CDC

[ipeeinthepool]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I think they can, but it will require a lot of money, and maybe some time as well.  The most onerous as far as cost and time to arrange will be the privately contracted shoreside services (medical facility, transportation services, quarantine facility).  This is the biggest difference I see, along with the simulated cruises, from the European requirements.  The EU is allowing the lines to make agreements with the local health care system for treatment and quarantine, while the US is requiring private facilities.

 

That's why I keep thinking the easiest approach would be to convert some of their unused ships into medical and quarantine facilities.

[grandgeezer]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

That depends on the number of beds the CDC requires per hundred passengers, and then which ships and what capacity they sail at.  CDC tends to be a worst case scenario planner.

There is a wise saying "plan for the worst, hope for the best". 

[phoenix_dream]

On 11/1/2020 at 7:30 PM, nocl said:

They can dock 3 in their cruise terminal.

Considering the number of cruise lines that we may be talking about, 3 ships is not many.  And it goes way beyond the ships themselves, they would need much larger embarkation/debarkation areas, quarantine areas, considerably more hotel rooms, restaurants, etc..  Not saying they couldn't use that as an embarkation port in a limited way, but for usage similar to FLL or MIA it is just not possible.

[nocl]

4 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

Considering the number of cruise lines that we may be talking about, 3 ships is not many.  And it goes way beyond the ships themselves, they would need much larger embarkation/debarkation areas, quarantine areas, considerably more hotel rooms, restaurants, etc..  Not saying they couldn't use that as an embarkation port in a limited way, but for usage similar to FLL or MIA it is just not possible.

May not be much, but unlike most other Caribbean ports, Barbados does home port some ships.  Most other Caribbean ports do not function as starting/ending ports.

 

It may not be many, but it could handle 21 ships per week out of that port.  Which is not exactly a small number when one looks at ports around the world. A similar number to Southampton.

[TeeRick]

23 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

That's why I keep thinking the easiest approach would be to convert some of their unused ships into medical and quarantine facilities.

Ok in thinking and brainstormimg further here, it still seems that multiple cruise lines getting together for shared, isolated, quarantined private medical facilities is the most cost effective and logical to meet the CDC requirements.    In the Caribbean for starters.  Perhaps one facility each in western, eastern and southern Caribbean.  In addition to one in FLL.  Perhaps they can set up these facilities on a private island or in a port approved by the local government. All facilities and protocols also inspected and approved by the CDC with cooperation from the local governments.   A cruise ship with an outbreak of passengers requiring a facility could make its way to the closest one and safely drop off the infected/sick passengers for testing, processing, medical treatment, whatever is necessary.  And yes perhaps a few old cruise ships refurbished and dedicated to this purpose could serve as these facilities too.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Ok in thinking and brainstormimg further here, it still seems that multiple cruise lines getting together for shared, isolated, quarantined private medical facilities is the most cost effective and logical to meet the CDC requirements.    In the Caribbean for starters.  Perhaps one facility each in western, eastern and southern Caribbean.  In addition to one in FLL.  Perhaps they can set up these facilities on a private island or in a port approved by the local government. All facilities and protocols also inspected and approved by the CDC with cooperation from the local governments.   A cruise ship with an outbreak of passengers requiring a facility could make its way to the closest one and safely drop off the infected/sick passengers for testing, processing, medical treatment, whatever is necessary.  And yes perhaps a few old cruise ships refurbished and dedicated to this purpose could serve as these facilities too.

The CDC conditional sail order does not require privately contracted facilities in other countries, since they can't.  Neither can they require protocols in those countries.  What those countries require is another thing.  And, again, it depends on how many health care beds and quarantine beds per passenger berth are required, as to whether a pooled approach will work.

[TeeRick]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The CDC conditional sail order does not require privately contracted facilities in other countries, since they can't.  Neither can they require protocols in those countries.  What those countries require is another thing.  And, again, it depends on how many health care beds and quarantine beds per passenger berth are required, as to whether a pooled approach will work.

chengkp75,

I do definitely understand that.  But really just brainstorming to see if there are other non-traditional solutions.  Granted these solutions would require cooperation between governments.  And trust.  But it might be a win-win if handled properly.  

[phoenix_dream]

6 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Ok in thinking and brainstormimg further here, it still seems that multiple cruise lines getting together for shared, isolated, quarantined private medical facilities is the most cost effective and logical to meet the CDC requirements.    In the Caribbean for starters.  Perhaps one facility each in western, eastern and southern Caribbean.  In addition to one in FLL.  Perhaps they can set up these facilities on a private island or in a port approved by the local government. All facilities and protocols also inspected and approved by the CDC with cooperation from the local governments.   A cruise ship with an outbreak of passengers requiring a facility could make its way to the closest one and safely drop off the infected/sick passengers for testing, processing, medical treatment, whatever is necessary.  And yes perhaps a few old cruise ships refurbished and dedicated to this purpose could serve as these facilities too.

This touches on one of my biggest concerns about resuming cruising.  If I get sick with a deadly disease, possibly caught onboard, I don't want to be dumped off at some third world country with who knows what kind of medical facilities.  Even if by some miracle they are able to pay to ensure appropriate medical treatment, what happens to those traveling with me?  Will they create bulk housing for those folks?  Individual cabins?  What if I am so sick I am there for weeks, or months?  What happens to my family traveling with me?  I could go on and on.  I fear it will take lots and lots and lots of dedication and cooperation for the cruise lines to get all this worked out.  I certainly agree if they could coordinate some of this stuff it would be better for all.

[Baron Barracuda]

7 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Ok in thinking and brainstormimg further here, it still seems that multiple cruise lines getting together for shared, isolated, quarantined private medical facilities is the most cost effective and logical to meet the CDC requirements.    In the Caribbean for starters.  Perhaps one facility each in western, eastern and southern Caribbean.  In addition to one in FLL.  Perhaps they can set up these facilities on a private island or in a port approved by the local government. All facilities and protocols also inspected and approved by the CDC with cooperation from the local governments.   A cruise ship with an outbreak of passengers requiring a facility could make its way to the closest one and safely drop off the infected/sick passengers for testing, processing, medical treatment, whatever is necessary.  And yes perhaps a few old cruise ships refurbished and dedicated to this purpose could serve as these facilities too.

 Building and staffing multiple medical facilities with ICU's would be a lengthy and expensive project.  Perhaps simpler to contract with an existing US mainland healthcare facility and charter a couple of medevac planes.  Sick passengers can be off-loaded at any island without disrupting ships itinerary.  Also need transport for patients families.

[Fouremco]

35 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

If I get sick with a deadly disease, possibly caught onboard, I don't want to be dumped off at some third world country with who knows what kind of medical facilities. 

In most "third world" countries that you are like to visit while cruising, the medical facilities are better equipped to deal with life threatening emergencies than those onboard. Better to medevac'd to a facility ashore IMO.

[nocl]

10 hours ago, TeeRick said:

chengkp75,

I do definitely understand that.  But really just brainstorming to see if there are other non-traditional solutions.  Granted these solutions would require cooperation between governments.  And trust.  But it might be a win-win if handled properly.  

problems with design. carpets and other materials not easily cleaned to hospital standards. Cabin doors not wide enough for standard gurneys.  cost a lot to convert for medical facility use.

[TeeRick]

15 hours ago, Baron Barracuda said:

 Building and staffing multiple medical facilities with ICU's would be a lengthy and expensive project.  Perhaps simpler to contract with an existing US mainland healthcare facility and charter a couple of medevac planes.  Sick passengers can be off-loaded at any island without disrupting ships itinerary.  Also need transport for patients families.

I think the cruise industry needs to be looking for a more general and long term solution for sick passengers, positive asymptomatic passengers and their families.  Same for the crew.  COVID will be with us and on cruise ships really for many years.  Vaccine or no vaccine.  And other infectious pathogens are out there ready to follow.  So the cruise industry needs a creative (and shared) fix even if a costly one. Or risk survival as an industry.  Medivacs and onshore facilities can be part of a solution but they are not dedicated and will possibly get overwhelmed at certain times.

[TeeRick]

11 hours ago, nocl said:

problems with design. carpets and other materials not easily cleaned to hospital standards. Cabin doors not wide enough for standard gurneys.  cost a lot to convert for medical facility use.

Agree.  I do not think unused cruise ships are the long term solution.  But it is an idea that keeps surfacing.

[TeeRick]

15 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

This touches on one of my biggest concerns about resuming cruising.  If I get sick with a deadly disease, possibly caught onboard, I don't want to be dumped off at some third world country with who knows what kind of medical facilities.  Even if by some miracle they are able to pay to ensure appropriate medical treatment, what happens to those traveling with me?  Will they create bulk housing for those folks?  Individual cabins?  What if I am so sick I am there for weeks, or months?  What happens to my family traveling with me?  I could go on and on.  I fear it will take lots and lots and lots of dedication and cooperation for the cruise lines to get all this worked out.  I certainly agree if they could coordinate some of this stuff it would be better for all.

I have the same concern overall but I do not personally view most of the Caribbean islands as Third World countries.  But no matter, the proposal being discussed by me is to set up new, modern, expertly staffed  and fully dedicated facilities on some geographically dispersed and strategic locations on the most travelled cruise itinerary routes in the Caribbean.  And the entire cruise industry would opt in to share their costs and be able to use them.  Of course this could also be done elsewhere like the Mediterranean too.  

[phoenix_dream]

26 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

I have the same concern overall but I do not personally view most of the Caribbean islands as Third World countries.  But no matter, the proposal being discussed by me is to set up new, modern, expertly staffed  and fully dedicated facilities on some geographically dispersed and strategic locations on the most travelled cruise itinerary routes in the Caribbean.  And the entire cruise industry would opt in to share their costs and be able to use them.  Of course this could also be done elsewhere like the Mediterranean too.  

True, most Caribbean islands are probably Second World countries, if there were such a thing, and as Fouremco mentioned the facilities would likely be better than those onboard the ship.  If what you propose were possible, it would ally some of my concerns.  But how likely is it that the cruise lines, even if cooperating, could design such facilities and then convince expert medical staff to go there?   Besides the medical staff shortage/strain everyone is already experiencing due to Covid, these facilities would specifically be designed for patients with the virus.  I don't see a lot of hands being raised saying hire me.  The other issue I see is that it is possible (perhaps not likely unfortunately) that with a reliable vaccine and time, this virus will be very much under control.  How much money would they be willing to invest in facilities like this, which I imagine are very expensive, with the thought that they might only be needed for a year or two.  But at the same time, they have to do something to satisfy the CDC requirements and for their own reputation.

 

The more I think these things through the more concerned I get about cruise lines ever being able to sail safely again and meet the CDC requirements, until the virus is brought down to virtually nil, or a very effective cure and/or vaccine is discovered.  And will they still be inexistence by then?  I am normally an optimistic person, but not feeling that way much right now as regards cruising.

[Fouremco]

6 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

But how likely is it that the cruise lines, even if cooperating, could design such facilities and then convince expert medical staff to go there?   Besides the medical staff shortage/strain everyone is already experiencing due to Covid, these facilities would specifically be designed for patients with the virus.  I don't see a lot of hands being raised saying hire me.

Excellent point. I could perhaps envisage emergency facilities being constructed and equipped, but I can't possibly see the requisite medical staff being hired to sit on their hands waiting for cruise ship passengers to come down with the virus.

[Cruise Raider]

16 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

This touches on one of my biggest concerns about resuming cruising.  If I get sick with a deadly disease, possibly caught onboard, I don't want to be dumped off at some third world country with who knows what kind of medical facilities.  Even if by some miracle they are able to pay to ensure appropriate medical treatment, what happens to those traveling with me?  Will they create bulk housing for those folks?  Individual cabins?  What if I am so sick I am there for weeks, or months?  What happens to my family traveling with me?  I could go on and on.  I fear it will take lots and lots and lots of dedication and cooperation for the cruise lines to get all this worked out.  I certainly agree if they could coordinate some of this stuff it would be better for all.

 

I read this early on and haven't seen it resurface in this latest edict from the CDC but, we have seen it in Italy.  Before cruising from the US can fully resume, the cruises were to be 

1) stay relatively close to a shoreline / ports that have facilities that can accommodate any newly diagnosed CoVid cases

2) only allow people to cruise that live in the area (this one drew a lot of criticism, probably why we never saw this repeated in CLIAs recommendations to the CDC)

3) sailings no longer to include cruises over 7 days 

4) 

 

Now, we see that cruiseships will be required to have available isolation rooms and those passengers that were exposed to the infected patient, but are still testing negative, may have to quarantine in their stateroom.  The CDC wrote that may require the 7 day limitation per their 40 page document.  Although I don't 

In addition, I believe in the CDC guidelines, they must address a non-public transportation option in case of illness.  

But, more important, I don't think you will see cruiselines include ports in third world countries.  If it does, I wouldn't book one of these in the early stages of resumption of operations.  My initial sailings would probably only include those that are 7 days from Seattle up to Alaska or San Francisco / LA on a California coastal.  

[TeeRick]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

True, most Caribbean islands are probably Second World countries, if there were such a thing, and as Fouremco mentioned the facilities would likely be better than those onboard the ship.  If what you propose were possible, it would ally some of my concerns.  But how likely is it that the cruise lines, even if cooperating, could design such facilities and then convince expert medical staff to go there?   Besides the medical staff shortage/strain everyone is already experiencing due to Covid, these facilities would specifically be designed for patients with the virus.  I don't see a lot of hands being raised saying hire me.  The other issue I see is that it is possible (perhaps not likely unfortunately) that with a reliable vaccine and time, this virus will be very much under control.  How much money would they be willing to invest in facilities like this, which I imagine are very expensive, with the thought that they might only be needed for a year or two.  But at the same time, they have to do something to satisfy the CDC requirements and for their own reputation.

 

The more I think these things through the more concerned I get about cruise lines ever being able to sail safely again and meet the CDC requirements, until the virus is brought down to virtually nil, or a very effective cure and/or vaccine is discovered.  And will they still be inexistence by then?  I am normally an optimistic person, but not feeling that way much right now as regards cruising.

Agree with your concerns about staffing.  That's why I am calling this brainstorming - all opinions appreciated.  Unfortunately I think the virus will be with us and the cruise industry much longer than 1-2 years from now.😟

[ipeeinthepool]

I'm still hoping that by next April the crew and the old folks are vaccinated.  This will start to put some life back into the cruise industry.

[Baron Barracuda]

2 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Excellent point. I could perhaps envisage emergency facilities being constructed and equipped, but I can't possibly see the requisite medical staff being hired to sit on their hands waiting for cruise ship passengers to come down with the virus.

Might be attractive for older semi-retired doctors, especially if location has little or no income taxes.

[MamaFej]

Remember that medical professionals with NGOs such as Doctors Without Borders go to all sorts of places where most would dare not go. 

 

I appreciate the brainstorming, even just as an intellectual exercise, whether the suggestions are viable or not. Sometimes great, viable ideas are sparked by not-so-great ones. 

[cscurlock]

1 hour ago, ipeeinthepool said:

I'm still hoping that by next April the crew and the old folks are vaccinated.  This will start to put some life back into the cruise industry.

This is the most likely scenario.  I suspect whatever rules are currently listed by the CDC will be changed drastically by February.  They are talking like 250,000 cases a day in the US by January.  They need to get some universal vaccinated card that can be used world wide.  Might be a good idea to get the UN to help with that.  So until the virus is irradicated world wide you need one of those to board the ship.  

[BigAl94]

5 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

This is the most likely scenario.  I suspect whatever rules are currently listed by the CDC will be changed drastically by February.  They are talking like 250,000 cases a day in the US by January.  

More like half a million cases per day NOW!  https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/06/dr-scott-gottlieb-daily-us-covid-cases-are-at-least-half-a-million.html

[cscurlock]

1 minute ago, BigAl94 said:

More like half a million cases per day NOW!  https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/06/dr-scott-gottlieb-daily-us-covid-cases-are-at-least-half-a-million.html

Yeah its just ridiculous.  Cruising with that many cases is like a recipe for disaster.  Put that in context when the initial cruise ships were infected the cases were not high and now we want to start cruising with that number?  Make absolutely no sense.  I think even in Europe they shut down all the cruises rules or not.

[ipeeinthepool]

31 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

This is the most likely scenario.  I suspect whatever rules are currently listed by the CDC will be changed drastically by February.  They are talking like 250,000 cases a day in the US by January.  They need to get some universal vaccinated card that can be used world wide.  Might be a good idea to get the UN to help with that.  So until the virus is irradicated world wide you need one of those to board the ship.  

 

I'm not sure you need any cards, I suspect that you'll continue with the same testing protocol for a while.  But if the crew is vaccinated, the ship will be "clean" at the beginning of every voyage.  If the old folks are vaccinated and begin to cruise again because they no longer fear the disease, cruising will become revitalized very soon.  I suspect we'll have the mask rules and social distancing for at least the next year.  Once you've been vaccinated you won't fear every person you see.