Is this our future?

[TrulyBlonde]

10 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

What wonderful news - I feel so much better and safer now (sarcasm emoji).

Paul,

I think @Aloha1 said it best. Might be time to shut down this thread. Common Sense.

[Paulchili]

3 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Paul,

I think @Aloha1 said it best. Might be time to shut down this thread. Common Sense.

I only wish more people had "common sense" - we might not be here discussing it at all at this point.

 

[Paulchili]

4 hours ago, Aloha 1 said:

Common Sense, says gathering in large groups, marching shoulder to shoulder while also screaming out slogans creates an environment conducive to spreading the virus. The mantra is not just masks but social distancing also.

 

Remember, while screaming out slogans will increase the virus load in the air, wearing a mask does what it should - significantly decreases the amount of virus being emitted. If you gather in large numbers without a mask you don't have to scream to endanger others.

 

4 hours ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Common Sense, says the more you test the higher the likelihood you will find more virus positives.

This is somebody else's favorite line. It would seem like common sense but irrelevant to the incidence of the virus.

If you test 10K people and get a 1% positive results and then test 20K people with same percentage of positives you get more positive tests but no increase in COVID prevalence.

However, if that same 20K people now have 10% positives, you have larger number of positive tests but also a LOT more sick people (like ten times more). That is the number that counts - not how many positive tests you have.

Numbers can be tricky and we have to be careful how we interpret them..

Edited June 30, 2020 by Paulchili

[Aloha 1]

18 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

I only wish more people had "common sense" - we might not be here discussing it at all at this point.

 

Paul, I agree and wish more would practice common sense, hence my comment. For myself, I practice what I preach. I wear a mask when in a store but not outside where no one else is nearby. I maintain social distancing when out even if others don't. I carry a hand sanitizer and wipes in  my car because not every store provides the proper prophylactics. But even with all that, I do not let this virus prevent me from living. 

[Paulchili]

3 minutes ago, Aloha 1 said:

Paul, I agree and wish more would practice common sense, hence my comment. For myself, I practice what I preach. I wear a mask when in a store but not outside where no one else is nearby. I maintain social distancing when out even if others don't. I carry a hand sanitizer and wipes in  my car because not every store provides the proper prophylactics. But even with all that, I do not let this virus prevent me from living. 

Good for you and kudos to you.

We are being very careful as well and always wear masks when outside.

[Aloha 1]

Paul; I  have read every one of your comments and I must ask you a simple question. You have many times alluded to a failure of government response regarding this virus. So I ask you this simple question;  If you had the power, what would you have done differently if  you learned of the outbreak in January? 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Aloha 1

[chipmaster]

On 6/17/2020 at 10:41 AM, KirkNC said:

Ponant, a French luxury expedition cruise line, is restarting in July.  Here is an outline of changes to their cruise experience.  
 

Pre-Boarding
• Prior to boarding, all guests and crew members will have to present a signed doctor’s medical form, complete a health questionnaire and undergo a health check and screening by the ship’s medical staff.
• All luggage will pass through a disinfecting zone by sanitizing mist or UV lamps.
• Surgical and cloth masks, disinfecting wipes and hand sanitizer bottles will be provided to passengers.

Onboard Experience
• 100 percent fresh air in staterooms, through non-recirculating air conditioning systems. Ventilated air will be renewed in the common areas at least five times per hour. 
• Restaurant layouts have been redesigned and will only offer contactless a la carte dining options.
• Public spaces, such as the fitness room and theater will be capped at 50 percent occupancy.
• Hourly disinfecting of high-touch points, such as door handles and handrails, with peroxide, which eliminates 100% of germs and bacteria
• Crew members are required to wear a mask or protective visor when in contact with guests. Guests will be asked to wear a mask in hallway corridors and will be recommended in public spaces. 
• Thanks to large investments over several years, Ponant said it has some of the most complete and renowned onboard medical centers in the world of cruising. Each vessel is equipped with advanced hospital equipment, including mobile laboratory terminals that enable testing on site for infectious or tropical diseases. Advanced diagnostic equipment such as ultrasound, radiology and blood biological analysis is available fleet-wide, one doctor and one nurse are present on every sailing.
• All ships will have five vacant staterooms should guests need to isolate. 

Shore Excursions
• Zodiacs will be thoroughly disinfected after each stopover.
• Re-boarding after shore excursions will only be permitted after temperature check and disinfection procedures (individuals and personal belongings).

 

This sounds like the same thing you'd get if you had a netjet, or maybe a private sports box in a stadium.

 

Sadly for the rest of the mass market humans, this won't work.  

 

We'll have an terrible up and down and lot more deaths among the elder, obese, week, and some of the most underprivledged people we burden with near minimum pay, but guess we'll have been very darwian pruned society in 4-5 years, but what a world it will be, scary indeed. 

[TrulyBlonde]

17 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

Remember, while screaming out slogans will increase the virus load in the air, wearing a mask does what it should - significantly decreases the amount of virus being emitted. If you gather in large numbers without a mask you don't have to scream to endanger others.

 

This is somebody else's favorite line. It would seem like common sense but irrelevant to the incidence of the virus.

If you test 10K people and get a 1% positive results and then test 20K people with same percentage of positives you get more positive tests but no increase in COVID prevalence.

However, if that same 20K people now have 10% positives, you have larger number of positive tests but also a LOT more sick people (like ten times more). That is the number that counts - not how many positive tests you have.

Numbers can be tricky and we have to be careful how we interpret them..

Paul, where did I say this.....you are quoting me with something I did not even say. Take a Xanax.

[Paulchili]

43 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Paul, where did I say this.....you are quoting me with something I did not even say. Take a Xanax.

TB - my apologies - I did not mean to quote you. I meat to multi-quote Aloha1 as this post is all about "common sense" (a term used by Aloha1).

And thank you, but I do not need medical advice from anyone on CC 🙂

[Paulchili]

1 hour ago, Aloha 1 said:

Paul; I  have read every one of your comments and I must ask you a simple question. You have many times alluded to a failure of government response regarding this virus. So I ask you this simple question;  If you had the power, what would you have done differently if  you learned of the outbreak in January? 

I would have followed the examples of countries that fought this virus successfully  - even then (Taiwan, Singapore, S. Korea and even Wuhan with their TOTAL lock down.).

Even in Feb we had time to act more decisively. Later we should have learned from Italy, Spain and France who were a total disaster and look at them now.

This pandemic is like nothing we have ever seen before. It requires very strict, enforceable rules from the top that are uniform for the entire country and not left to the discretion of local officials. The decisions are to be made by the scientist and not politicians. Look at how strict, aggressive and active was Gov. Cuomo in NY in tackling the problem and now you see the results.

In a case like this it's not about article one - it's about everybody pulling together - being forced along if needed - for the benefit of us all.

That is what they did in every single country that fought this off - we were essentially the last ones affected with lots of time and experience of others - all we had to do is execute.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Paulchili

[clo]

3 hours ago, deadzone1003 said:

If you are young and have underlying medical conditions, going to one of those protests or rallies is just getting you to the front of the line for a Darwin award. 

Er, you didn't mention bars, parks, beaches, etc. At least a lot of protesters are now wearing masks.

[clo]

14 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

And thank you, but I do not need medical advice from anyone on CC 🙂

Not gonna stop 'em but yeah.

[deadzone1003]

1 hour ago, Paulchili said:

Remember, while screaming out slogans will increase the virus load in the air, wearing a mask does what it should - significantly decreases the amount of virus being emitted. If you gather in large numbers without a mask you don't have to scream to endanger others.

 

This is somebody else's favorite line. It would seem like common sense but irrelevant to the incidence of the virus.

If you test 10K people and get a 1% positive results and then test 20K people with same percentage of positives you get more positive tests but no increase in COVID prevalence.

However, if that same 20K people now have 10% positives, you have larger number of positive tests but also a LOT more sick people (like ten times more). That is the number that counts - not how many positive tests you have.

Numbers can be tricky and we have to be careful how we interpret them..

Under your logic, we should lockdown under a bad flu season.  You have to realize the young know they will not die if they catch this virus.  A choice of getting sick for a couple of week or living in a cave is the option they think they have.  What do you think they will do?  We may think it is dangerous (but that's our opinion) but if they are willing to accept the consequences of their actions provided protections are alloted to those most-at-risk is the best we can hope for.  Just because we are part of the most-at-risk portion of the population doesn't required them to live the same way as we have to.  They need to adhere to minimal protections such as social distancing and mask protections in interior spaces.  (I would like to add talking on mobile phones while walking should be verboten.)

[clo]

7 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

That is what they did in every single country that fought this off - we were essentially the last ones affected with lots of time and experience of others - all we had to do is execute.

And Europe had bad economic breakdowns but got it under control. We're suffering from both. And unwillingness for the guy at the top to make decisions.

[Paulchili]

3 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

Under your logic, we should lockdown under a bad flu season.  You have to realize the young know they will not die if they catch this virus.  A choice of getting sick for a couple of week or living in a cave is the option they think they have.  What do you think they will do?  We may think it is dangerous (but that's our opinion) but if they are willing to accept the consequences of their actions provided protections are alloted to those most-at-risk is the best we can hope for.

If all the risk they take would be singularly theirs then you are correct.

The problem is that they may not get sick but will most likely infect many other people that didn't agree to take the same risks.

I call it selfishness. And where did it get them - a few weeks in the bars, spikes in cases and closed bars again.

[clo]

4 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

You have to realize the young know they will not die if they catch this virus. 

Don't they also know that they can infect others and remain asymptomatic themselves. I ready a piece today about it's mutating and is going to cause stronger 'infestations' which is going to make it easier to spread.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2020/06/29/coronavirus-mutation-science/?arc404=true

[clo]

1 minute ago, Paulchili said:

I call it selfishness

And arrogance.

[Petoonya]

1 hour ago, Paulchili said:

This is somebody else's favorite line. It would seem like common sense but irrelevant to the incidence of the virus.

If you test 10K people and get a 1% positive results and then test 20K people with same percentage of positives you get more positive tests but no increase in COVID prevalence.

However, if that same 20K people now have 10% positives, you have larger number of positive tests but also a LOT more sick people (like ten times more). That is the number that counts - not how many positive tests you have.

Numbers can be tricky and we have to be careful how we interpret them..

1000+

[deadzone1003]

12 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

I would have followed the examples of countries that fought this virus successfully  - even then (Taiwan, Singapore, S. Korea and even Wuhan with their TOTAL lock down.).

Even in Feb we had time to act more decisively. Later we should have learned from Italy, Spain and France who were a total disaster and look at them now.

This pandemic is like nothing we have ever seen before. It requires very strict, enforceable rules from the top that are uniform for the entire country and not left to the discretion of local officials. The decision are to be made by the scientist and not politicians. Look at how strict, aggressive and active was Gov. Cuomo in NY in tackling the problem and now you see the results.

In a case like this it's not about article one - it's about everybody pulling together - being forced along if needed - for the benefit of us all.

That is what they did in every single country that fought this off - we were essentially the last ones affected with lots of time and experience of others - all we had to do is execute.

USA is alot like the EU in that we are more like 50 countries than 50 similiar states.  Rural states were never really affected.  Even within one's own state, the rural area is totally different from the urban areas.  To have 1 policy nationwide is ludicrous unless you like to wear 1 size fits all clothes.  As for Cuomo, he knew the elderly and people with underlying medical conditions were most at risk, yet by decree, he forced recovering covid19 patients back into Nursing Homes from where they came even though they did not know if they were still infectious or not.  Many died later who caught the virus from these returning patients.  After awhile, nursing home patients who died in the hospitals were not counted as nursing home deaths.  So, New York doesn't know how many people died who were living in Nursing Homes.  How successful was Cuomo?  The death rate per million for New York is 1,619 now.  Florida is currently at 160 though it has a portionally larger elderly population.  Texas is currently at 80.  So if you are a resident of New York you are 10 times more likely to die of the virus than a resident of Florida.  That's how good a job Cuomo was doing protecting the people of New York.   

[TrulyBlonde]

1 hour ago, Paulchili said:

TB - my apologies - I did not mean to quote you. I meat to multi-quote Aloha1 as this post is all about "common sense" (a term used by Aloha1).

And thank you, but I do not need medical advice from anyone on CC 🙂

Apology accepted.  xo

[1985rz1]

2 hours ago, Aloha 1 said:

So I ask you this simple question;  If you had the power, what would you have done differently if  you learned of the outbreak in January? 

JMHO, but I think you are asking the wrong question.  Hindsight is 2020, and we can't do anything about that.

 

To me the real question is what have we learned that will inform us when the next pandemic appears and how we will respond as this one continues.  But I am not very confident that we will have learned anything.

 

If you read the history of the 1918-19 pandemic (misnomered as the Spanish influenza, when the most likely origin was Kansas), the mistakes made by the governments, especially ours, parallel the mistakes made this time.  While the immediacy of WWI at that time influenced our responses then, they are almost identical  with how our government reacted and responded with denials and the repression of information today.  I urge all to to read up on that and find those parallels for yourselves.  Do you think in 50 or 100 years, will anyone remember our disastrous mistakes?

 

Just saying...

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by 1985rz1

[TrulyBlonde]

Can the moderator Please close this thread. It has become rabid at this point and far to political. Please!

[CintiPam]

18 minutes ago, 1985rz1 said:

JMHO, but I think you are asking the wrong question.  Hindsight is 2020, and we can't do anything about that.

 

To me the real question is what have we learned that will inform us when the next pandemic appears and how we will respond as this one continues.  But I am not very confident that we will have learned anything.

 

If you read the history of the 1918-19 pandemic (misnomered as the Spanish influenza, when the most likely origin was Kansas), the mistakes made by the governments, especially ours, parallel the mistakes made this time.  While the immediacy of WWI at that time influenced our responses then, they are almost identical  with how our government reacted and responded with denials and the repression of information today.  I urge all to to read up on that and find those parallels for yourselves.  Do you think in 50 or 100 years, will anyone remember our disastrous mistakes?

 

Just saying...

 

You must have been eavesdropping at our dinner table this evening! Spouse just was telling me the exact same information about our government’s response to that pandemic and how much we should have learned/can learn from this event just over 100 years ago. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by CintiPam

[1985rz1]

40 minutes ago, CintiPam said:

You must have been eavesdropping at our dinner table this evening! Spouse just was telling me the exact same information about our government’s response to that pandemic and how much we should have learned/can learn from this event just over 100 years ago. 

You need to read "The Great Influenza" by John M. Barry.  It's a bit of a slog and often tedious, but worth the pain.

[clo]

1 hour ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Can the moderator Please close this thread. It has become rabid at this point and far to political. Please!

Perhaps use the report feature.