Aus Traveller Posted April 11, 2020 #1 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Here is a link to an ABC article where Border Force confirms there was a phone call from the Sydney Port Authority expressing concern about the health of passengers on the Ruby Princess. Border Force confirms it phoned the Port Authority back and advised that NSW Health had given the green light to have the ship dock and passengers disembark. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-08/coronavirus-abf-reveal-late-night-phone-call-about-ruby-princess/12134870 BTW, let's not name anyone who may, or may not have been involved in this incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Kruzer Posted April 11, 2020 #2 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Cartoon from this mornings NZ Herald..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiamondFour Posted April 11, 2020 #3 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Here is another articles detailing how the Port Authority and Border Force allowed the Ovation of the Seas to dock and disembark guests in Sydney the day before Ruby Princess. Some guests on Ovation of the Seas later proved to be infected with the same virus that originated in china. https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/coronavirus/how-another-cruise-ship-was-able-to-dock-in-australia-with-sick-passengers-onboard-who-were-then-allowed-to-leave-without-being-checked-for-deadly-coronavirus-in-eerie-similarity-to-the-ruby-princess-debacle/ar-BB12rpOl?li=AAgfLCP&ocid=mailsignout 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christodan Posted April 11, 2020 #4 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Have you seen this today? https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-ill-fated-journey-of-cruise-ship-the-ruby-princess-20200410-p54iu5.html#comments Interesting that one passenger who booked direct received a text message from Princess with an email about a refund for a change of mind, but another passenger who booked through an agent seemed to not receive the offer and said was told everything is fine. This is where some communication may have broken down as well. Makes me think it is better to always book directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By The Bay Posted April 11, 2020 #5 Share Posted April 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, christodan said: Have you seen this today? https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-ill-fated-journey-of-cruise-ship-the-ruby-princess-20200410-p54iu5.html#comments Interesting that one passenger who booked direct received a text message from Princess with an email about a refund for a change of mind, but another passenger who booked through an agent seemed to not receive the offer and said was told everything is fine. This is where some communication may have broken down as well. Makes me think it is better to always book directly. Agree with booking direct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushka Posted April 11, 2020 #6 Share Posted April 11, 2020 (edited) Maybe check out the guardian link I posted earlier to see how Princess corporate structure has protected itself. Carnival Australia never existed as a legal entity. Edited April 11, 2020 by Pushka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By The Bay Posted April 11, 2020 #7 Share Posted April 11, 2020 16 minutes ago, Pushka said: Maybe check out the guardian link I posted earlier to see how Princess corporate structure has protected itself. Carnival Australia never existed as a legal entity. This from Princess's T&C's. Note 2rd paragraph. 38. Choice of law and jurisdiction This contract is governed by the laws in force in New South Wales. You agree that any action You bring against Us will be brought in New South Wales, Australia. If You have a claim against Us, You agree only to bring action against Us and not any of Our related bodies corporate as defined in the Corporations Act 2001(Cth). 1. Introduction We/Our/Us means Carnival plc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Traveller Posted April 11, 2020 Author #8 Share Posted April 11, 2020 32 minutes ago, christodan said: Have you seen this today? https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-ill-fated-journey-of-cruise-ship-the-ruby-princess-20200410-p54iu5.html#comments Interesting that one passenger who booked direct received a text message from Princess with an email about a refund for a change of mind, but another passenger who booked through an agent seemed to not receive the offer and said was told everything is fine. This is where some communication may have broken down as well. Makes me think it is better to always book directly. The SMH article is very interesting. BTW, there are a couple of errors in the reporting. One is as follows: On Sunday evening, March 15, as the ship steamed north, there was a shock announcement. Carnival had already declared the previous day that it would pause its Australian operations for a month but said ships still at sea could continue their voyages and return to Sydney as scheduled. Ruby Princess returned from NZ because Princess Cruises announced a 60 'pause' on 12th March, it wasn't because of the 30-day pause announced by Carnival Cruises, three days later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Traveller Posted April 11, 2020 Author #9 Share Posted April 11, 2020 32 minutes ago, Pushka said: Maybe check out the guardian link I posted earlier to see how Princess corporate structure has protected itself. Carnival Australia never existed as a legal entity. Does it matter that 'Carnival Australia' doesn't exist as a legal entity? Princess Cruises is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation. As shareholders of Carnival Corp we receive benefits when we cruise on the cruise-lines it owns, Princess being one of them. With all the disclaimers and protections written into the cruise contract, it would not be an easy task to win in a legal case against Carnival Corp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christodan Posted April 11, 2020 #10 Share Posted April 11, 2020 9 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said: Does it matter that 'Carnival Australia' doesn't exist as a legal entity? Princess Cruises is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation. As shareholders of Carnival Corp we receive benefits when we cruise on the cruise-lines it owns, Princess being one of them. With all the disclaimers and protections written into the cruise contract, it would not be an easy task to win in a legal case against Carnival Corp. Agree with your last point. But I also think some of the claims made by passengers that I saw on commercial TV channels seemed highly dubious. And the claim in the SMH that the passenger asked a Carnival Staff member if it was safe to catch a train??? Really and who was that ? Someone at the buffet counter or the cabin attendant? Why would any sea crew know anything about what to do on land anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbenjo Posted April 11, 2020 #11 Share Posted April 11, 2020 59 minutes ago, DiamondFour said: Here is another articles detailing how the Port Authority and Border Force allowed the Ovation of the Seas to dock and disembark guests in Sydney the day before Ruby Princess. Some guests on Ovation of the Seas later proved to be infected with the same virus that originated in china. https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/coronavirus/how-another-cruise-ship-was-able-to-dock-in-australia-with-sick-passengers-onboard-who-were-then-allowed-to-leave-without-being-checked-for-deadly-coronavirus-in-eerie-similarity-to-the-ruby-princess-debacle/ar-BB12rpOl?li=AAgfLCP&ocid=mailsignout No big deal but the second photo in this article shows pax walking with luggage past the opera house steps. They are not from the Ovation but were some of the first responders leaving the Spectrum from the Man o War steps after their thank you cruise. As I said, no big deal but if they continually get photos wrong, how much of the story has “inaccuracies” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare OzKiwiJJ Posted April 11, 2020 #12 Share Posted April 11, 2020 1 minute ago, christodan said: Agree with your last point. But I also think some of the claims made by passengers that I saw on commercial TV channels seemed highly dubious. And the claim in the SMH that the passenger asked a Carnival Staff member if it was safe to catch a train??? Really and who was that ? Someone at the buffet counter or the cabin attendant? Why would any sea crew know anything about what to do on land anyway? Or even one of the cruise terminal people. I also noticed that that same person claimed the disembarkation was rushed and disorderly. That the pace had changed from leisurely to " let's get everyone off the ship". I wonder how much cruising that person has done? I've never seen a disorderly Princess disembarkation, although it can seem chaotic at times when everyone is trying to use the lifts at the same time. Yes, passengers aren't encouraged to linger on the ship so that could be seen as "let's get everyone off the ship" by a newbie cruiser but that's standard procedure as normally new passengers would be embarking in a few hours. I've also witnessed the rush of self-disembarking passengers who want or need to get off the ship as early and as quickly as they can. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushka Posted April 11, 2020 #13 Share Posted April 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Aus Traveller said: Does it matter that 'Carnival Australia' doesn't exist as a legal entity? Princess Cruises is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation. As shareholders of Carnival Corp we receive benefits when we cruise on the cruise-lines it owns, Princess being one of them. With all the disclaimers and protections written into the cruise contract, it would not be an easy task to win in a legal case against Carnival Corp. Of course it matters in legal situations like this. This is rather relevant. ‘ Nor did he respond when asked when Sherry ceased to be chairman of Carnival Australia, how she could be an officer of an entity that does not exist and how the group’s local operation was structured.’ I can’t get to the ‘He’ mentioned here as I’m on the iPhone but it is a relevant Carnival rep. It’s from the link above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell21 Posted April 11, 2020 #14 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Carnival Australia is a Trading Name which should be registered by Carnival plc. There does not have to be a company called Carnival Australia. For example I could register and work under 'KALULAH KAPERS" as a sole trader without a company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushka Posted April 11, 2020 #15 Share Posted April 11, 2020 12 minutes ago, Russell21 said: Carnival Australia is a Trading Name which should be registered by Carnival plc. There does not have to be a company called Carnival Australia. For example I could register and work under 'KALULAH KAPERS" as a sole trader without a company. ASIC requires employees Titles to match with the legalities of the organisation. We have several business names trading under the one PTY LTD umbrella but we can’t call ourselves CE or Chairman of ABC Business Name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Traveller Posted April 11, 2020 Author #16 Share Posted April 11, 2020 54 minutes ago, Pushka said: Of course it matters in legal situations like this. This is rather relevant. ‘ Nor did he respond when asked when Sherry ceased to be chairman of Carnival Australia, how she could be an officer of an entity that does not exist and how the group’s local operation was structured.’ I can’t get to the ‘He’ mentioned here as I’m on the iPhone but it is a relevant Carnival rep. It’s from the link above. Anyone wanting to sue as a result of recent events will sue the owner of the cruise line, the trading name is irrelevant. A Business Name exists, it is just a different legal structure from a corporation (company). In the scheme of things, it doesn't matter how Carnival Corp and Carnival plc structure their company. It does not protect them from being sued. There is an article about Cruise Line Industry Association awards last month where Ann Sherry was described as the "former CEO of Carnival Australia". It is mentioned elsewhere that she left that job in March, 2019. Ms Sherry was an employee, not an owner of the cruiselines, so no-one would be suing her personally. I can't see that it matters that she has moved on from that job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Traveller Posted April 11, 2020 Author #17 Share Posted April 11, 2020 35 minutes ago, Russell21 said: Carnival Australia is a Trading Name which should be registered by Carnival plc. There does not have to be a company called Carnival Australia. For example I could register and work under 'KALULAH KAPERS" as a sole trader without a company. That is what I did for several years, although I had a different name (not Kalulah Kapers!!). As the business grew, there were advantages to incorporate a company that was then the legal owner of my business but I continued trading under the Business Name. All legitimate and above board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Traveller Posted April 11, 2020 Author #18 Share Posted April 11, 2020 26 minutes ago, Pushka said: ASIC requires employees Titles to match with the legalities of the organisation. We have several business names trading under the one PTY LTD umbrella but we can’t call ourselves CE or Chairman of ABC Business Name. You are familiar with the difference between a Business Name and a Corporation. Advice from an expert on Australian Corporations Law (not me!!) is that the word "Director" can only be used when referring to a Director of a corporation, however, there is no restriction on the word "Chairman". Unless it is a company, they cannot use the title "Chairman of Directors". People who chair meetings of any kind, even a small club, can be called "Chairman". 🙂 Anyone can call themselves a Chief Executive Officer. This usually implies an employee as Ann Sherry was. I can't see that the title Ann Sherry used until a year ago has any impact on the current situation. 🙂 I also can't see that Carnival Corporation has been trying to hide their corporate structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazzaw Posted April 11, 2020 #19 Share Posted April 11, 2020 4 hours ago, christodan said: Have you seen this today? https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-ill-fated-journey-of-cruise-ship-the-ruby-princess-20200410-p54iu5.html#comments Interesting that one passenger who booked direct received a text message from Princess with an email about a refund for a change of mind, but another passenger who booked through an agent seemed to not receive the offer and said was told everything is fine. This is where some communication may have broken down as well. Makes me think it is better to always book directly. If there is one thing that I have learned about all this, is that I will never book through a TA again, not even a hotel through a hotel aggregator or any flights!!!. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiamondFour Posted April 11, 2020 #20 Share Posted April 11, 2020 2 hours ago, bazzaw said: If there is one thing that I have learned about all this, is that I will never book through a TA again, not even a hotel through a hotel aggregator or any flights!!!. This crisis will put travel agents out of business, but I learned that many years ago to never book through a travel agent when Ansett collapsed and the travel agent went out of business not long after. I think it was called Traveland and there is not more of them since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy1948 Posted April 11, 2020 #21 Share Posted April 11, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Aus Traveller said: Does it matter that 'Carnival Australia' doesn't exist as a legal entity? Princess Cruises is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation. As shareholders of Carnival Corp we receive benefits when we cruise on the cruise-lines it owns, Princess being one of them. With all the disclaimers and protections written into the cruise contract, it would not be an easy task to win in a legal case against Carnival Corp. Carnival Australia does exist inasmuch as it's ABN NO is registered to Carnival Australia but it's trading name is P & O Cruises. ABN 23 107 998 443 same ABN below are the business names This is an extract from the ABR - sorry about the black lettering, I don't know how to make it go away. Here's the link https://abr.business.gov.au/ABN/View?abn=23107998443 Business name From HOLLAND AMERICA LINE 27 Jun 2011 CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES 22 Mar 2011 P & O CRUISES AUSTRALIA 27 Nov 2008 COMPLETE CRUISE SOLUTION 24 Jan 2006 CARNIVAL AUSTRALIA 09 Feb 2005 COSTA CRUISES 16 Feb 2004 CUNARD 16 Feb 2004 P & O CRUISES 16 Feb 2004 PRINCESS CRUISES 16 Feb 2004 SEABOURN CRUISE LINE 16 Feb 2004 WCL 16 Feb 2004 WORLD'S LEADING CRUISE LINES 16 Feb 2004 Trading name From P&O Cruises Australia 16 Feb 2004 Edited April 11, 2020 by dizzy1948 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Traveller Posted April 11, 2020 Author #22 Share Posted April 11, 2020 18 minutes ago, dizzy1948 said: Carnival Australia does exist inasmuch as it's ABN NO is registered to Carnival Australia but it's trading name is P & O Cruises. ABN 23 107 998 443 below are the business names This is an extract from the ABR - sorry about the black lettering, I don't know how to make it go away. Here's the link https://abr.business.gov.au/ABN/View?abn=23107998443 The corporate structure of Carnival came under discussion in the context of suing the company. Carnival Australia is a Business Name. Under Australian law, a Business Name is not a 'legal entity', in that it cannot be sued directly. It is the owners of the Business Name who are sued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VK3DQ Posted April 11, 2020 #23 Share Posted April 11, 2020 18 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said: The corporate structure of Carnival came under discussion in the context of suing the company. Carnival Australia is a Business Name. Under Australian law, a Business Name is not a 'legal entity', in that it cannot be sued directly. It is the owners of the Business Name who are sued. Hi But who owns the ship and who manages the ship ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy1948 Posted April 11, 2020 #24 Share Posted April 11, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said: The corporate structure of Carnival came under discussion in the context of suing the company. Carnival Australia is a Business Name. Under Australian law, a Business Name is not a 'legal entity', in that it cannot be sued directly. It is the owners of the Business Name who are sued. There you go - learn something new everyday. As far as I knew companies with ABN/ACN are legal entities in Aus and are "responsible" for all aspects of their business here. Oh wow, it's all messy.🥴and P & O Aus are the main entity - trading as...…. Edited April 11, 2020 by dizzy1948 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VK3DQ Posted April 11, 2020 #25 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Each ship will be a law to itself and Flag State law will be paramount in any litigation so be prepared for a trip to a remote courthouse in that Flag state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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