Muster Drill

[Cruzaholic41]

This is getting dumb. It can’t be changed. Period. Get over it. 

[KroozNut]

7 hours ago, johno1234 said:

 

Wow, that's interesting. 

 

It could be argued that on the vessels I've had outdoor muster, that there wasn't  enough room on the deck there either!

 

 

But that's a lame argument... at best!

[johno1234]

2 hours ago, KroozNut said:

 

But that's a lame argument... at best!

Well that's your opinion and you're fully entitled to it.

 

Mine is that if the muster area has insufficient space for people to be in a healthy and comfortable amount of personal space (in a sweltering tropical climate) i.e. not pressed shoulder to shoulder, and no room for seats for the many elderly or infirm passengers to sit... then yes, I would argue that is insufficient space.

 

[johno1234]

3 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

Yes, and I agree with him.  It would be a major overhaul to change the muster stations, if even possible at all.  And as stated earlier, you have to report in person.  The truth is, if things have become so bad that it's dangerous to conduct a safety drill, the cruise itself is no longer a viable option.  

They could run the muster in two shifts - odd number cabins then evens for instance. Half the people each time would be quite a bit better.

 

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, johno1234 said:

Well that's your opinion and you're fully entitled to it.

 

Mine is that if the muster area has insufficient space for people to be in a healthy and comfortable amount of personal space (in a sweltering tropical climate) i.e. not pressed shoulder to shoulder, and no room for seats for the many elderly or infirm passengers to sit... then yes, I would argue that is insufficient space.

 

Well, the international powers that be have decided that comfort, whether being crammed together, or sweltering in heat, is secondary to the efficient saving of life in an actual emergency, and it is a known fact of emergency training that the more like the real thing you make it, the more effective the training is.  Nearly every ship has a "special needs" muster location for those who have disabilities, that include being indoors, offer seating, and most have a nurse standing by that station.

 

Besides, what is to preclude the possibility that the restaurant that is your muster location is not the scene of the fire?

[Aplmac]

If you guys think you're overcrowded at Muster

just wait til they cram 150 of you in a lifeboat the size of my kitchen!

 

You will be cheek-by-jowl as they say, no showers, no Bar, no Lido
no deodorant -sounds like great fun!

 

[Cee_Jay]

let me get this right......prom. deck..3ft apart...thats a single row mostly.....4,500 passengers.....thats 2.55 miles....awful lot going to drown......

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, johno1234 said:

They could run the muster in two shifts - odd number cabins then evens for instance. Half the people each time would be quite a bit better.

 

One of the main purposes of the passenger muster drill is that it is the only real life time that crew get trained in "herding the cats" into order.  Now, if half of the passengers are responding to drill, what do the other half do?  Wait in their cabins?  How many do you think will do that?  Then, the crew who are assigned to direct passengers to their muster station are not going to know which half of the passengers any one passenger belongs to, so they will have to take time from their duties to question each and every passenger as to whether they are going to drill or to the bar.  And, since there will be traffic going one way to the muster locations, and traffic going other directions around the ship, it will become even more chaotic than a normal muster drill.  And, the elevators will be shut down for both drills, so those not participating in the drill will have to use the stairs, possibly going up stairs that during an emergency (or the drill) would be only for going down.  Not a practical solution.

 

And, as a FYI, "Aquahound" is a USCG marine incident investigator.  He knows about safety, emergencies, and training.

[chengkp75]

38 minutes ago, Aplmac said:

If you guys think you're overcrowded at Muster

just wait til they cram 150 of you in a lifeboat the size of my kitchen!

 

You will be cheek-by-jowl as they say, no showers, no Bar, no Lido
no deodorant -sounds like great fun!

 

 

 

You forgot to mention that the "toilet" is hanging your exposed butt out the door and over the side.  And the puke bags are the bilges around your feet and pumped out using the hand powered bilge pump.  Lifeboat accommodation is based on a 87kg person, and measure 18" wide and 24" from knee to back, and there are no aisles.

[Aplmac]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

You forgot to mention

that the "toilet" is hanging your exposed butt out the door and over the side.

And the puke bags are the bilges around your feet

- pumped out using the hand powered bilge pump. 

 

Lifeboat accommodation is based on a 87kg person,

and measure 18" wide and 24" from knee to back, and there are no aisles.

 

Sounds like the average Disco after midnight Saturday

getting into Early Sunday morning! - LOL

 

...when..

[Essiesmom]

5 hours ago, johno1234 said:

They could run the muster in two shifts - odd number cabins then evens for instance. Half the people each time would be quite a bit better.

 

How would that improve things?  Odd cabins are on one side, evens on the other.  So al the odds would be going to the same side of the ship, evens to the other.  More efficient would be to do it by deck.  EM

[navybankerteacher]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

You forgot to mention that the "toilet" is hanging your exposed butt out the door and over the side.  And the puke bags are the bilges around your feet and pumped out using the hand powered bilge pump.  Lifeboat accommodation is based on a 87kg person, and measure 18" wide and 24" from knee to back, and there are no aisles.

That 18” wide could be a problem - have you noticed the hips on the majority of cruisers?

[navybankerteacher]

How about the 370 butts shoehorned into the lifeboats on Oasis of the Seas?

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

That 18” wide could be a problem - have you noticed the hips on the majority of cruisers?

I've always said that lifeboat capacity was based on Filipino crew.  The 87kg size was only upgraded a few years back from 75kg.  When I worked in the offshore oilfield, we decided one day to try to stuff the capacity into a 65 man totally enclosed lifeboat, using "typical" oilfield workers.  By stuffing them in like a clown car, and with guys dangerously close to the engine exhaust pipe, we got 56 in.  Cruisers, particularly US cruisers would be similar.

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

How about the 370 butts shoehorned into the lifeboats on Oasis of the Seas?

Ah, but everyone tells you there is a toilet in that boat.  Yep, toilet, no "bathroom".  Modesty right out the window.  Plus having to crawl over the hundred or so folks to get to the toilet.

[sanger727]

2 hours ago, Essiesmom said:

How would that improve things?  Odd cabins are on one side, evens on the other.  So al the odds would be going to the same side of the ship, evens to the other.  More efficient would be to do it by deck.  EM

I was thinking the person meant to keep all the muster stations and locations the same. But odd cabin numbers within the muster station report at 3pm and even cabin numbers within the muster station report at 4pm. I understand chengkp75's objections to this working. However, I still think that if they could work the logistics out and it was viable legally it would must the muster drills temporarily safer and permanently more comfortable. I've mustered once on deck. It was the most miserable experience I've ever had on vacation. It was enough that I wouldn't intentionally book another cruise if I knew they mustered on deck. Luckily, the remaining cruises I've been on mustered in the theater which is infinitely more comfortable. 

[leaveitallbehind]

20 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

However, I still think that if they could work the logistics out and it was viable legally it would must the muster drills temporarily safer and permanently more comfortable. I've mustered once on deck. It was the most miserable experience I've ever had on vacation. It was enough that I wouldn't intentionally book another cruise if I knew they mustered on deck. Luckily, the remaining cruises I've been on mustered in the theater which is infinitely more comfortable. 

Muster is not intended to be comfortable. It is intended to be instructional in terms of where and when you are to go in an emergency with the ultimate goal of saving your life should an emergency exist.  More importantly it is intended to be performed in a manner by which the crew can best coordinate a timely passenger evacuation and get you to your lifeboat under those circumstances.  I am certain the maritime industry has evaluated all best options for the different ships and has implemented those particular drills accordingly. I will trust that judgement.

Edited March 10, 2020 by leaveitallbehind

[sanger727]

1 minute ago, leaveitallbehind said:

Muster is not intended to be comfortable. It is intended to be instructional in terms of where and when you are to go in an emergency with the ultimate goal of saving your life should an emergency exist.  More importantly it is intended to be performed in a manner by which the crew can best coordinate a timely passenger evacuation and get you to your lifeboat under those circumstances.  I am certain the maritime industry has evaluated all best options for the different ships and has implemented those particular drills accordingly. I will trust that judgement.

 

It's not instructional when you are crammed at the back of 3 rows of people, sweating profusely, unable to hear anything, and just counting the minutes until it is done. Sitting in a theater where you can see, listen to whoever is speaking over a microphone, and not be distracted by trying avoid being crushed by the mass of people around you is a much better environment for hearing instructions. IMO, you are free to have your own. But as long as there as options to cruise on ships where the muster is done inside, that is what I will choose to do.

[Aplmac]

3 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

How about the 370 butts shoehorned into the lifeboats on Oasis of the Seas?

 

You have photos? LOL!

 

.

 

Can you imagine....?

[Aplmac]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Ah, but everyone tells you there is a toilet in that boat. 

Yep, toilet, no "bathroom".  Modesty right out the window. 

Plus having to crawl over the hundred or so folks

to get to the toilet. ===> Are we having fun yet?

 

People have NOOOO idea...

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

It's not instructional when you are crammed at the back of 3 rows of people, sweating profusely, unable to hear anything, and just counting the minutes until it is done. Sitting in a theater where you can see, listen to whoever is speaking over a microphone, and not be distracted by trying avoid being crushed by the mass of people around you is a much better environment for hearing instructions. IMO, you are free to have your own. But as long as there as options to cruise on ships where the muster is done inside, that is what I will choose to do.

While the cruise lines want to fill the time during muster, by giving "instructions" and "safety hints", there is really only two things a passenger needs to learn from the muster drill:  Show up (where is your muster station, and how do I get there), and Shut up.  In an emergency, that is all that will matter.

 

And, if there is a fire in the vertical fire zone where your muster station is, even if it is 7 decks above the muster location, all of the power and ventilation in that fire zone will be secured, so that muster station becomes unusable, and you will typically have to muster outside.  Now, I understand your problem is with the drill, and not with an actual emergency, but just a thought about indoor musters.  As noted, comfort is not an overriding concern with emergency situations or emergency training.

[ontheweb]

16 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

While the cruise lines want to fill the time during muster, by giving "instructions" and "safety hints", there is really only two things a passenger needs to learn from the muster drill:  Show up (where is your muster station, and how do I get there), and Shut up.  In an emergency, that is all that will matter.

 

And, if there is a fire in the vertical fire zone where your muster station is, even if it is 7 decks above the muster location, all of the power and ventilation in that fire zone will be secured, so that muster station becomes unusable, and you will typically have to muster outside.  Now, I understand your problem is with the drill, and not with an actual emergency, but just a thought about indoor musters.  As noted, comfort is not an overriding concern with emergency situations or emergency training.

I understand comfort is way down in importance, but if stacking people for the drill is the norm and this is proven to be a invitation to viruses, doesn't it make sense to do it another way? I remember at least once having it indoors, and then we were led to where the lifeboat was for our muster.

 

And in a true emergency, as opposed to a drill, I realize the passengers would be packed even tighter. But that would be for an emergency which would change priorities.

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I understand comfort is way down in importance, but if stacking people for the drill is the norm and this is proven to be a invitation to viruses, doesn't it make sense to do it another way? I remember at least once having it indoors, and then we were led to where the lifeboat was for our muster.

 

And in a true emergency, as opposed to a drill, I realize the passengers would be packed even tighter. But that would be for an emergency which would change priorities.

Again, the legal requirement is for all passengers to be physically at their muster stations.  Also, those muster locations are not randomly chosen by the cruise line or the ship designer.  The preferred location per the IMO and SOLAS is as close to the boats as possible, and any location is checked and tested for various conditions (power, lighting, ventilation, space, ingress and egress locations and numbers, distance to boats, etc), and are basically set in stone once the ship design is approved by the class societies for the flag state.  And, if you are going to modify the muster locations, on a temporary basis during this outbreak, how do you notify the passengers and crew of these changes?  These things are hard printed on the cabin doors, and in the direction arrows for each muster station.  You're now going to suddenly say to thousands of people, "disregard the signs" and follow the piece of paper we handed out at check-in, but know that in a real emergency that won't be your actual emergency station.  Chaos will reign.

[leaveitallbehind]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

 

It's not instructional when you are crammed at the back of 3 rows of people, sweating profusely, unable to hear anything, and just counting the minutes until it is done. Sitting in a theater where you can see, listen to whoever is speaking over a microphone, and not be distracted by trying avoid being crushed by the mass of people around you is a much better environment for hearing instructions. IMO, you are free to have your own. But as long as there as options to cruise on ships where the muster is done inside, that is what I will choose to do.

Don't get me wrong, fortunately most of ours have been indoors in recent years and it is certainly more comfortable - although still quite crowded. I just don't think passenger comfort is foremost in the planning of the most effective drill for a ship.

 

I'm certainly not saying I prefer them outdoors or not in comfortable environments, but I certainly would not select - or not select - a cruise based on a 20 minute drill that may or may not be inside.  

[pacruise804]

On 3/9/2020 at 10:20 AM, GlamorousGirl said:

Not altering the muster drill procedures under these circumstances is totally irresponsible. If someone chooses to put themselves at risk going to a crowded party on the lido deck or using the buffet that’s on them. But if we are forced to put ourselves at risk at mandatory crowded muster drills that’s on them. It should be delivered virtually by tv, requiring everyone to stay in the cabin while it’s broadcast to help make sure they watch it, if that’s what they’re worried about. I’m seriously considering not going to it. Don’t know what my “punishment” will be, but it’s got to be better than potentially dying from coronavirus.

 

If you are truly concerned about contracting COVID-19 on your cruise then you probably shouldn't go.  There will be crowded situations that will be difficult to avoid and you may be setting yourself up for a false sense of security if you are assuming only the large crowds are potential areas for contagion. 

 

13 hours ago, GlamorousGirl said:

What good is a safety drill that puts your safety at risk? Right now you’re more likely to get coronavirus than needing to evacuate a sinking ship. If the objective is passenger safety then the muster drill needs to be delivered in a safer way. Maybe stagger a greater number of them to reduce the health risk associated with being in such a huge crowd.

 

As ChEngKP mentioned, passenger safety is only one part of the muster drill:

One of the main purposes of the passenger muster drill is that it is the only real life time that crew get trained in "herding the cats" into order. 

If there is an emergency, I want the crew to be as prepared as possible to deal with it - even if that means an uncomfortable 20-40 minutes of "show up and shut up" while waiting for others to do the same.

 

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

 

It's not instructional when you are crammed at the back of 3 rows of people, sweating profusely, unable to hear anything, and just counting the minutes until it is done. Sitting in a theater where you can see, listen to whoever is speaking over a microphone, and not be distracted by trying avoid being crushed by the mass of people around you is a much better environment for hearing instructions. IMO, you are free to have your own. But as long as there as options to cruise on ships where the muster is done inside, that is what I will choose to do.

Again, as I quoted ChEngKP above, the instructions are only in part for us passengers.  I've participated in muster stations indoors, on deck, and combinations of both.  Even in the theatre with a full movie of instructions there are people who won't pay attention and listen.