Have We Gone On Our Last Cruise?

[Etta1213]

10 hours ago, mikaula said:

Time will tell if I’m able to cruise again. I hope cruises start again in the near future!  However, I’m in the high risk category so it might not work for me but I hope lots of other healthy people will be able to enjoy cruising again. 

I truly hope you are able to continue cruising. Your gracious attitude toward others cruising, even if you cannot, touched my heart. May God bless you.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Etta1213

[panamatiger]

On 8/9/2020 at 7:56 PM, Frank12 said:

On 8/9/2020 at 1:30 PM, jimbo5544 said:

not ready to throw in the towel here either

 

Frank said-> Me neither!  

 

 

Me thr-either.

All of the islands and all of the highlands if we couldn't sail we would all go insane

[Tapi]

9 hours ago, beachbum53 said:

Because it's not possible to have any social distancing sitting elbow to elbow in an airplane. On a ship, even though there may be several thousand people, there are areas where you can go and maintain a moderate distance from fellow cruisers. I'm not saying you can't catch the virus on a cruise ship. Obviously you can, based on what happened back in March and April. But, knowing now what we didn't know just a few months ago, there are certain measures you can take on a ship that you can't take on an airplane, thereby reducing the risk on a ship.

beachbum53:

 

I work in the airline industry. While it's true that it's hard to maintain social distancing on an airplane, you are forgetting the myriad of other procedures and protocols that mitigate the lack of distancing, which when added together, makes flying safer than many other activities that some people may consider safer (including cruising).  Remember that the battle against covid is not limited to just one protocol, but its a combination of many. Social distancing alone isn't enough. There are several procedures currently in place on airplanes that you can't simply replicate on a cruise vacation.  

 

Here are some of the things that we are doing:

• Extended ground time between flights to allow for fogging and deep cleaning before every single flight.
• Cleaning and fogging is conducted using Matrix 3 disinfectant, designed to kill Covid 19. Airplane is first fogged in its entirety, then all seats, tray tables, overhead bins, lavatories, and common touch areas are hand disinfected using Matrix 3 as well.
• All middle seats are blocked to allow additional distance between passengers.
• Masks are required from gate to gate, and during the entire duration of the flight. No masks with valves allowed. Passengers who refuse to adhere to this rule are banned and placed on a "no fly list". Passengers who inform the airline that they can't wear a mask are required to arrive at the airport with enough time (at least an extra hour) to participate in a virtual doctor visit that will assess the passenger's condition and determine if the claim is valid. 
• In flight service is now limited to a sealed bag containing a bottle of water, hand sanitizer, and 2 sealed snacks. These are handed to passengers by flight attendants wearing masks and gloves. First class meals and beverages are limited to sealed snack boxes and a limited selection of beer and wine. 
• New boarding and deplaning procedures with position markers at the gate and jetways, back to front boarding, and requests during deplaning to remain seated until the row ahead of you has moved. 
• Distribution of individual packets of sanitizer to passengers as they board the airplane so that they can sanitize their hands or surfaces around their seat.
• Effective contact tracing and notification for all passengers.
• Airplane air filtration system designed to filtrate the air in the entire cabin every 2-4 minutes, using hospital grade HEPA filters. Air is forced to flow from the top down (vertically rather than horizontally) which minimizes the amount of air and particles that flow from one passenger to another. 
• Company wide availability of molecular and antibody testing for all employees, free of charge. 

 

After several months since these protocols and procedures were introduced, it seems like they are effective and working. So far, mass spreading of covid hasn't been attributed to a single flight since this pandemic started. Even when a passenger has tested positive for covid, contact tracing has shown that no spreading of the disease has occurred. This shows that, even though social distancing isn't quite possible when flying, all the other protocols and procedures combined are proving to be effective. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the cruise industry. Even the few cruises that have recently started  with new protocols in place have already been affected by covid. 

 

Please understand that I'm not trying to encourage you or anybody to fly if they aren't ready. That's a decision that I respect and understand. But for the people who do need to fly somewhere, I think its reassuring that they do so understanding everything that is being done to keep them safe. 

[jimbo5544]

4 minutes ago, Tapi said:

beachbum53:

 

I work in the airline industry. While it's true that it's hard to maintain social distancing on an airplane, you are forgetting the myriad of other procedures and protocols that mitigate the lack of distancing, which when added together, makes flying safer than many other activities that some people may consider safer (including cruising).  Remember that the battle against covid is not limited to just one protocol, but its a combination of many. Social distancing alone isn't enough. There are several procedures currently in place on airplanes that you can't simply replicate on a cruise vacation.  

 

Here are some of the things that we are doing:

• Extended ground time between flights to allow for fogging and deep cleaning before every single flight.
• Cleaning and fogging is conducted using Matrix 3 disinfectant, designed to kill Covid 19. Airplane is first fogged in its entirety, then all seats, tray tables, overhead bins, lavatories, and common touch areas are hand disinfected using Matrix 3 as well.
• All middle seats are blocked to allow additional distance between passengers.
• Masks are required from gate to gate, and during the entire duration of the flight. No masks with valves allowed. Passengers who refuse to adhere to this rule are banned and placed on a "no fly list". Passengers who inform the airline that they can't wear a mask are required to arrive at the airport with enough time (at least an extra hour) to participate in a virtual doctor visit that will assess the passenger's condition and determine if the claim is valid. 
• In flight service is now limited to a sealed bag containing a bottle of water, hand sanitizer, and 2 sealed snacks. These are handed to passengers by flight attendants wearing masks and gloves. First class meals and beverages are limited to sealed snack boxes and a limited selection of beer and wine. 
• New boarding and deplaning procedures with position markers at the gate and jetways, back to front boarding, and requests during deplaning to remain seated until the row ahead of you has moved. 
• Distribution of individual packets of sanitizer to passengers as they board the airplane so that they can sanitize their hands or surfaces around their seat.
• Effective contact tracing and notification for all passengers.
• Airplane air filtration system designed to filtrate the air in the entire cabin every 2-4 minutes, using hospital grade HEPA filters. Air is forced to flow from the top down (vertically rather than horizontally) which minimizes the amount of air and particles that flow from one passenger to another. 
• Company wide availability of molecular and antibody testing for all employees, free of charge. 

 

After several months since these protocols and procedures were introduced, it seems like they are effective and working. So far, mass spreading of covid hasn't been attributed to a single flight since this pandemic started. Even when a passenger has tested positive for covid, contact tracing has shown that no spreading of the disease has occurred. This shows that, even though social distancing isn't quite possible when flying, all the other protocols and procedures combined are proving to be effective. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the cruise industry. Even the few cruises that have recently started  with new protocols in place have already been affected by covid. 

 

Please understand that I'm not trying to encourage you or anybody to fly if they aren't ready. That's a decision that I respect and understand. But for the people who do need to fly somewhere, I think its reassuring that they do so understanding everything that is being done to keep them safe. 

Nice post.  Is it true American and United have dropped the middle seat free feature?

[Gamecock_Cruiser]

Not me! I am not booking again until they are defiantly sailing, or until they send me a offer to good to pass up to not book now!

[dltvermont]

13 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

I'm not sure why anyone would shame someone who doesn't want to get on an airplane any time soon.  I get groceries and mail for two very high risk relatives, so I am more concerned about putting myself at unnecessary risk at this time.  I would love to travel right now, but my common sense tells me not just yet because of my personal situation.  

Everyone is different and that's ok.  My sister travelled to Vegas last month and is going to an all-inclusive this month.  She works from home and doesn't  take care of older relatives, so she has no problem quarantining for 14 days after she gets home.

 

Exactly how it should be all along. Those that are not ready then thats their choice. Those that are ok with it or in a position to do so, then have at it. Personal responsibility to make your own choices and deal with any consequences that may come along.

[Alegeeter]

Yes, you are right about how there is no scientific fact yet. I'm sure there will be, but we just don't have it yet. However, knowing what we know about both industries and about how different viruses behave, I think beachbum53's statement is logical - if at the very least to suggest that both flying and cruising as they were before COVID-19 are very risky. 

 

As an epidemiologist, when I weigh the risks of transmission, there are two very important factors: numbers of virus introductions and proximity/space. Yes, cruises hold a lot more people at any time. However, airplanes carry a lot more people per amount of space, AND also important for virus transmission, introduce more new people per period of time. Airplanes are also not cleaned as thoroughly - though protocols may change because of COVID-10 - whereas cruise ships are cleaned throughout the day. Worse, the number of passengers from all over at an airport (from touching check-in kiosks to security bins, to using the restroom, eating, in seating areas at gates, etc.) at any given time increases the chances of virus introduction. 

 

Norovirus, for example. I know COVID-19 isn't Norovirus, but let's take one virus we know a lot about in this industry just to see how it compares. Cruise ships make headlines when there's an outbreak - they're called petri dishes of the sea. Why is that? A cruise ship is the most convenient setting to study an outbreak because you have a large cohort of people spending days together at a time. There is generally no introduction of new people. Someone is sick and it spreads throughout the ship, and because the incubation for noro is so short, within days hundreds of pax have it. Because you are still still with the same group of passengers, it's see the trend and see that this is spreading on the ship.

 

But where did that first person from the ship get noro from? Most likely, they got it en route to their cruise, either from the airport they were in or the plane they were on. But it's much harder to trace an outbreak back to a 2-3 hour plane ride or a giant hub of an airport because everyone who has gotten sick has gone their separate ways. 

 

For COVID-19 it takes just one infected and maskless person to speak, cough, sneeze, one time for it to spread. This can happen on a plane or on a cruise. or anywhere. Cruises will always get the brunt of the headlines because  cases often pop up while people are still on the same itinerary. It's important to note that the cruises that made headlines in March were longer sailings, you didn't see the 3 day booze cruises making headlines because if someone was exposed Day 1, they wouldn't show symptoms until they were home. But that doesn't mean cruise ships are any more of a hot spot than an airplane, it just means it's a case that's easy to solve.

 

We'll all get back to cruising. Remember, this virus is still new and has only been around for less than a year. That's pennies in the science world. But we have learned a lot so far in that amount of time and can only learn more. 

 

EDIT: the aviation industry employee wrote about what protocols are in place to make flying safer. That certainly helps with transmission risk on the plane itself but the airport is its own petri dish, and once passenger traffic is back to more normal numbers it'll be hard to reduce those constant exposures. The airport scares me more than the plane ride, so I'll be staying home for a bit longer 🙂 Once cruise lines are able to start cruising again they will put similar risk reduction protocols in place, and many of those have already been explained.   

Edited August 11, 2020 by Alegeeter

[jimbo5544]

52 minutes ago, Alegeeter said:

Yes, you are right about how there is no scientific fact yet. I'm sure there will be, but we just don't have it yet. However, knowing what we know about both industries and about how different viruses behave, I think beachbum53's statement is logical - if at the very least to suggest that both flying and cruising as they were before COVID-19 are very risky. 

 

As an epidemiologist, when I weigh the risks of transmission, there are two very important factors: numbers of virus introductions and proximity/space. Yes, cruises hold a lot more people at any time. However, airplanes carry a lot more people per amount of space, AND also important for virus transmission, introduce more new people per period of time. Airplanes are also not cleaned as thoroughly - though protocols may change because of COVID-10 - whereas cruise ships are cleaned throughout the day. Worse, the number of passengers from all over at an airport (from touching check-in kiosks to security bins, to using the restroom, eating, in seating areas at gates, etc.) at any given time increases the chances of virus introduction. 

 

Norovirus, for example. I know COVID-19 isn't Norovirus, but let's take one virus we know a lot about in this industry just to see how it compares. Cruise ships make headlines when there's an outbreak - they're called petri dishes of the sea. Why is that? A cruise ship is the most convenient setting to study an outbreak because you have a large cohort of people spending days together at a time. There is generally no introduction of new people. Someone is sick and it spreads throughout the ship, and because the incubation for noro is so short, within days hundreds of pax have it. Because you are still still with the same group of passengers, it's see the trend and see that this is spreading on the ship.

 

But where did that first person from the ship get noro from? Most likely, they got it en route to their cruise, either from the airport they were in or the plane they were on. But it's much harder to trace an outbreak back to a 2-3 hour plane ride or a giant hub of an airport because everyone who has gotten sick has gone their separate ways. 

 

For COVID-19 it takes just one infected and maskless person to speak, cough, sneeze, one time for it to spread. This can happen on a plane or on a cruise. or anywhere. Cruises will always get the brunt of the headlines because  cases often pop up while people are still on the same itinerary. It's important to note that the cruises that made headlines in March were longer sailings, you didn't see the 3 day booze cruises making headlines because if someone was exposed Day 1, they wouldn't show symptoms until they were home. But that doesn't mean cruise ships are any more of a hot spot than an airplane, it just means it's a case that's easy to solve.

 

We'll all get back to cruising. Remember, this virus is still new and has only been around for less than a year. That's pennies in the science world. But we have learned a lot so far in that amount of time and can only learn more. 

 

EDIT: the aviation industry employee wrote about what protocols are in place to make flying safer. That certainly helps with transmission risk on the plane itself but the airport is its own petri dish, and once passenger traffic is back to more normal numbers it'll be hard to reduce those constant exposures. The airport scares me more than the plane ride, so I'll be staying home for a bit longer 🙂 Once cruise lines are able to start cruising again they will put similar risk reduction protocols in place, and many of those have already been explained.   

Great post!

[Tapi]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

Nice post.  Is it true American and United have dropped the middle seat free feature?

Yes. Right now, Jetblue, Delta and Southwest are still blocking the middle seat.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

5 hours ago, Tapi said:

Yes. Right now, Jetblue, Delta and Southwest are still blocking the middle seat.

Indeed. And as you pointed out, by most accounts, they've also cracked down on the pax refusing to wear masks. 
 

https://www.krmsradio.com/delta-airlines-adds-100-people-to-no-fly-list-due-to-masks/

 

This would seem to reinforce the CDC conclusion that airline travel is not as high risk as many would think. (As opposed to cruises, where science is pretty well unanimous that the threat is substantial). 
And why cruise lines continue punting on their restart dates. 
 

 

[dltvermont]

17 hours ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

Indeed. And as you pointed out, by most accounts, they've also cracked down on the pax refusing to wear masks. 
 

https://www.krmsradio.com/delta-airlines-adds-100-people-to-no-fly-list-due-to-masks/

 

This would seem to reinforce the CDC conclusion that airline travel is not as high risk as many would think. (As opposed to cruises, where science is pretty well unanimous that the threat is substantial). 
And why cruise lines continue punting on their restart dates. 
 

 

 

Not sure why they dont just shut down any booking of any itinerary until they know whats going on. I guess other than the fact that when someone books a cruise they can "use" that money until the cruise is cancelled but then they have to give people something for the inconvenience so seems to me they arent really gaining anything.

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

8 minutes ago, dltvermont said:

 

Not sure why they dont just shut down any booking of any itinerary until they know whats going on. I guess other than the fact that when someone books a cruise they can "use" that money until the cruise is cancelled but then they have to give people something for the inconvenience so seems to me they arent really gaining anything.

The cruise lines' business model right now is to keep the executives' compensation flowing by a shell game of selling/FCCing fictitious cruises. All about using customers' cash as interest-free loans.
     (Don't be surprised if the current crop of executives vanishes when the payments come due .... all three major lines have taken on crippling debt & cut capacity.

But at least the execs are still living large)

Edited August 12, 2020 by EscapeFromConnecticut

[jetsfan58]

Sounds like you are throwing in the towel. Please don't. Cruising is a multi billion dollar business and growing. The best part is less that 30% of the total US population has ever cruised. That spells a bunch of "future and legacy" revenue for this Industry.   

 

There are not going anywhere anytime soon.

[jetsfan58]

Carnival is the business of making money while keeping us happy. They are no different than any other Board controlled Corporation. Even if they have no idea of what tomorrow may bring they still have to make the "appearance" that all is well and moving forward. 

 

If they were to stop the booking process they would then appear to be at a "lost cause" situation and our loyalties would be at risk. They are in no way going to shut down the booking process whatever their end game motives may be.     

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

38 minutes ago, jetsfan58 said:

Carnival is the business of making money while keeping us happy. They are no different than any other Board controlled Corporation. Even if they have no idea of what tomorrow may bring they still have to make the "appearance" that all is well and moving forward. 

 

If they were to stop the booking process they would then appear to be at a "lost cause" situation and our loyalties would be at risk. They are in no way going to shut down the booking process whatever their end game motives may be.     

    We'll know later .... but it's a decent bet that CCL and others have lost a LOT of their loyalists with the shams, scams and shameless shell games since March. 
    Seabourn, a vastly better-run subsidiary,  treated customers with respect: I believe there have been a total of two rounds of cancelations, each to distant dates in the future.

     Carnival & other mass-market lines treated their customers as ignoramuses,

dangling shiny OBCs to trick 'em out of cash again and again, month after month. 
    And so you get the painful accounts on CC of deeply disappointed families pondering "how could we get canceled AGAIN?" 
     (Hint: when Donald admits publicly in July that his company hasn't developed protocols to deal with a pandemic that dates back to March, the you KNOW that CCL is playing its loyal customers as chumps when it's selling August or October sailings).

     Hey, maybe everyone forgets and eventually gives CCL a pass. Too big to fail & all that.
      But some of us recall when Pan Am, Eastern, Conrail, AMC, Plymouth and Pontiac were all certain to be around in the future - whether it was greedy & incompetent execs, vulture capitalist owners or simple contempt for their customers, they were guaranteed to come out the other side in great shape. ⚰️
    

[jetsfan58]

10 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

    We'll know later .... but it's a decent bet that CCL and others have lost a LOT of their loyalists with the shams, scams and shameless shell games since March. 
    Seabourn, a vastly better-run subsidiary,  treated customers with respect: I believe there have been a total of two rounds of cancelations, each to distant dates in the future.

     Carnival & other mass-market lines treated their customers as ignoramuses,

dangling shiny OBCs to trick 'em out of cash again and again, month after month. 
    And so you get the painful accounts on CC of deeply disappointed families pondering "how could we get canceled AGAIN?" 
     (Hint: when Donald admits publicly in July that his company hasn't developed protocols to deal with a pandemic that dates back to March, the you KNOW that CCL is playing its loyal customers as chumps when it's selling August or October sailings).

     Hey, maybe everyone forgets and eventually gives CCL a pass. Too big to fail & all that.
      But some of us recall when Pan Am, Eastern, Conrail, AMC, Plymouth and Pontiac were all certain to be around in the future - whether it was greedy & incompetent execs, vulture capitalist owners or simple contempt for their customers, they were guaranteed to come out the other side in great shape. ⚰️
    

I appreciate and can certainly understand your viewpoints. I can also remember flying Braniff Airlines, watching General Motors produce less quality vehicles and still praying that Walmart Unionize.  True customer loyalty remains even through the tough and not so "warm and fuzzy" times. I have been a loyal Carnival Cruise patron for many of years. I will continue to follow them through this and other crisis. They have never failed to provide me and my family with the utmost in our chosen vacationing experiences. They are the reason we stopped taking land vacations many years ago.

 

Continue to watch the headlines and be patient. It will all work out and we will be Sailing again soon.    

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

36 minutes ago, jetsfan58 said:

I appreciate and can certainly understand your viewpoints. I can also remember flying Braniff Airlines, watching General Motors produce less quality vehicles and still praying that Walmart Unionize.  True customer loyalty remains even through the tough and not so "warm and fuzzy" times. I have been a loyal Carnival Cruise patron for many of years. I will continue to follow them through this and other crisis. They have never failed to provide me and my family with the utmost in our chosen vacationing experiences. They are the reason we stopped taking land vacations many years ago.

 

Continue to watch the headlines and be patient. It will all work out and we will be Sailing again soon.    

   Yes, definitely lots of loyal CCL fans will stay with them - and many of those folks will do so for excellent reasons. Carnival and its sister lines will need them more than ever.
    What we won't know for months - or maybe years - is how many customers they've needlessly lost, though. Some

of it is the fault of the pandemic, but an awful lot is at the feet of low-quality executives and the industry's worst enemy, CLIA. 
     The last senior execs out Korvettes, TWA and Eastern would all have testified that they were doing outstanding work & merited bonuses. In truth, they shamelessly rode the businesses into the ground while siphoning off as much as possible for themselves.
    We'll see whether that's the case with Donald, Duffy and the rest of that crew.

     Either way, thanks for an intelligent and enjoyable response. Happy sailing to ya.
    
    

[jetsfan58]

My pleasure and Happy Sailing to you also. I really feel that the Carnival Organization would now probably rather be dealing with how to safely and effectively maneuver their vessels through the Florida Hurricane Season. However, they are forced to deal with finding viable solutions to getting us back on board and Cruising safely. 

 

My hats off to them for tackling the issues and keeping us updated on a regular basis. The most exciting day will be when the news headlines read "It Is Once Again Safe To Cruise With Carnival"!!!     

[PhillyFan33579]

5 hours ago, jetsfan58 said:

Sounds like you are throwing in the towel. Please don't. Cruising is a multi billion dollar business and growing. The best part is less that 30% of the total US population has ever cruised. That spells a bunch of "future and legacy" revenue for this Industry.   

 

There are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Have you been living under a rock the last 6 months? Right now the cruise lines are not even close to a multi billion dollar business and they aren’t growing, they are shrinking with several companies already going under. Cruise lines are burning money left and right. If cruises don’t resume in the not too distant future from the US, and there is nothing indicating they will resume operations any time soon, there may be no recognizable cruise lines left when US ports reopen to cruise ships. 

[Radiioman46]

And some ports are even considering doing away with cruise ships altogether.  

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, Radiioman46 said:

And some ports are even considering doing away with cruise ships altogether.  

Which would those be?

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

9 hours ago, Radiioman46 said:

And some ports are even considering doing away with cruise ships altogether.  

True, we'll find out in November with this one:

https://www.wlrn.org/2020-08-12/federal-judge-dismisses-challenge-to-key-west-cruise-ship-ballot-questions

 

 

[Radiioman46]

16 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Which would those be?

There is also Grand Cayman talking about not allowing ships. Or, limiting to two only.

[jimbo5544]

3 hours ago, ChC said:

 

Venice comes to mind.

There is nothin new to Venice’s love/hate relationships with cruise lines.  They took a tough stance about three years ago and.....now they are back to welcoming cruise ships.  To the earlier comment (not by you) of KeyWest, we shall see when it gets voted on in November.  The difference is KeyWest Has another viable option.....Americans can fly or drive or take the high speed ferry from Ft Myers.  Totally unique situation.

[jetsfan58]

There is always a very valuable lesson to be learned in every major fiasco. The major lesson here for our Caribbean friends and neighbors would be to carefully and patiently restructure their "infrastructure" so that they are deemed independent. Then our dollars that we actively and openly spend during our Cruises will not significantly matter to their economic livelihood. 

 

Until these actions are enacted, they will continue to rely on our "Missed" monies.