for everyone's own good. Many tragedies can be avoided...but if we attempted to avoid all tragedies, many wonderful experiences would never be realized as well. I don't want to come off in a negative light...though some will read that...but I do believe that life generally has a balance...the extreme positive side and the extreme negative side. Usually, one doesn't exist without the other. And while it can be easy to focus in on extreme examples, to begin to censor choice seems a slippery slope to me.

Best post I have seen in a long time.

[Hogbay]

Two still missing 

 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-18/new-zealand-volcano-white-island-victims-bodies-search-water/11808924

 

[bonsai3s]

On 12/17/2019 at 10:16 AM, Anita Latte said:

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door."

 

Thank you to everyone that has posted links with the ongoing information regarding this very sad event. I walk away from it and then get caught up on it. I want to know...but being blunt, I don't want to dwell on the tragedy.

 

I've read of several tourist death occurrences in recent years...especially researching for our Alaska cruise in 2018. Thinking of how people suddenly die while in the midst of what I would hope is a very pleasurable experience is one thing...reading about the aftermath of those who didn't die is what is truly tragic in my mind. Forgive me...sudden loss of life is very sad but I prefer to think of those who lose their lives in such a way as going out with a bang. I took a course called "Death and Dying" in college and we had to do an exercise in what would be classified as a "good" death versus a "bad" one. I hope those that did die died quickly without much suffering. My heart breaks for the suddenness of it all, but not knowing anyone personally, I hurt more for those that are left behind than for those that were lost...especially the injured and those that dealt first hand with the injured and the situation in general.

 

I even feel for those on the cruise...what a mixed bag of emotions that must be. I know my own excitement surrounding vacations and travel...I can only imagine the conflict there. And the crew...to be at work with NO CHANCE of time off really...working through such a loss. I can't even.

 

With those thoughts in mind...knowing that tourism is a very real industry and how there are many places that rely on tourism dollars to make a living...I hope that such tours are not canceled altogether. I hope the knee jerk reaction of don't let anyone ever do this again and no one will die or suffer injury like this again could instead be translated into thoughts about how to make such things safer for those that want to risk it. It seems to me that if the burn victims had had on a suit of protection of some sort...more than just a gas mask...then perhaps the injuries would be less severe. IDK if such a suit exists at this point and time in a cost effective way...but it's a thought. I just hope that future risk avoidance efforts would focus on additional safety measures and not complete absence of risk.

 

I'm not supportive of restrictions...even for everyone's own good. Many tragedies can be avoided...but if we attempted to avoid all tragedies, many wonderful experiences would never be realized as well. I don't want to come off in a negative light...though some will read that...but I do believe that life generally has a balance...the extreme positive side and the extreme negative side. Usually, one doesn't exist without the other. And while it can be easy to focus in on extreme examples, to begin to censor choice seems a slippery slope to me.

 

Love your post...thank you.

Yes, I also took the same course "Death and Dying"...Elisabeth Kubler Ross...still affects me to this day.

Another author is Leo Buscaglia...not death and dying...but of living.

[Coralc]

7 hours ago, Hogbay said:

Two still missing 

 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-18/new-zealand-volcano-white-island-victims-bodies-search-water/11808924

 

 

Isn't that a horrible shame? They may be lost at sea from an island. And sometimes people may not be found. What a sad thing for the families. 

[MicCanberra]

Yes, the not knowing and getting proper closure is heartbreaking.

[LMADAMS91]

On 12/13/2019 at 6:41 PM, snowglobe said:

In NZ, hard questions are beginning to be asked:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12293369

 

Other NZ media articles are also raising the question of having possible manslaughter charges being eventually laid (White Island Tours), once the inquest process is done. One chilling video, made public a couple of days ago, is of one of the deceased guides sharing with a tourist, on an much earlier tour, about how these volcano tours made him nervous.

 

No tourists should have been setting foot on this specific volcano, ever, not by boat nor by helicopter. The eruptions are frequent, and the superheated steam vents regularly. So this is not even comparable to a “maybe, if, one day...” type of risk level. Mother Nature is actually quite clear about her ongoing involvement with this island.
 

But “greed” and “want” supersede nature, no??

Of course, the tour company would have had to price a boat-only tour to view the island from the water at a much-cheaper price point. Plus, the owner of the Island could not have been charging for landing rights either.
 

As long as clueless tourists clamour for their next selfie opportunity, there will be an operator ready and willing to part them with their money. It was the same with Shane Turpin (tour boat owner) who took his ill-fated lava boat tour too close to the lava flow ocean entry off Hawaii last year, resulting in a serious injury.

I've watched this story unfold since the tragedy occurred.  As someone who enjoys a little risk, and loves photography......I would probably have been one who wanted to go on this tour.  As a travel agent and the person who plans our family vacations, I've been re-evaluating my mindset. 

My nephew is a vulcanologist and we have talked about this event. In his words......visitors should NEVER have been on this island. Why? I'm paraphrasing, but 1) the type of eruptions this volcano has are extremely difficult to predict.  This was corroborated by an interview on one of the NZ stations with a well-credentialed volcanologist who said the same thing (about predicting the eruptions. He totally sidestepped the question about whether there should have been tourists there. )
2) Each country has their own rules/standards for rating volcanoes and it doesn't necessarily coordinate with the standards of any other country. Volcanic activity from one site could rate a low rating from one country; another volcano in a different county, with the same type of volcanic activity in the exact same setting could have a completely different rating.  Most of the criteria used to rate the volcanoes is subjective.  One could be just as safe or dangerous as the other, but because of how the country rates their volcanoes or the experience of the person rating it, the ratings could be very different.....and unless someone does research, they may be unaware of the differences. 

Do I want the cruise lines to cancel all excursions with a hint of risk? No....I think that should be our responsibility to evaluate what we deem safe or too risky.  It is our responsibility to do the research beforehand. The assumption that because it is offered through the cruise line, or because a country allows an activity doesn't necessarily mean that activity is safe.  I will try to remember this sobering lesson when looking at future excursions.

My most sincere condolences go out to the families of those lost on White Island. 


 
 

Edited December 19, 2019 by LMADAMS91

[twangster]

1 hour ago, LMADAMS91 said:

My nephew is a vulcanologist and we have talked about this event. In his words......visitors should NEVER have been on this island. Why? I'm paraphrasing, but 1) the type of eruptions this volcano has are extremely difficult to predict.  This was corroborated by an interview on one of the NZ stations with a well-credentialed volcanologist who said the same thing (about predicting the eruptions. He totally sidestepped the question about whether there should have been tourists there. )

 

Here is where I struggle.  Even volcanologists can't agree.  The volcanologist whose sole job it is to issue alerts for NZ volcanoes including White Island stated it was okay for visitors just six days before the event.  That was the last alert issued before the eruption.

 

Whenever there is an accident or life lost in adventure touring there are always no shortage of people after the incident offering advice that it shouldn't be allowed.  How is a tour company, cruise line or eager participant looking forward to an adventure suppose to figure out which "expert" to believe?

[LMADAMS91]

1 minute ago, twangster said:

 

Here is where I struggle.  Even volcanologists can't agree.  The volcanologist whose sole job it is to issue alerts for NZ volcanoes including White Island stated it was okay for visitors just six days before the event.  That was the last alert issued before the eruption.

 

Whenever there is an accident or life lost in adventure touring there are always no shortage of people after the incident offering advice that it shouldn't be allowed.  How is a tour company, cruise line or eager participant looking forward to an adventure suppose to figure out which "expert" to believe?

Exactly the problem. Hindsight is easy. I was completely unaware that there wasn't a standard used for rating volcanoes......My nephew (again, a different viewpoint, different training, different experience than whomever gave it the "2" ratings) stated in his opinion, it should never have been rated that low.  For someone without any expertise in volcanoes, we are at the mercy of those who make these decisions. 

[twangster]

1 minute ago, LMADAMS91 said:

Exactly the problem. Hindsight is easy. I was completely unaware that there wasn't a standard used for rating volcanoes......My nephew (again, a different viewpoint, different training, different experience than whomever gave it the "2" ratings) stated in his opinion, it should never have been rated that low.  For someone without any expertise in volcanoes, we are at the mercy of those who make these decisions. 

 

The rating system simply states current activity.  It is not a prediction of potential activity, simply the current activity level.  

 

https://www.geonet.org.nz/about/volcano/val

 

Only during an eruption would it be higher than 2.  By their own definition it can't be a 3 unless it is erupting.

 

They do offer this:

 

An eruption may occur at any level, and levels may not move in sequence as activity can change rapidly.

 

[LMADAMS91]

You're correct.  I misinterpreted what I was told.  My nephew's issue was that the volcano was at 2 and that this particular volcano has a history of a type of eruptions that are very difficult to predict. The history of the volcano's eruption type, its unpredictable nature and the increased activity prompting the increase to level 2 should have, in his opinion, warranted keeping people away.  Again, looking at it in hindsight and at this point, makes no difference in the outcome.  

 

[marci22]

9 hours ago, twangster said:

An eruption may occur at any level, and levels may not move in sequence as activity can change rapidly.

This is something that is really hard for many people to understand. They have been doing this tour for 30 years and maybe they could have done for another 30, but it didn't happen that way. At least they should red flag tours like this, put some kind of icon warning symbol to grab peoples' attention.

 

I would not have done this tour due to the description, but not because I would have been thinking an eruption would actually occur. Not logical, really. I would think, 'they've been doing it for 30 years it must be ok'. I just don't want to be around steaming pools of acid or however they described it.

[jennyumaa]

1 hour ago, marci22 said:

I would think, 'they've been doing it for 30 years it must be ok'. 

 

That's usually how I think too. There have been active warnings about Pompeii, Santorini, and Mount Rainier. Did not stop the millions of people going/living there.

[Hogbay]

another person has died , Rest In Peace . 17 victim's now

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/12/white-island-eruption-17th-victim-confirmed-dead.html

[SeaHunt]

1 hour ago, Hogbay said:

another person has died , Rest In Peace . 17 victim's now

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/12/white-island-eruption-17th-victim-confirmed-dead.html

 

So incredibly sad. And to think back when I started this thread I titled it with "possibly injured" (and hoping none were, and if so, only minor injuries) and now there are 17 dead. Just heartbreaking. 

[voyager70]

1 hour ago, Hogbay said:

another person has died , Rest In Peace . 17 victim's now

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/12/white-island-eruption-17th-victim-confirmed-dead.html

 

So sad.  Thoughts and prayers for the families.

 

[Hogbay]

6 hours ago, SeaHunt said:

 

So incredibly sad. And to think back when I started this thread I titled it with "possibly injured" (and hoping none were, and if so, only minor injuries) and now there are 17 dead. Just heartbreaking. 

Yes you did start this thread..But like the " Ledgeon Of The Falls " it's not the bear's fault or the water running in to the rock and freezing and cracking the rock .... they did have a good life living every minute...Rest In Peace  ...