Muster Drill

[sanger727]

13 minutes ago, leaveitallbehind said:

Don't get me wrong, fortunately most of ours have been indoors in recent years and it is certainly more comfortable - although still quite crowded. I just don't think passenger comfort is foremost in the planning of the most effective drill for a ship.

 

I'm certainly not saying I prefer them outdoors or not in comfortable environments, but I certainly would not select - or not select - a cruise based on a 20 minute drill that may or may not be inside.  

 

I completely agree that passenger comfort is not the main element to planning an effective drill. However, I've found that most mainstream cruise lines are more similar than different so it can often come down to the little differences that make my vacation experience better or worse to determine what cruises I will take in the future. For some people it's rock walls and water slides, for some people it's twice daily turn down and towel animals. I can take or leave both of those so they won't affect my cruising decisions. But general overcrowdedness from the muster drill to the buffet to the theater do affect my cruising experience. My take away from the one muster drill we did outside is I wasn't interested in doing that again.  My take away from the one cruise we did on the Norwegian Epic was that ship was overcrowded and we weren't interested in doing that again. In a field of choice overload, I don't see a problem with reducing the number of choices based on preferences. And no doubt, my preferences are different than yours.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

I understand comfort is way down in importance, but if stacking people for the drill is the norm and this is proven to be a invitation to viruses, doesn't it make sense to do it another way? I remember at least once having it indoors, and then we were led to where the lifeboat was for our muster.

 

And in a true emergency, as opposed to a drill, I realize the passengers would be packed even tighter. But that would be for an emergency which would change priorities.

I am sure could be possible to “... do it another way...” —- but it would require legislation , in many jurisdictions, before that “other way” could be implemented.

 

In the meanwhile, a much quicker solution to the underlying problem could be implemented:  simply ban cruises as unnecessary travel  until effective immunization vaccine can be developed.   Short of that, simply add a surcharge - perhaps $100 per day of the cruise to each fare to fund the testing and quarantine now necessitated by the continuation of such non-essential exposure ——- in much the same way as TSA costs are funded by airfare supplements.

[SRF]

22 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

But these things cannot be changed.  Those ships that hold muster indoors have been allowed to by the class societies because there is simply not enough room on the promenade decks under the boats.  Once a ship has been designed and the locations of the muster stations determined, they will not be changed over the life of the ship.

 

My cruise departing 1/31 on Grandeur of the Seas, they moved the muster drill indoors due to the weather.

[chengkp75]

35 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

My cruise departing 1/31 on Grandeur of the Seas, they moved the muster drill indoors due to the weather.

There are always alternate muster locations in case the primary one is unusable.

[GlamorousGirl]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

I am sure could be possible to “... do it another way...” —- but it would require legislation , in many jurisdictions, before that “other way” could be implemented.

 

In the meanwhile, a much quicker solution to the underlying problem could be implemented:  simply ban cruises as unnecessary travel  until effective immunization vaccine can be developed.   Short of that, simply add a surcharge - perhaps $100 per day of the cruise to each fare to fund the testing and quarantine now necessitated by the continuation of such non-essential exposure ——- in much the same way as TSA costs are funded by airfare supplements.

If you’re going to do that then charge everyone $100 that goes to a concert, sports event, movie theater, subway train... etc. etc. There’s more people off ships than on spreading this. Cruise ships should not be singled out. And people should not be charged for meaningless quarantines that aren’t working, especially when they aren’t even sick. People who think they’re safe on land need a wake up call.

[Aplmac]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I've always said that lifeboat capacity was based on Filipino crew.

The 87kg size was only upgraded a few years back from 75kg. 

When I worked in the offshore oilfield, we decided one day

to try to stuff the capacity into a 65 man totally enclosed lifeboat,

using "typical" oilfield workers. 

 

By stuffing them in like a clown car,

and with guys dangerously close to the engine exhaust pipe,

we got only 56 in.  Cruisers, particularly US cruisers would be similar.

 

^ That's shocking!! ^

 

I've always thought those lifeboat numbers (on the hull) to be wildly impractical.

Your experiment proves it!! I'm glad we had this conversation

and thank you for sharing!! Sure hope cruise lines see this

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, Aplmac said:

 

^ That's shocking!! ^

 

I've always thought those lifeboat numbers (on the hull) to be wildly impractical.

Your experiment proves it!! I'm glad we had this conversation

and thank you for sharing!! Sure hope cruise lines see this

Doesn't matter.  The capacity of the boats is set by international law, and the number of boats and rafts to accommodate everyone is also set by law, and they are no way going to add more equipment than the law allows.

[Aplmac]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Doesn't matter. 

The capacity of the boats is set by international law,

and the number of boats and rafts to accommodate everyone

is also set by law, and they are no way going to add more equipment

than the law allows.

 

OK. Understood.

 

But judging from your experiment with clown-car loading

I'm guessing there might still be a few folks left over with no lifeboat.

 

Luckily for Costa Concordia,

they were close to shore and she didn't totally sink.

 

Out in the ocean fer real, it could get messy for those left behind.
or will they fit on inflatable crew rafts?

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, Aplmac said:

 

OK. Understood.

 

But judging from your experiment with clown-car loading

I'm guessing there might still be a few folks left over with no lifeboat.

 

Luckily for Costa Concordia,

they were close to shore and she didn't totally sink.

 

Out in the ocean fer real, it could get messy for those left behind.
or will they fit on inflatable crew rafts?

As stated before, the total required capacity of boats and rafts is 125% of all souls (pax and crew), so there are always more.

 

I will add that the bulk of the oilfield workers was increased greatly by having them wear the required "survival suit", which is an overly bulky drysuit.

Edited March 10, 2020 by chengkp75

[Aplmac]

Just now, chengkp75 said:

As stated before,

the total required capacity of boats and rafts is 125% of all souls

(pax and crew), so there are always more.

 

Oh sorry I missed that detail!

I am greatly relieved to learn there is 25% over-capacity! Thank you.

[bbwex]

In most cases, I think there are rafts that almost double the 100% of the solid liferafts. 

 

As for all of the complaints, bear in mind that the muster drill, as chengkp75 has amply pointed out, is there for a reason.  If the worst does happen, time really is of the essence.  While the Titanic had time to get its passengers into lifeboats, if they had had them, sometimes time is much shorter, i.e. MV Estonia or, more recently, the Costa Concordia.  Odds are that nothing is going to happen, but if it does you will be very glad that you had the drill.  Past incidents have created the laws that are on the books.  The international community has tried to learn from each disaster.  Most recently, Costa Concordia taught us that skipping the muster drill for a day until the next partial load of passengers embarked was a bad decision, and they tightened up the rules.  It had been too inconvenient to do them so often! 

 

Folks, when all things are going well, life is easy.  When the fertilizer hits the ventilator, training and experience are crucial.  You don't train and drill for the normal daily activities. You train and drill for the emergencies and just hope that you never need that training.

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, bbwex said:

In most cases, I think there are rafts that almost double the 100% of the solid liferafts. 

 

As for all of the complaints, bear in mind that the muster drill, as chengkp75 has amply pointed out, is there for a reason.  If the worst does happen, time really is of the essence.  While the Titanic had time to get its passengers into lifeboats, if they had had them, sometimes time is much shorter, i.e. MV Estonia or, more recently, the Costa Concordia.  Odds are that nothing is going to happen, but if it does you will be very glad that you had the drill.  Past incidents have created the laws that are on the books.  The international community has tried to learn from each disaster.  Most recently, Costa Concordia taught us that skipping the muster drill for a day until the next partial load of passengers embarked was a bad decision, and they tightened up the rules.  It had been too inconvenient to do them so often! 

 

Folks, when all things are going well, life is easy.  When the fertilizer hits the ventilator, training and experience are crucial.  You don't train and drill for the normal daily activities. You train and drill for the emergencies and just hope that you never need that training.

I think you mean the solid "lifeboats"?  But, no, lifeboats will make up about 75% of all souls onboard, and the rafts make up another 50%, for a total of 125%.

 

In the Concordia case, the main cause for loss of life was not that they had not held a passenger muster prior to sailing, it was simply and directly related to Schettino (I refuse to give him a title) failing to sound the muster in a timely fashion.  The crew were following orders and sending pax away from the muster locations.  Passenger muster should be called long before any decision to evacuate the ship is even considered, which in the Concordia's case was over 45 minutes before Schettino called for "abandon ship", which was also the wrong thing to do, as this releases crew from their emergency duties (such as directing and assisting passengers to the boats).  Passenger muster is not about the boats.  It is about "herding the cats" into known, limited, and controlled locations so that an accountability can be made, and missing passengers searched for.

[bbwex]

35 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I think you mean the solid "lifeboats"?  But, no, lifeboats will make up about 75% of all souls onboard, and the rafts make up another 50%, for a total of 125%.

 

In the Concordia case, the main cause for loss of life was not that they had not held a passenger muster prior to sailing, it was simply and directly related to Schettino (I refuse to give him a title) failing to sound the muster in a timely fashion.  The crew were following orders and sending pax away from the muster locations.  Passenger muster should be called long before any decision to evacuate the ship is even considered, which in the Concordia's case was over 45 minutes before Schettino called for "abandon ship", which was also the wrong thing to do, as this releases crew from their emergency duties (such as directing and assisting passengers to the boats).  Passenger muster is not about the boats.  It is about "herding the cats" into known, limited, and controlled locations so that an accountability can be made, and missing passengers searched for.

Well, Costa Concordia is unquestionably weird.  I have taught a course on cruise ship incidents, and I put this case is a class of its own.  The list of bad decisions by Schettino is long and awful, and not worth going into here.  I was using the case simply to point out that some people had not had a muster drill at all in an effort to make them less onerous.  Whether that contributed to any specific loss of life or injury is unknown.  The point I was trying to make was that we never know what is going to happen.  Train for the worst, hope for the best.

[ontheweb]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Again, the legal requirement is for all passengers to be physically at their muster stations.  Also, those muster locations are not randomly chosen by the cruise line or the ship designer.  The preferred location per the IMO and SOLAS is as close to the boats as possible, and any location is checked and tested for various conditions (power, lighting, ventilation, space, ingress and egress locations and numbers, distance to boats, etc), and are basically set in stone once the ship design is approved by the class societies for the flag state.  And, if you are going to modify the muster locations, on a temporary basis during this outbreak, how do you notify the passengers and crew of these changes?  These things are hard printed on the cabin doors, and in the direction arrows for each muster station.  You're now going to suddenly say to thousands of people, "disregard the signs" and follow the piece of paper we handed out at check-in, but know that in a real emergency that won't be your actual emergency station.  Chaos will reign.

The one thing I will disagree with is the problem of the printed instructions on the cabin doors. It should not be that difficult to make new signs and attach them to the door.

 

On all the other problems you cite, I will bow to your knowledge and experience.

[navybankerteacher]

5 hours ago, GlamorousGirl said:

If you’re going to do that then charge everyone $100 that goes to a concert, sports event, movie theater, subway train... etc. etc. There’s more people off ships than on spreading this. Cruise ships should not be singled out. And people should not be charged for meaningless quarantines that aren’t working, especially when they aren’t even sick. People who think they’re safe on land need a wake up call.

And where did you pick up your expertise in epidemiology?    Your broad conclusion that

”...meaningless quarantines that aren’t working...” might come as a surprise to the professionals in the field. 

 

If you were alert enough to pay attention, you would be aware that  concerts and sports events are being cancelled - along with schools and universities being closed, parades being cancelled, even the Boston branch of the Federal Reserve Bank is closed.

 

What possible reason can you show to keep cruises (which are the epitomy of non-essential travel) not being cancelled — or, at the very leased taxed to provide the necessary funds to clean up after their pointless  excursions where thousands of people can cross-infect and bring contagion to new areas?

[pacruise804]

14 hours ago, bbwex said:

 

 

Folks, when all things are going well, life is easy.  When the fertilizer hits the ventilator, training and experience are crucial.  You don't train and drill for the normal daily activities. You train and drill for the emergencies and just hope that you never need that training.

 

While this is a serious topic, I want to interject that I love your rewording and am definitely borrowing it 😉 

 

[bbwex]

3 hours ago, pacruise804 said:

 

While this is a serious topic, I want to interject that I love your rewording and am definitely borrowing it 😉 

 

No extra charge for that!!!  BTW we do need to keep our act clean for CC!