Ignoring CDC Cruise regulations

[livingonthebeach]

3 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

Does anyone know what 9 ships the cdc is referring to with statement there are some ships still dealing with covid and recovery?

 

 

They don't state which 9 ships specifically in the no-sail extension -- here is the statement:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships-Second-Extension_07_16_2020-p.pdf

 

[HicksRA]

20 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

They don't state which 9 ships specifically in the no-sail extension -- here is the statement:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships-Second-Extension_07_16_2020-p.pdf

 

I wonder what a COVID-like illness is? Common cold?

Edited July 19, 2020 by HicksRA

[Joebucks]

1 hour ago, mek said:

This is specifically addressing antibodies, not a positive C19 tests.  Two different things.

 

They are two different things. Which were also combined. For some reason or another, that story wasn't blasted in everyone's face

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cdc-acknowledges-mixing-up-coronavirus-testing-data/ar-BB14qGHG?ocid=sf&fbclid=IwAR0_zXaALmfmQLWx8GXqzmxEZ9Kbnt58bnXMdqzZR-RvLFL0xO6DOOH7WNE

[Wannacruise81]

51 minutes ago, TravelerThom said:

Your first question involved several paragraphs disparaging the CDC and then asking would we ignore CDC guidance. 
Your second question is NOT an honest representation of what you had previous discussed, so don’t lecture us on what what your “Question was”.

🍿

[livingonthebeach]

28 minutes ago, HicksRA said:

I wonder what a COVID-like illness is? Common cold?

 

There were 34 deaths with both combined so whatever it is I don't think it's as innocuous as the common cold. 🤔

[Etta1213]

What did the Bahamas Paradise line do to satisfy the CDC, that the other large ships/lines find maybe too difficult to satisfy? I'm curious to know how they did satisfy the CDC. Maybe all their crew from US or from the Bahamas? Did the Bahamas maybe agree to accept any pos/sick crew or cruisers into their country if problems arise?

[Sunshine3601]

4 hours ago, HicksRA said:

This from CDC.gov. Makes you wonder what the actual ratio of COVID-19 cases are compared to positive test results. Are we being duped? 
 

You realize your section above is discussing the antibody test not the covid19 test??   2 separate tests and the antibody test has not yet been found to be accurate.  I had antibody test in june and lab Corp tech told me accuracy of 50%  others are saying less.  Plus no real proof that anyone is immune to the virus after contracting it.

[livingonthebeach]

10 minutes ago, Etta1213 said:

What did the Bahamas Paradise line do to satisfy the CDC, that the other large ships/lines find maybe too difficult to satisfy? I'm curious to know how they did satisfy the CDC. Maybe all their crew from US or from the Bahamas? Did the Bahamas maybe agree to accept any pos/sick crew or cruisers into their country if problems arise?

 

Bahamas Paradise submitted a NSO plan that met all the requirements in the April order for one of its ships.  The April order is very in-depth and detailed -- here's the link to the entire order:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships_Extension_4-9-20-encrypted.pdf

[B-52]

CDC is one thing....then you have the state governments deciding if they want the ports in their state open or not.

Here in the NJ/NY area, you have the Port Authority which regulates, controls, all shipping in/out of the area.

Even IF RCI followed all CDC guidelines, (which IMO they won't) the local authorities would take that under advisement.

 

Our Governor wants everyone who has traveled out of state to quarantine upon returning.  Imagine cruise ships coming in from visiting other islands?

Just my opinion.....the cruise industry is Dead until further notice. There is so much more to deal with before that happens again.

[Etta1213]

3 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Bahamas Paradise submitted a NSO plan that met all the requirements in the April order for one of its ships.  The April order is very in-depth and detailed -- here's the link to the entire order:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships_Extension_4-9-20-encrypted.pdf

Maybe BP is sharing their approved changes with the bigger lines. Pooling of creative ideas/strategies maybe has been going on behind the scenes. I hope so. We need to be able to get back to cruising !

[livingonthebeach]

3 minutes ago, Etta1213 said:

Maybe BP is sharing their approved changes with the bigger lines. Pooling of creative ideas/strategies maybe has been going on behind the scenes. I hope so. We need to be able to get back to cruising !

 

BP is a small cruise line that operates 2-day cruises from the Port of Palm Beach to the Bahamas -- not at all in the same category as the large cruise lines, don't think the big three will take any suggestions from them but then every exchange of information helps IMHO.  I agree -- we all want to get back to cruising! 

[howiefrommd]

38 minutes ago, Etta1213 said:

What did the Bahamas Paradise line do to satisfy the CDC, that the other large ships/lines find maybe too difficult to satisfy? I'm curious to know how they did satisfy the CDC. Maybe all their crew from US or from the Bahamas? Did the Bahamas maybe agree to accept any pos/sick crew or cruisers into their country if problems arise?

Was just wondering where the information came from that permits any cruise line to cruise pursuant to the April 15 CDC CFR, and subsequent renewals. 

[livingonthebeach]

5 minutes ago, howiefrommd said:

Was just wondering where the information came from that permits any cruise line to cruise pursuant to the April 15 CDC CFR, and subsequent renewals. 

Only the Bahamas Paradise Line in the July extension:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships-Second-Extension_07_16_2020-p.pdf

[Milwaukee Eight]

8 hours ago, Wannacruise81 said:

We all know cruise ships have been a target by the health organizations and kind of a scapegoat for the pandemic

And no, we don’t all know this. 

[mek]

2 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

And no, we don’t all know this. 

Agree.

[howiefrommd]

30 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

Only the Bahamas Paradise Line in the July extension:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships-Second-Extension_07_16_2020-p.pdf

I have read that document numerous times and can not find that.  I am usually quite comfortable as I have been involved in many CFR publications over the years, but finding the approval for some reason I cannot locate.

[livingonthebeach]

2 minutes ago, howiefrommd said:

I have read that document numerous times and can not find that.  I am usually quite comfortable as I have been involved in many CFR publications over the years, but finding the approval for some reason I cannot locate.

 

 

[howiefrommd]

Thanks so much, just found it a back door way.  The requirements set forth are quite cumbersome, especially the medical requirements.  Obviously all eyes will be on this line to see how everything shakes out.  I wonder how they got Critical Care Intensivists  and nurses , in the quantity they will need so fast.  

37 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

Only the Bahamas Paradise Line in the July extension:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships-Second-Extension_07_16_2020-p.pdf

I have read that document numerous times and can not find that.  I am usually quite comfortable as I have been involved in many CFR publications over the years, but finding the approval for some reason I cannot locate.

[livingonthebeach]

4 minutes ago, howiefrommd said:

Thanks so much, just found it a back door way.  The requirements set forth are quite cumbersome, especially the medical requirements.  Obviously all eyes will be on this line to see how everything shakes out.  I wonder how they got Critical Care Intensivists  and nurses , in the quantity they will need so fast.  

 

Bear in mind they only operate 2-day cruises from the Port of Palm Beach to the Bahamas with a capacity of 1,900 for the Grand Celebration, which they will sail at a small percentage of total capacity.  By the time the incubation sets in the cruise is over. 

[Milwaukee Eight]

6 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

Does anyone know what 9 ships the cdc is referring to with statement there are some ships still dealing with covid and recovery?

 

Here is a list of RCL ships. 
 

Numerous challenges have arisen in detecting COVID-19 transmission onboard ships. Although examples can be given from most cruise lines, the experiences of four Royal Caribbean ships, the Vision of the Seas, Liberty of the Seas, Enchantment of the Seas, and Adventure of the Seas, particularly illustrate how an undetected COVID-19 outbreak may occur. These four ships reported no confirmed COVID-19 cases or COVID-like illness in crew for 28 days or longer. However, when crewsubsequently disembarked in countries that required shoreside testing, confirmed cases of COVID-19 were detected in 55 crew members. WhileCDC has recommended periodic random testing of symptomatic andasymptomatic crew, to our knowledge, only 20 of 49 ships currently operating or planning to operate in U.S. waters during the period of the April 15, 2020 Extension have performed testing.

 

While regular testing is not a panacea and a negative test result cannot be used to rule out

results to be useful, and this has proven particularly challenging for ships, even when in port. Difficulties may includelack of point-of-care testing onboard and inadequate staffing to collect, track and transport samples. When rapid testing is more available, regular,repeated testing of those on board, as recommended in other high-density workplace settings, may help to detect COVID-19 outbreaks. Absent wideravailability and implementation oftesting, undetected outbreaks ofCOVID-19 among crew are likely to reoccur.

[Sunshine3601]

1 minute ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Here is a list of RCL ships. 
 

Numerous challenges have arisen in detecting COVID-19 transmission onboard ships. Although examples can be given from most cruise lines, the experiences of four Royal Caribbean ships, the Vision of the Seas, Liberty of the Seas, Enchantment of the Seas, and Adventure of the Seas, particularly illustrate how an undetected COVID-19 outbreak may occur. These four ships reported no confirmed COVID-19 cases or COVID-like illness in crew for 28 days or longer. However, when crewsubsequently disembarked in countries that required shoreside testing, confirmed cases of COVID-19 were detected in 55 crew members. WhileCDC has recommended periodic random testing of symptomatic andasymptomatic crew, to our knowledge, only 20 of 49 ships currently operating or planning to operate in U.S. waters during the period of the April 15, 2020 Extension have performed testing.

 

While regular testing is not a panacea and a negative test result cannot be used to rule out

results to be useful, and this has proven particularly challenging for ships, even when in port. Difficulties may includelack of point-of-care testing onboard and inadequate staffing to collect, track and transport samples. When rapid testing is more available, regular,repeated testing of those on board, as recommended in other high-density workplace settings, may help to detect COVID-19 outbreaks. Absent wideravailability and implementation oftesting, undetected outbreaks ofCOVID-19 among crew are likely to reoccur.

Thank you!  I kept looking but missed that with my speed reading.  

 

[howiefrommd]

21 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Bear in mind they only operate 2-day cruises from the Port of Palm Beach to the Bahamas with a capacity of 1,900 for the Grand Celebration, which they will sail at a small percentage of total capacity.  By the time the incubation sets in the cruise is over. 

The devil is in the details.  Many times what happens is an entity who is in non-compliance with Federal Regulations hire outside consulting firms to develop plans to ensure (on paper) compliance.  Many times these entities do not even realize the scope and impact of the documents they enter into.  I was involved as a Federal Employee and upon retirement entering the consulting world,  in many of these types of negotiations.  

 

Even though they only operate a two day cruise,  the would have to meet all of the requirements set forth in the original CFR and subsequent publications.  The requirements are massive and will take a herculean effort to obtain and maintain compliance.  

[boatseller]

8 hours ago, Wannacruise81 said:

I know this is a long shot but my question is: if the CDC doesn't show any effort in helping the cruise lines and basically the US government just says cruise at your own risk, would you ignore the CDC regulations and cruise?  

 

I personally would cruise with all precautions that the cruise lines has mandated.

Let's clear this up.  The cruise lines did not 'ignore' the CDC, they just chose a course of action that did not require compliance.  Like tax avoidance instead of tax evasion.

 

Yes, philosophically, I will happy comply with the guidance and rules of the property owner or proprietor.  I do not wear a face covering because CDC, I do so because I respect the request of the property owner.

 

So, hypothetically, if the cruise lines and the Commonwealth of the Bahamas came up with a deal to cruise with sensible guidance by embarking at Grand Bahama with an air bridge between FPO-MIA/FLL/MCO (like the Berlin Airlift), I'll be on the third flight out...no need to get up too early.

[Biker19]

3 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

 

The more I read that the more I think the CDC language refers to the BP's plan for crew changes part of the NSO and not the passenger portion - the chart is part of the crew change web page.

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, Biker19 said:

The more I read that the more I think the CDC language refers to the BP's plan for crew changes part of the NSO and not the passenger portion - the chart is part of the crew change web page.

 

Yes it's very confusing. The way I see it it's in two parts -- NSO plan is complete, accurate, signed and good to go for general sailings.  The Green category on the chart is for crew allowed to travel commercially.