Hand sanitizer versus hand washing

[dreaming girl]

With all the scare regarding spread of infection, I wanted to remind my cruise friends that hand sanitizers are not as effective as hand washing for 20 seconds. Hand sanitizers are not effective at all on some diarrhea illnesses. Norwegians newer cruise ships such as the Encore has sinks as you enter the buffet or observation area. I would highly recommend hand washing at the sinks versus the hand sanitizer washy washy. A little RN advice. 😊

[DarkJedi]

I'll second this reminder.

 

Soap and water also washes everything off of your hands. Sanitizers kill most, but not all, things but still leave anything on your hands on your hands.

[BirdTravels]

Soap and water only work if you allow them to work. On Royal ships, you get routed through the sink area and I have never, ever seen anyone spend sufficient time at the sink to wash anything off. Better off using the hand sanitizer than sprinkling water to get through the gauntlet. 

[Sdman36]

on the Dec cruise on the Jade they had you do both when entering buffet line.

[smplybcause]

Hand sanitizer kills some of the more innocuous bugs, but it doesn't kill norovirus. 

[fshagan]

21 minutes ago, smplybcause said:

Hand sanitizer kills some of the more innocuous bugs, but it doesn't kill norovirus. 

 

The hand sanitizer that NCL uses does indeed kill norovirus. There are several commercial products that do. 

 

The over the counter type you buy in the store usually doesn't. There are a couple of brands that the EPA has listed.

[Love my butler]

49 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

Soap and water only work if you allow them to work. On Royal ships, you get routed through the sink area and I have never, ever seen anyone spend sufficient time at the sink to wash anything off. Better off using the hand sanitizer than sprinkling water to get through the gauntlet. 

Completely wrong.  Hand sanitizer is almost worthless.  Washing your hands, even poorly is MUCH better than Purell and washy washy stuff.  The government just released a report recently stating that hand sanitizing products are very ineffective.

[hallux]

9 hours ago, dreaming girl said:

Norwegians newer cruise ships such as the Encore has sinks as you enter the buffet

Yeah, the Bliss (and I presume the Joy) has these.  Half of them didn't work, half of the soap dispensers didn't work.  Either that or the sensors were very difficult to trigger.  Better off using a restroom to wash then accepting the sanitizer as you enter.

[tef43]

Hand sanitizers are worthless.  They are right up there with bottled water and TSA-approved luggage locks.

[ziggyuk]

7 hours ago, fshagan said:

 

The hand sanitizer that NCL uses does indeed kill norovirus. There are several commercial products that do. 

 

The over the counter type you buy in the store usually doesn't. There are a couple of brands that the EPA has listed.

 

This one I use does kill norovirus, but even then it is still in addition to hand washing, never replacing.

 

 

 

[Caroldoll]

7 hours ago, fshagan said:

 

The hand sanitizer that NCL uses does indeed kill norovirus. There are several commercial products that do. 

 

The over the counter type you buy in the store usually doesn't. There are a couple of brands that the EPA has listed.

Can you purchase this hand sanitizer?  It is important to have one that kills Noro

[ziggyuk]

24 minutes ago, Caroldoll said:

Can you purchase this hand sanitizer?  It is important to have one that kills Noro

 

The one I listed kills Noro.

In the UK and can buy in Boots (for those here).

They have a website, that looks like it ships to the US, I put it in my cart but did not go further and they had US in the country list for the shipping address.

https://www.buyecohydra.com/collections/alcohol-free-instant-hand-sanitiser-range/products/alcohol-free-instant-hand-sanitiser-50ml

Edited February 6, 2020 by ziggyuk

[Homosassa]

The active ingredient in Ecohydra is benzalkonium chloride.

 

Benzalkonium chloride is commonly used as a preservative system (i.e,; used to help inhibit contamination during use after the product has already been sterilized) and not as a sterilization agent.

 

The solution strength of benzalkonium chloride needed to be a sterilization agent is too caustic for use  in or on the body.

 

It does work on most bacteria; the jury is out on viruses, fungi and protozoa.

 

A benzalkonium chloride hand sanitiser is effective when used after a through hand washing to help prevent incidental contamination.  Like any preservative system, it will become ineffective over time and be overwhelmed by microbes.

 

The product information for Ecohydra bases its reportedly effectiveness after a through hand washing.

 

Spend your money if you wish, but know that you are buying a product that requires through hand washing before its use to be effective.  

[smplybcause]

1 hour ago, ziggyuk said:

 

This one I use does kill norovirus, but even then it is still in addition to hand washing, never replacing.

 

 

 

 

The FDA is currently investigating going after companies that list that because it's false. What's the active ingredient? If it's alcohol - then it doesn't kill noro. From my research only bleach and hydrogen peroxide do. Are either of those in your sanitizer? 

[ziggyuk]

18 minutes ago, smplybcause said:

 

The FDA is currently investigating going after companies that list that because it's false. What's the active ingredient? If it's alcohol - then it doesn't kill noro. From my research only bleach and hydrogen peroxide do. Are either of those in your sanitizer? 

 

Alcohol free as printed in the picture.

How are you able to say it's false? especially as you need to ask the active ingredient!

 

It contains benzalkonium chloride and didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride which the manufacturers claim achieved a 99.2% kill rate in independent test against a norovirus.

 

Tha manufacturers also claim it is effective against E. Coli, SARS, Bird Flu, MRSA and Norovirus.

Edited February 6, 2020 by ziggyuk

[smplybcause]

19 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

 

Alcohol free as printed in the picture.

How are you able to say it's false? especially as you need to ask the active ingredient!

 

It contains benzalkonium chloride and didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride which the manufacturers claim achieved a 99.2% kill rate in independent test against a norovirus.

 

I'm able to say it's false because I've spent a lot of time researching legitimate sources and have not stumbled across any hand sanitizer that actually contains ingredients proven to kill noro. 

 

And the link you gave also says it works against the coronavirus. Which is how you know they're feeding you a bunch of crap. There's no way they could have actually tested their product against a new virus. Also, not listing the active ingredients on the site is another clue. 

 

The only legit research I can find about benzalkonium chloride and noro is one paper that says it might be effective at killing noro on surfaces. 1) your hands are not considered a surface and 2) it's rather high concentrations of it which I doubt is in the sanitizer at that level. 

 

As for the other, from the legit sources it shows up in that I can find it also is not strung enough to kill noro. 

 

Just because a manufacturer says something doesn't mean it's true. Especially for something that isn't regulated by any overseeing body like hand sanitizer. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by smplybcause

[ziggyuk]

25 minutes ago, smplybcause said:

 

And the link you gave also says it works against the coronavirus. Which is how you know they're feeding you a bunch of crap. There's no way they could have actually tested their product against a new virus. 

 

The only legit research I can find about benzalkonium chloride and noro is one paper that says it might be effective at killing noro on surfaces. 1) your hands are not considered a surface and 2) it's rather high concentrations of it which I doubt is in the sanitizer at that level. 

 

As for the other, from the legit sources it shows up in that I can find it also is not strung enough to kill noro. 

 

Just because a manufacturer says something doesn't mean it's true. Especially for something that isn't regulated by any overseeing body like hand sanitizer. 

 

Until I see something from an expert which you are clearly not, I will rely in my own research and not that of someone who did not even notice "Alcohol Free" in huge letters in the picture they quoted, and who decided it was fake before knowing the active ingredients.

 

Regulation on such claims is a little different in the UK but we will agree to disagree.

 

The claim it kills coronavirus will be the human starain of coronavirus and not Wuhan coronavirus which was not known until recently, human coronavirus had been known about for years it's Wuhan strain coronavirus that is new, see here:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10870648/dettol-coronavirus-wuhan-label/

 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by ziggyuk

[chengkp75]

19 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

 

Alcohol free as printed in the picture.

How are you able to say it's false? especially as you need to ask the active ingredient!

 

It contains benzalkonium chloride and didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride which the manufacturers claim achieved a 99.2% kill rate in independent test against a norovirus.

 

Tha manufacturers also claim it is effective against E. Coli, SARS, Bird Flu, MRSA and Norovirus.

I will grant that the applicable agencies in the UK might have different findings and different recommendations, but the FDA in the US (the agency that regulates hand sanitizers here) has listed exactly zero active ingredients in rub type hand sanitizers that it considers GRASE I (Generally Regarded As Safe and Effective) against really any bacteria or virus, and certainly not non-enveloped viruses like noro.  All active ingredients in sanitizers are in GRASE II, meaning they require additional data to prove safety and effectiveness.

[smplybcause]

45 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

 

Until I see something from an expert which you are clearly not, I will rely in my own research and not that of someone who did not even notice "Alcohol Free" in huge letters in the picture they quoted, and who decided it was fake before knowing the active ingredients.

 

Regulation on such claims is a little different in the UK but we will agree to disagree.

 

The claim it kills coronavirus will be the human starain of coronavirus and not Wuhan coronavirus which was not known until recently, human coronavirus had been known about for years it's Wuhan strain coronavirus that is new, see here:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10870648/dettol-coronavirus-wuhan-label/

 

 

 

Alcohol free or not, it's still a hand sanitizer and doesn't have ingredients that are known to kill noro in it.  

 

But sure take the word of someone trying to sell you something that they're right.

 

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, fshagan said:

 

The hand sanitizer that NCL uses does indeed kill norovirus. There are several commercial products that do. 

 

The over the counter type you buy in the store usually doesn't. There are a couple of brands that the EPA has listed.

While the EPA does in fact list several agents that are effective against noro, the EPA does not certify hand sanitizers, the FDA does, and the efficacy of the EPA agents depend on their concentration and contact time, and neither of these are present in hand rub type sanitizers.  As I've stated, at present, the FDA classes all hand rub type sanitizers as GRASE II, and have requested further data from manufacturers on the products testing for efficacy.

[Peachypooh]

We have started always just using the sinks. We make sure to spend the correct amount

of time washing up. I have to admit sometimes we are the only ones at the sinks.

[ColeThornton]

[Homosassa]

Chengp75:

 

You just had to open that can of  "GRAS/E" worms  🙄😁

 

In any case, benzalkonium chloride is classified as IIISE (needing safety and effectiveness data) and under a Federal Register announcement published on April 12, 2019 (effective April 13,2020), consumer antiseptic hand rubs containing benzalkonium chloride (along with a list of other covered ingredients) is not considered to be OTC (over the counter) and will need an approved New Dug Application or Abbreviated New Drug Application before being introduced or continuing to be allowed in interstate commerce in the USA.  Attached at the bottom of this post is a link to the Federal Register announcement. The announcement does go into detail about regulatory history, classification of the various chemicals, and testing methodology.

 

In any case, the announcement only covers the use in antimicrobial agents, specifically antibacterial products.

 

The use as an antiviral agent is more complex due to the morphological differences between bacterial (even then there are differences in Gram postive and gram negative species and structural variations) and viruses which make viruses more difficult to eliminate.

 

Any claims about anti-viral properties is strictly a marketing ploy. 

 

When I read the professional labeling for the Ecohydra product, it was interesting to note that the literature only cites the very outdated 1994 FDA requirements and is definitely not current with the required (at least in the USA) testing methodology. 

 

 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/04/12/2019-06791/safety-and-effectiveness-of-consumer-antiseptic-rubs-topical-antimicrobial-drug-products-for

[geegee1]

Not trying to stir up anything, but how about hand sanitizer wipes?  Are they better than the gel out of the bottle ones?

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, geegee1 said:

Not trying to stir up anything, but how about hand sanitizer wipes?  Are they better than the gel out of the bottle ones?

The only benefit of the wipes is that any bacteria or viruses loosened by the friction of hand rubbing and the lubrication of any inactive ingredient, would be transferred to the wipe and disposed of (though still active).  The dry in place gels and sprays don't remove anything.