Ruby Princess - Special Inquiry - Evidence To Date

[Cyrix400]

6 hours ago, SY7DNEY CRUISER said:

Inquiry has stated it was a serious group mistake. Inquiry has only interviewed The middle grade public servants.

They have not  interviewed theThe Minister for health, the secretary of department and the chief health officer who are responsible for the decisions that were made. They must be held accountable. 

 

 

Much more than interviewing only 'the middle grade public servants': The Health NSW expert medical panel consisted of 4 very experienced public health medical people, including 1  professor and 1 associate professor (exhibits 53 & 56).  In addition the Commission requested two outside professors/ experts from the University of NSW to independently review and comment on the decisions by Health NSW - the Commissioner asked them a number of specific and detailed questions ( a lot of them of technical nature  - exhibit 99).  Another professor was asked to do a 'desktop' review - exhibit 98.

The Issues for Consideration by all Parties -( interesting Exhibit 116) contained additionally 40 questions - 24 of which were for Health NSW and 9 for Carnival - with the final opportunity given to the parties to respond.

 

It seems that the Commissioner was very thorough in wanting to get to the bottom of HOW and WHY certain decisions had been made and by WHOM  - and were these the right decisions in the circumstances. He sought to question the decision makers at all levels - but not those nominally and ultimately responsible ( like the minister and the departmental secretary).

 

[Cyrix400]

Only for those with great interest (and some time) to scan the  public submissions to the Inquiry - the Commission have updated its website   https://www.rubyprincessinquiry.nsw.gov.au/submissions/

Submissions received

• Table 1 - Passengers of the Ruby Princess on the 8 to 19 March 2020 voyage
• Table 2 - Passengers of the Ruby Princess on the 24 February to 8 March 2020 voyage
• Table 3 - Passengers of other cruises
• Table 4 - Public submissions

Includes  some unrealistic suggestions from the passengers (to be expected) - but also some personal experiences from other cruises (Table 3).

In addition some 426 statements from pax,  originally made to the police investigation , were previously received but not made publicly available by the Inquiry.

Let's see how long it will take for the govt to consider all the Inquiry recommendations, before releasing the report with the government response.

[By The Bay]

4 minutes ago, Cyrix400 said:

Let's see how long it will take for the govt to consider all the Inquiry recommendations, before releasing the report with the government response.

An interesting question. I eagerly await the response.

[christodan]

Reading some of the passenger submissions -some complaints are ridiculous. One complaining that they didn't get to meet the captain and there were lots of 'rust spots' and 'general shabbiness' on the ship!   ***** ! 

[Blackduck59]

46 minutes ago, christodan said:

Reading some of the passenger submissions -some complaints are ridiculous. One complaining that they didn't get to meet the captain and there were lots of 'rust spots' and 'general shabbiness' on the ship!   ***** ! 

 

Sounds like a CC review

[The_Big_M]

1 hour ago, christodan said:

Reading some of the passenger submissions -some complaints are ridiculous. One complaining that they didn't get to meet the captain 

 

So really a commendation that they were applying social distancing.

[christodan]

1 hour ago, Blackduck59 said:

Sounds like a CC review

LOL !

[NSWP]

I have kept out of this topic for personal reasons, but I give you this scenario...What if the Senior Doctor and Captain of the Ruby Princess at Circular Quay on 19th March 2020, had the intestinal fortitude to defy and challenge NSW Health/Border Force and hold all pax and crew on board until testing was done and results known?  The ship's executive officers knew they had Covid cases aboard, yet the pax and crew were released into main stream Sydney.

 

I note the number of submissions, 100 or so, what happened to the other 2500 pax?  could they not be bothered to make a submission? 

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by NSWP

[christodan]

33 minutes ago, NSWP said:

What if the Senior Doctor and Captain of the Ruby Princess at Circular Quay on 19th March 2020, had the intestinal fortitude to defy and challenge NSW Health/Border Force and hold all pax and crew on board until testing was done and results known? 

I don't know.  They could be sued for 'false imprisonment' or 'prevention of liberty' or whatever it's called. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by christodan

[Cyrix400]

24 minutes ago, NSWP said:

I have kept out of this topic for personal reasons, but I give you this scenario...What if the Senior Doctor and Captain of the Ruby Princess at Circular Quay on 19th March 2020, had the intestinal fortitude to defy and challenge NSW Health/Border Force and hold all pax and crew on board until testing was done and results known?  The ship's executive officers knew they had Covid cases aboard, yet the pax and crew were released into main stream Sydney.

 

I note the number of submissions, 100 or so, what happened to the other 2500 pax?  could they not be bothered to make a submission? 

 

 

Once the ship obtained from the govt authorities  the permission to disembark in Sydney (the formal pratique),   neither the ship Capt or the ship doctor could, hypothetically,  do anything about it - the horse had bolted by then.

 

Re the 100 or so pax submissions to the Inquiry - add to this some 426 pax statements given originally to the police investigation, and then presented to the Inquiry (not publicly released) - so, quite a high number in total - even if some would be from the same people.

[mr walker]

25 minutes ago, NSWP said:

I have kept out of this topic for personal reasons, but I give you this scenario...What if the Senior Doctor and Captain of the Ruby Princess at Circular Quay on 19th March 2020, had the intestinal fortitude to defy and challenge NSW Health/Border Force and hold all pax and crew on board until testing was done and results known?  The ship's executive officers knew they had Covid cases aboard, yet the pax and crew were released into main stream Sydney.

 

1. There was a line of questioning along these lines in the enquiry. When Carnival were asked (I guess it was Mr Mifsud) his reply was along the lines of what legal basis would they have had to hold the passengers on-board when the authorities had cleared the ship.

2. as there was no capability to test for Covid on-board, no-one had any evidence that there was Covid on-board. This was a clear stance of Carnival in the enquiry. Remember that the swabs tested in Wellington came back negative for Covid.

[Vader1111]

1 hour ago, NSWP said:

I have kept out of this topic for personal reasons, but I give you this scenario...What if the Senior Doctor and Captain of the Ruby Princess at Circular Quay on 19th March 2020, had the intestinal fortitude to defy and challenge NSW Health/Border Force and hold all pax and crew on board until testing was done and results known?  The ship's executive officers knew they had Covid cases aboard, yet the pax and crew were released into main stream Sydney.

 

I note the number of submissions, 100 or so, what happened to the other 2500 pax?  could they not be bothered to make a submission? 

 

Firstly, as previously noted, they could be sued for false imprisonment.  Carnival had/has no right to force passengers to remain onboard, after the ship has been cleared by the local authorities.

 

Secondly, the delay probably would have resulted in even more passengers being infected, with all that that entails.

 

Thirdly, the ship's officers didn't "<know> that they had Covid cases aboard".  They certainly suspected, but they couldn't possibly have known for certain.  The tests done in Wellington all came back negative, and they had no ability to do any further testing after that.

[Aus Traveller]

2 hours ago, NSWP said:

I have kept out of this topic for personal reasons, but I give you this scenario...What if the Senior Doctor and Captain of the Ruby Princess at Circular Quay on 19th March 2020, had the intestinal fortitude to defy and challenge NSW Health/Border Force and hold all pax and crew on board until testing was done and results known?  The ship's executive officers knew they had Covid cases aboard, yet the pax and crew were released into main stream Sydney.

 

I note the number of submissions, 100 or so, what happened to the other 2500 pax?  could they not be bothered to make a submission? 

 

I cannot agree with your statement that "the ship's executive officers knew they had Covid cases aboard". They knew they had passengers with respiratory symptoms (happens on virtually every cruise) and that some passengers who had been tested for influenza, tested negative. COVID tests done in Wellington all came back negative. This probably gave a false sense of security on the issue. I cannot work out why you made the statement you did 🙂.

 

I also believe that if the passengers had been kept on board, there would have been hundreds more infections unless the passengers were confined to their cabins. In the world as it was on 19th March, that would have been a brave call by the Captain. In the world of today, it would be accepted by most, but, even now we see some idiots refusing to follow lawful directions to isolate, stay in quarantine, or wear masks.

[BRANDEE]

13 hours ago, NSWP said:

I have kept out of this topic for personal reasons, but I give you this scenario...What if the Senior Doctor and Captain of the Ruby Princess at Circular Quay on 19th March 2020, had the intestinal fortitude to defy and challenge NSW Health/Border Force and hold all pax and crew on board until testing was done and results known?  The ship's executive officers knew they had Covid cases aboard, yet the pax and crew were released into main stream Sydney.

 

I note the number of submissions, 100 or so, what happened to the other 2500 pax?  could they not be bothered to make a submission? 

 

I gave a submission to the police months ago in the form of a questionnaire and it is not quoted in the report.  Also, I have been contacted through e mail this Monday from the NSWPolice .They want to speak to me regarding my experience on board the Ruby.  It says they are conducting an investigation into the deaths of passengers on the ship due to Covid. 

 

Nope..have had enough of their ****.  They didn't care to follow up months ago to see if I was dead or alive..I'm was only an international passenger. They are still trying to point fingers at Princess. Obviously, the Commissioners Inquiry Report means nothing to the police..they want their own show.  

 

 

 

[christodan]

3 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

I gave a submission to the police months ago in the form of a questionnaire and it is not quoted in the report.  Also, I have been contacted through e mail this Monday from the NSWPolice .They want to speak to me regarding my experience on board the Ruby.  It says they are conducting an investigation into the deaths of passengers on the ship due to Covid. 

 

Brandee, maybe just do it to tell them what you think of them and Fuller? 

[Cyrix400]

Two very short and interesting supplementary submissions dated 31 July, from Health NSW and Princess  on the Inquiry website.

The Commissioner wanted to find out if Health NSW considered its responsibility to advise cruise lines to  keep up to date with the frequently changing definitions of the covid suspect cases – which are communicated to the Public Health Units by the Communicable Disease Network Australia (CDNA).

 Health NSW considered that it “has no obligation to inform vessel owners and operatives of the need to ‘keep abreast’ of changes in a document published by a Commonwealth agency and directed to the work of Public Health Units.The National Protocol did not require it and nor should the Commission impose this obligation on NSW Health, retrospectively”

“To suggest that in respect of every ‘vessel’ entering NSW Ports, NSW Health had an obligation to update them on changes to Guidelines is both unrealistic, impractical and absolves the ‘vessels’ of responsibility to keep apprised of matters relevant to its industry”

And not surprisingly the Princess view is that:

“There is no evidence that at any time up to 19 March 2020, any representative of any Australian Government agency (including the CDNA) was urging the community to monitor changes to the CDNA’s recommended testing criteria for the purpose of making judgements about how to reduce the risk of contracting COVID-19. This is still the case

If, contrary to these submissions, the Commissioner is minded to find that the CDNA Guidelines should have been brought to the attention of the officers of the Ruby Princess, then it is submitted that the obligation was on an Australian Government agency to urge the operator to monitor them. Whether that agency was the Department of Agriculture (being the agency with prime responsibility for determining pratique) or NSW Health, is not a matter on which the Princess Parties can presently comment”

So, in the rapidly changing setting of the covid world, and with the additional knowledge becoming available almost daily, NO ONE considers it their responsibility to keep the cruise lines operating in Australia up to date with the changing definition of covid suspect cases!  Illuminating stuff.

[Docker123]

Those submission extracts , particularly the first, could have been written by Sir Humphrey Appleby. 
 

[mr walker]

7 minutes ago, Docker123 said:

Those submission extracts , particularly the first, could have been written by Sir Humphrey Appleby. 
 

yes minister 🙂

 

On my viewing of the evidence presented by the various NSW Health officers during the hearings, the prime training resources used by the administration of that 'organization' were the boxed sets of the Yes Minister series.

[The_Big_M]

This is one thing I agree with the Department of Health on.

 

If no government agency above them, including the CDNA, is recommending parties keep up to date - including to now - I don't see that that department would be responsible to require a cruise line to keep up to date.

 

Basically, this issue is broader than just the cruise line or state level; it's a federal issue. That would mean different state departments have different guidelines for the ships as they visit each port which makes no sense for a national issue.

[By The Bay]

22 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

This is one thing I agree with the Department of Health on.

 

If no government agency above them, including the CDNA, is recommending parties keep up to date - including to now - I don't see that that department would be responsible to require a cruise line to keep up to date.

 

Basically, this issue is broader than just the cruise line or state level; it's a federal issue. That would mean different state departments have different guidelines for the ships as they visit each port which makes no sense for a national issue.

Peter Dutton has stated that Border Force does not have that responsibility. This could be one recommendation, who will take responsibility? It makes sense for it to be a Federal agency, not individual States making seperate decisions.

[NSWP]

I just watched the recent 4 Corners doco on the Ruby. I still maintain Carnival will not escape penalty, nor will NSW Health, Australian Border Force. Just one giantic stuff up. There appear to be more cover ups on this incident than there were at Watergate.

Edited August 7, 2020 by NSWP

[Cyrix400]

1 hour ago, By The Bay said:

Peter Dutton has stated that Border Force does not have that responsibility. This could be one recommendation, who will take responsibility? It makes sense for it to be a Federal agency, not individual States making seperate decisions.

 

Some more 'clarification' about ABF responsibility - in a different context. 

 

When about a week ago new media reports surfaced about the role of the Aust Border Force  (ABF) in the disembarkation of the Ruby Princess,  the Commissioner invited the Commonwealth to respond - and they did so, in a short  further supplementary report of 3 August (exhibit 126).

 

In essence - the ABF has NO  responsibility for the human bio-security matters (i.e. pax sick or with symptoms). So the ball is passed back to NSW Health. 

 

The story in the press that ABF misinterpreted negative tests for flu as being negative tests for covid, was of no practical significance, because:

 

"The Commonwealth accepted in the Statement at [173] that the ABF officer the subject of the reporting appears to have misinterpreted the test results emailed to him by Carnival’s port agent. However, this misinterpretation had no bearing on passengers being permitted to disembark or the granting of pratique  ( i.e permission to disembark) as the ABF officer had no biosecurity role to play in those matters and the provision of the information about the test results did not occur until after passengers commenced disembarkation"

[NSWP]

This is all too technical for me, i will graciousley withdraw your worship.

[MMDown Under]

4 hours ago, NSWP said:

This is all too technical for me, i will graciousley withdraw your worship.

I agree.  I just took my first look.  I think you'd need to have followed from inception.  

[christodan]

Thanks for the submissions by passengers and the general public Cyrix, some were hilarious.

A lot of tin foil hat people out there.