CDC

[ipeeinthepool]

3 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

You are correct I am not.  That said cruising is still non-essential, it is an option/luxury as a means of vacation.  I wish everyone was working, but again, filling the non-essential cruise ships with goods, scanning our bar codes, checking our passports...is still non-essential.

 

Reviving the travel industry is essential.  Sorry you don't agree. I'm glad the view looks good from your high horse.

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Reviving the travel industry is essential. (a luxury) Sorry you don't agree.(apology accepted) I'm glad the view looks good from your high horse. (I don't own a horse)

 

[hcat]

4 hours ago, BigAl94 said:

Why on earth do you presume that cruise ship crew will have a priority on vaccine?  Or indeed the elderly - healthcare workers and shielding vulnerable will surely be the first priority.

Elderly are vulnerable...by def.  We usually have health issues and immunity issues.   I fall into 2 categories at least..would want the vaccine..not necesarily for cruising,  Crew might get vaccines in home countries???

[LGW59]

3 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

The idea that international crew who are not allowed to work in the US would have any priority on being vaccinated is folly and would be political suicide in the US.  Am sure the cruise lines will arrange for vaccine for crew members and administer the vaccine on board.  Surely they can arrange for vaccine in the many countries they operate.

While transportation workers are considered essential the rules certainly do not apply to cruise ships as those people do not work in the US.

As was said the WHO and CDC both have vaccination records that are accepted in almost every country that requires specific immunizations or vaccinations.  CDC cards common where I live.

and yes, perhaps the cruise lines can ask the countries in which they fly their flags to pay for their employees vaccines.  Just a thought

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

and yes, perhaps the cruise lines can ask the countries in which they fly their flags to pay for their employees vaccines.  Just a thought

such as Liberia, Panama, Vanuata, Cyprus...these are the countries where they pay their pretend taxes, let them put their tax dollars to work.  

[nocl]

20 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Reviving the travel industry is essential.  Sorry you don't agree. I'm glad the view looks good from your high horse.

Looking at the numbers reviving the land based tourism industry in Florida would have far greater impact that the cruise industry. The cruise line industry had a total of 15, 460,000 passengers in 2016, that is less than just DisneyLand Magic Kingdom in the same year at 20,395,000.  If you look at all amusement parks in Florida in that year the total was 81,658,000.  

 

Unlike the cruise lines those businesses pay property tax, sales tax and US income tax. So that makes the value to the state even more.

 

In some ways cruise travelers are to the home ports what they are to the ports the cruise visits.  Days trippers that spend little outside of the cruise.  They often fly in the day of the cruise and fly out the day the ship returns.  Making their major spend the transportation from the airport to/from the cruise.

 

There are some exceptions, just as there are some that spend more at the ports.  But just as to a lot of people a t-shirt is a big purchase at a port, the taxi to/from the ship is their big purchase in the home port.

 

so if it was an value comparison of where to focus the effort of which to bring back first, the land tourism in the state delivers more value.

[nocl]

59 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

such as Liberia, Panama, Vanuata, Cyprus...these are the countries where they pay their pretend taxes, let them put their tax dollars to work.  

Some of the lines that are home based in Europe are qualifying for loans from their home countries (TUI for example)

[ipeeinthepool]

7 hours ago, nocl said:

Looking at the numbers reviving the land based tourism industry in Florida would have far greater impact that the cruise industry. The cruise line industry had a total of 15, 460,000 passengers in 2016, that is less than just DisneyLand Magic Kingdom in the same year at 20,395,000.  If you look at all amusement parks in Florida in that year the total was 81,658,000.  

 

Unlike the cruise lines those businesses pay property tax, sales tax and US income tax. So that makes the value to the state even more.

 

In some ways cruise travelers are to the home ports what they are to the ports the cruise visits.  Days trippers that spend little outside of the cruise.  They often fly in the day of the cruise and fly out the day the ship returns.  Making their major spend the transportation from the airport to/from the cruise.

 

There are some exceptions, just as there are some that spend more at the ports.  But just as to a lot of people a t-shirt is a big purchase at a port, the taxi to/from the ship is their big purchase in the home port.

 

so if it was an value comparison of where to focus the effort of which to bring back first, the land tourism in the state delivers more value.

 

You continue to miss the point.  It's not about you or me cruising or the cruise line paying taxes.  By most scenarios it will be years before the cruise lines pay income taxes to any country.  It's about the travel and tourism industry and the people that work in that industry.  Those people are out of work, period.  There's no working from home.  There's no manufacturing another product.  Unemployment continues to be reduced throughout the country in most industries but not travel and tourism.  This isn't a solution that depends on a financial bailout, just vaccinate the on-board employees to let them go back to work.  If you want to vaccinate all theme park employees that great too but it won't help as much. 

 

The proposals to resume cruising are founded on building a bubble around each ship and testing everyone that gets onboard.  If the employees are vaccinated and each cruise starts with new passengers each ship will very likely start "clean" without the virus.  Many of the cruising passengers are older and will likely be some of the first vaccinated, reducing the risk even more.  The theme parks won't be testing everyone that enters and won't have that same bubble effect.  Theme theme parks also have a demographic that won't be among the first people vaccinated.  But if you have a solution that will help the theme parks in Florida and California, that's great.  Let's do it.

 

 

 

 

[ipeeinthepool]

9 hours ago, LGW59 said:

and yes, perhaps the cruise lines can ask the countries in which they fly their flags to pay for their employees vaccines.  Just a thought

 

I'm sure the cruise lines would be more than willing to pay to vaccinate their on-board employees.  Stopping the spread of the virus among the on-board crew remains a focus of the CDC. 

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Reviving the travel industry is essential.  Sorry you don't agree. I'm glad the view looks good from your high horse.

The travel industry is essential.  The vacation industry is not.  Cruising is a vacation, not travel.

[ipeeinthepool]

25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The travel industry is essential.  The vacation industry is not.  Cruising is a vacation, not travel.

 

I guess I'll need to respectfully disagree with you on this one.  I've been amazed at how everyone tries to define essential and non-essential parts of the economy.  The focus needs too be on how the economy can safely return to operation.  Travel and tourism is an important part of the economy in many areas of the country.  The ability of the guy selling t-shirts or driving the shuttle bus to earn a living is essential.  We need to get them back to work.  

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

I guess I'll need to respectfully disagree with you on this one.  I've been amazed at how everyone tries to define essential and non-essential parts of the economy.  The focus needs too be on how the economy can safely return to operation.  Travel and tourism is an important part of the economy in many areas of the country.  The ability of the guy selling t-shirts or driving the shuttle bus to earn a living is essential.  We need to get them back to work.  

By that definition, everything is essential.  It is all about priorities.

[ipeeinthepool]

Just now, chengkp75 said:

By that definition, everything is essential.  It is all about priorities.

 

Your absolutely correct. Do we need new home construction, no let's shut down that industry.  Do we need new cars, let's shut down auto manufacturing.  Do you need new clothes, let's shut down the garment industry and the department stores.  Do we need Starbucks?  Do we need professional sports or college sports, let's shut them down.  I hope we don't plan on opening ski resorts in a few weeks.  

 

You're correct it's about priorities.  Some people think of it as a vacation and people don't need a vacation, but it's much more than that to the people who depend on the travel and tourism industry to make a living.  Unlike most of the country they have been completely shutdown since March and we should help them as soon as possible.

 

If vaccinating onboard crew helps make cruising safer and helps restart the industry, let's do it.

[Yoshikitty]

13 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Your absolutely correct. Do we need new home construction, no let's shut down that industry.  Do we need new cars, let's shut down auto manufacturing.  Do you need new clothes, let's shut down the garment industry and the department stores.  Do we need Starbucks?  Do we need professional sports or college sports, let's shut them down.  I hope we don't plan on opening ski resorts in a few weeks.  

 

You're correct it's about priorities.  

 

I miss one thing in your priorities:

 

Protecting people from getting a highly contagious and by a significant number deadly Virus!

 

 

 

 

[ipeeinthepool]

12 minutes ago, Yoshikitty said:

 

I miss one thing in your priorities:

 

Protecting people from getting a highly contagious and by a significant number deadly Virus!

 

 

 

 

 

How well did closing down the economy work in Europe?  People should protect themselves as much as possible with masks and physical distancing, but we need to resume life as much as possible.  If you don't like the risk, that's absolutely fine.  Stay home and have your groceries delivered and wash them with bleach after they arrive.   But please don't try to control those of us that are willing to accept a certain amount of risk to resume our lives.  Vaccines should start to bring this nightmare to an end in the next year.

[nocl]

2 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

You continue to miss the point.  It's not about you or me cruising or the cruise line paying taxes.  By most scenarios it will be years before the cruise lines pay income taxes to any country.  It's about the travel and tourism industry and the people that work in that industry.  Those people are out of work, period.  There's no working from home.  There's no manufacturing another product.  Unemployment continues to be reduced throughout the country in most industries but not travel and tourism.  This isn't a solution that depends on a financial bailout, just vaccinate the on-board employees to let them go back to work.  If you want to vaccinate all theme park employees that great too but it won't help as much. 

 

The proposals to resume cruising are founded on building a bubble around each ship and testing everyone that gets onboard.  If the employees are vaccinated and each cruise starts with new passengers each ship will very likely start "clean" without the virus.  Many of the cruising passengers are older and will likely be some of the first vaccinated, reducing the risk even more.  The theme parks won't be testing everyone that enters and won't have that same bubble effect.  Theme theme parks also have a demographic that won't be among the first people vaccinated.  But if you have a solution that will help the theme parks in Florida and California, that's great.  Let's do it.

 

 

 

 

and the point I am making is that you can bring back cruising and most will still be out of work until land based tourism is restored because the cruise industry impact on tourism is a small part of  the florida tourism sector. 

 

To do that infections in Florida must be down. As long as it is up, cruising or no cruising the jobs will not return.

 

That places the priority on vaccinating the people that live in the state not off on cruise ships

Edited November 8, 2020 by nocl

[TeeRick]

14 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

I think it is very likely that you are right about the virus being with us for many years.  I could hope otherwise, but.....At the same time, I hope with a stronger degree of positivity that within 2 years there will be a reasonably effective vaccine that will be 50-70% effective and reduce intensity of the virus if caught, as well as maybe some much better treatments. 

I agree with you and hope right along side of you.  Keep positive!

[Yoshikitty]

1 hour ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

How well did closing down the economy work in Europe?  People should protect themselves as much as possible with masks and physical distancing, but we need to resume life as much as possible.  If you don't like the risk, that's absolutely fine.  Stay home and have your groceries delivered and wash them with bleach after they arrive.   But please don't try to control those of us that are willing to accept a certain amount of risk to resume our lives.  Vaccines should start to bring this nightmare to an end in the next year.

it‘s far more complex like you say - and I hope that you know it.

 

First of all here in Germany we where reacting quite early and in relatively high solidarity - did not close the industrial sector and went quite well.

So in the end, we did not really have a lockdown because noone was really locked down.

 

We have around 11.000 deaths with 82 million population, compare this to the US numbers and ask again how well the measures worked.

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Yoshikitty

[Yoshikitty]

2 minutes ago, Yoshikitty said:

delete

 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Yoshikitty

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

You continue to miss the point.  It's not about you or me cruising or the cruise line paying taxes.  By most scenarios it will be years before the cruise lines pay income taxes to any country.  It's about the travel and tourism industry and the people that work in that industry.  Those people are out of work, period.  There's no working from home.  There's no manufacturing another product.  Unemployment continues to be reduced throughout the country in most industries but not travel and tourism.  This isn't a solution that depends on a financial bailout, just vaccinate the on-board employees to let them go back to work.  If you want to vaccinate all theme park employees that great too but it won't help as much. 

 

The proposals to resume cruising are founded on building a bubble around each ship and testing everyone that gets onboard.  If the employees are vaccinated and each cruise starts with new passengers each ship will very likely start "clean" without the virus.  Many of the cruising passengers are older and will likely be some of the first vaccinated, reducing the risk even more.  The theme parks won't be testing everyone that enters and won't have that same bubble effect.  Theme theme parks also have a demographic that won't be among the first people vaccinated.  But if you have a solution that will help the theme parks in Florida and California, that's great.  Let's do it.

 

 

 

 

 

If you really are in it to improve the economy, why pick cruising as one of the primary industries to revive?

 

The cruise lines' own "mouthpiece" organization, CLIA, estimates that the industry has a $52.7B “total economic impact” on the US economy and “supports” 421k American jobs (2019 figures). But no basis is given for how those figures are calculated. At any rate, we can safely assume they are presenting the very best case scenario. 

 

421,000 US jobs is a drop in the bucket when compared with the following 2019 figures:

 

35,894,000  --  Education and health services

19,742,000  --  Wholesale and retail trade industries

19,606,000  --  Professional and business services

15,741,000  --  Manufacturing

10,765,000  --  Financial

 8,991,000   --  Transportation and utilities

 

and there are many, many others:  https://www.statista.com/statistics/200143/employment-in-selected-us-industries/#:~:text=In 2019%2C the education and,education and health services industry.

 

So I suspect that what you actually meant to say is more like what you just posted in another thread:

 

"You're absolutely correct, that would be a better thing to do for society.  I'm just looking for an excuse to get away from home."

 

 

 

[ipeeinthepool]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

If you really are in it to improve the economy, why pick cruising as one of the primary industries to revive?

 

The cruise lines' own "mouthpiece" organization, CLIA, estimates that the industry has a $52.7B “total economic impact” on the US economy and “supports” 421k American jobs (2019 figures). But no basis is given for how those figures are calculated. At any rate, we can safely assume they are presenting the very best case scenario. 

 

421,000 US jobs is a drop in the bucket when compared with the following 2019 figures:

 

35,894,000  --  Education and health services

19,742,000  --  Wholesale and retail trade industries

19,606,000  --  Professional and business services

15,741,000  --  Manufacturing

10,765,000  --  Financial

 8,991,000   --  Transportation and utilities

 

and there are many, many others:  https://www.statista.com/statistics/200143/employment-in-selected-us-industries/#:~:text=In 2019%2C the education and,education and health services industry.

 

So I suspect that what you actually meant to say is more like what you just posted in another thread:

 

"You're absolutely correct, that would be a better thing to do for society.  I'm just looking for an excuse to get away from home."

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry but you still have missed the point.  I suspect that most of the people in all of the areas you have listed are back to work.  The travel and tourism industry isn't.  It isn't about me, it's about all of the people that aren't working.  It's about the ports.  The cruise industry generated about $59M revenue in Port Everglades, about a third of the total.  I suspect that Miami and Port Canaveral are similar.   Port Canaveral may actually be more dependent on the cruise industry.  That's money that is taken directly out of the economy.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by ipeeinthepool

[mnocket]

3 hours ago, Yoshikitty said:

 

it‘s far more complex like you say - and I hope that you know it.

 

First of all here in Germany we where reacting quite early and in relatively high solidarity - did not close the industrial sector and went quite well.

So in the end, we did not really have a lockdown because noone was really locked down.

 

We have around 11.000 deaths with 82 million population, compare this to the US numbers and ask again how well the measures worked.

 

I get so tired of hearing people tout their City/State/Country's response to the virus.  It's just a matter of timing.  Sooner or later the virus does what viruses do.  In the case of Germany, the daily infection rate has soared - far outpacing the initial wave  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/

The German government is imposing new restrictions and some Germans are protesting those restrictions.  In short, Germany looks a lot like most other countries.

 

[LGW59]

8 minutes ago, mnocket said:

I get so tired of hearing people tout their City/State/Country's response to the virus.  It's just a matter of timing.  Sooner or later the virus does what viruses do.  In the case of Germany, the daily infection rate has soared - far outpacing the initial wave  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/

The German government is imposing new restrictions and some Germans are protesting those restrictions.  In short, Germany looks a lot like most other countries.

 

Easy solution, do not click on those related posts.

[mnocket]

4 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

Easy solution, do not click on those related posts.

That's one solution I guess, but I've never believed one should self-censor viewpoints with which one disagrees - although that seems to be quite the thing these days.

[gerelmx]

The damaging effects of stress are well known, from migraines, insomnia and stomach pains to cardiovascular problems. It can even alter the human genome. That is why vacations, being one of the best antidotes to stress, are essential to maintain good physical and mental health.

 

That is why vacations must be essential

Edited November 8, 2020 by gerelmx