Princess messages the new cruising guidelines.

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, Jancruz said:

I was telling my daughter about the talk and I remembered something..is it going to be legal to  ask if you were vaccinated..You remember freedom..what if someone says its no ones business can the cruise line legally keep them off..

I think we need a lawyers opinion..

Jancruz1

I'm not a lawyer but cruise lines have been requiring vaccinations for certain itineraries for many years.  If you don't wish to disclose your vaccination status, then don't.  Just don't expect to board their vessel.

[clo]

6 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I'm not a lawyer but cruise lines have been requiring vaccinations for certain itineraries for many years.  If you don't wish to disclose your vaccination status, then don't.  Just don't expect to board their vessel.

Exactly.

[njhorseman]

10 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I'm not a lawyer but cruise lines have been requiring vaccinations for certain itineraries for many years.  If you don't wish to disclose your vaccination status, then don't.  Just don't expect to board their vessel.

 

2 minutes ago, clo said:

Exactly.

But...aren't those vaccination requirements only when countries being visited have a requirement for the vaccination in place? It's not the cruise line's choice, it's the law of the country being visited, is it not?

[Jancruz]

2 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 

But...aren't those vaccination requirements only when countries being visited have a requirement for the vaccination in place? It's not the cruise line's choice, it's the law of the country being visited, is it not?

Yes

Jancruz1

[clo]

7 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 

But...aren't those vaccination requirements only when countries being visited have a requirement for the vaccination in place? It's not the cruise line's choice, it's the law of the country being visited, is it not?

Did you read the Johns Hopkins piece I linked to above?The answer to your question is no.

[LHT28]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

The NCLH Healthy Sail Panel recommendations do not include daily COVID-19 testing for all passengers and crew . The only requirement is pre-boarding testing, with a recommendation that cruise lines develop a program to monitor crew on an ongoing basis, but there is no specific crew testing program mandated.

 

Yes, the Healthy Sail Panel protocols, at least initially, do limit shore excursions.

 

 

This was  put out in June I think  so things will change before sailing time arrives

If only those  vaccinated are allowed  maybe daily testing  will not be required

Let's wait and  WHEN  sailing resumes instead of speculating

[clo]

Just now, LHT28 said:

This was  put out in June I think  so things will change before sailing time arrives

If only those  vaccinated are allowed  maybe daily testing  will not be required

Let's wait and  WHEN  sailing resumes instead of speculating

Yep. And at least so far there are too many false positives and false negatives to, IMO, rely on testing at all.

[njhorseman]

54 minutes ago, clo said:

Here's some info from Johns Hopkins. I assume you're familiar with them.

 

https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/11/20/could-coronavirus-vaccines-become-mandatory/

 

This country is a mess because of the kind of people you describe. A bunch of whiners who are willing to let people die.

 

 

Yes, I read it and actually I've cited the legal precedent set in Jacobson v. Massachusetts in a post I made months ago. But that ruling speaks solely to a state's power to compel vaccination so it doesn't apply here.

 

Private employers also can mandate their employees to be vaccinated if they have  a reasonable basis for doing so. It's not uncommon for hospitals to do so.

 

However, there is absolutely nothing in this article even remotely suggesting a business such as a cruise line can legally mandate that its customers be vaccinated. If you're aware of any law or court ruling that says they can please post same and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

[clo]

7 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

However, there is absolutely nothing in this article even remotely suggesting a business such as a cruise line can legally mandate that its customers be vaccinated. If you're aware of any law or court ruling that says they can please post same and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

I honestly don't thing anything has been done but it appears that it's being discussed.

 

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/covid-19-mandatory-vaccine-your-company-s-future-considerations-start-flu-season

[pinotlover]

7 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

Yes, I read it and actually I've cited the legal precedent set in Jacobson v. Massachusetts in a post I made months ago. But that ruling speaks solely to a state's power to compel vaccination so it doesn't apply here.

 

Private employers also can mandate their employees to be vaccinated if they have  a reasonable basis for doing so. It's not uncommon for hospitals to do so.

 

However, there is absolutely nothing in this article even remotely suggesting a business such as a cruise line can legally mandate that its customers be vaccinated. If you're aware of any law or court ruling that says they can please post same and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

I believe in most States the division is whether a business is classified as an “ essential service “ or not. A grocery story or pharmacy, for example, would be far more restricted from establishing restrictions than some other businesses that aren’t classified as essential. A restaurant, which isn’t classified essential , can post and enforce dress codes as they wish, whereas an essential business would have to show necessity. 
 

In no matter could a cruise line be classified as an essential business, therefore it could establish health and safety standards it deems as operationally necessary for its business.

[njhorseman]

41 minutes ago, clo said:

I honestly don't thing anything has been done but it appears that it's being discussed.

 

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/covid-19-mandatory-vaccine-your-company-s-future-considerations-start-flu-season

No...that article speaks only to employers requiring employees to be vaccinated. There's not even a hint of a discussion about requiring customers to be vaccinated.

[njhorseman]

34 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

I believe in most States the division is whether a business is classified as an “ essential service “ or not. A grocery story or pharmacy, for example, would be far more restricted from establishing restrictions than some other businesses that aren’t classified as essential. A restaurant, which isn’t classified essential , can post and enforce dress codes as they wish, whereas an essential business would have to show necessity. 
 

In no matter could a cruise line be classified as an essential business, therefore it could establish health and safety standards it deems as operationally necessary for its business.

 Hospitals and other health care facilities are perhaps the most essential of essential businesses  and they are the likely only businesses that have generally been permitted to require employees being vaccinated, so you have it backwards. 

 

 Also you're confusing what can be required of employees with what can be required of customers. This discussion is about whether cruise lines will be able to require its passengers to be vaccinated , not whether they can require their employees to be vaccinated. 

 

And dress codes are not a valid analogy. Vaccination mandates require undergoing a medical procedure that could have harmful side effects.  Wearing a coat and tie isn't in the same universe.

 

[clo]

14 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

No...that article speaks only to employers requiring employees to be vaccinated. There's not even a hint of a discussion about requiring customers to be vaccinated.

And my point is that I believe it's being discussed.

[njhorseman]

7 minutes ago, clo said:

And my point is that I believe it's being discussed.

And that article says nothing of the sort.  So far the two articles you've cited provide zero support for what you believe.

This is the only article I've seen that indicates it's being looked into:

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Norwegian-is-looking-into-the-legality-of-vaccination-requirement?fbclid=IwAR1YaW3_zuKihZPpXp-7ma2MXTFhLoq2kDrAy0vcYp_i4hWecQWy51l-pUw

Edited December 10, 2020 by njhorseman

[clo]

9 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

And that article says nothing of the sort.  So far the two articles you've cited provide zero support for what you believe.

This is the only article I've seen that indicates it's being looked into:

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Norwegian-is-looking-into-the-legality-of-vaccination-requirement?fbclid=IwAR1YaW3_zuKihZPpXp-7ma2MXTFhLoq2kDrAy0vcYp_i4hWecQWy51l-pUw

Sheesh, man, do you not think that these corporations have in-house and other lawyers. Considering their potential liability I think they sure as hell are.

[Tranquility Base]

When it comes to cruise lines and whether vaccinations will be required to board; I think Groucho said it best....

 

....." I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."

[Daniel A]

13 hours ago, njhorseman said:

And that article says nothing of the sort.  So far the two articles you've cited provide zero support for what you believe.

This is the only article I've seen that indicates it's being looked into:

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Norwegian-is-looking-into-the-legality-of-vaccination-requirement?fbclid=IwAR1YaW3_zuKihZPpXp-7ma2MXTFhLoq2kDrAy0vcYp_i4hWecQWy51l-pUw

I think that article you cited demonstrates that NCLH is at least considering the idea of mandating proof of vaccination.  That's a positive sign.

 

As an aside, why would you believe mandating proof of vaccination to be prohibited?  Even US Health and Human Services says "By law, the HIPAA Privacy Rule applies only to covered entities – health plans, health care clearinghouses, and certain health care providers. "

Edited December 10, 2020 by Daniel A

[njhorseman]

55 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I think that article you cited demonstrates that NCLH is at least considering the idea of mandating proof of vaccination.  That's a positive sign.

 

As an aside, why would you believe mandating proof of vaccination to be prohibited?  Even US Health and Human Services says "By law, the HIPAA Privacy Rule applies only to covered entities – health plans, health care clearinghouses, and certain health care providers. "

You're misunderstanding HIPAA . You have the right to deny access to your health information....in other words the entities you named can't reveal the information without your approval.

Read this brief summary :

https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/consumers/consumer_rights.pdf

 

In particular note the following (the bold type is mine):

"Learn how your health information is used and shared by your doctor or health insurer. Generally, your health information cannot be used for purposes not directly related to your care without your permission. For example, your doctor cannot give it to your employer, or share it for things like marketing and advertising, without your written authorization."

Edited December 10, 2020 by njhorseman

[Daniel A]

17 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

You're misunderstanding HIPAA . You have the right to deny access to your health information....in other words the entities you named can't reveal the information without your approval.

Read this brief summary :

https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/consumers/consumer_rights.pdf

 

In particular note the following (the bold type is mine):

"Learn how your health information is used and shared by your doctor or health insurer. Generally, your health information cannot be used for purposes not directly related to your care without your permission. For example, your doctor cannot give it to your employer, or share it for things like marketing and advertising, without your written authorization."

I don't think that I misunderstand HIIPA.  As I wrote before, HIIPA only applies to Health Care Providers or entities associated with a HCP.  Cruise Lines aren't Health Care Providers and they're not forcing a health care provider to release confidential information.  You have a right to not disclose that information but if you do refuse, the Cruise Line should also have a right to refuse booking.  As an extreme example, must a cruise line accept a group booking of the Active Lepers Society?  

 

A better example is this statement on Princess' Web Site FAQs :

 

Pregnant women are not allowed to sail if they are entering the 24th week of their pregnancy by the last day of the cruise.

 

All pregnant women are required to produce a physician’s letter stating that mother and baby are in good health, fit to travel and the pregnancy is not high risk. The letter must also include the estimated date of delivery (EDD) calculated from both Last Menstrual Period (LMP) and ultrasound (if performed).

 

Please send your physician letter to the Fleet Medical Department confidential email guestmedical@hagroup.com.

[njhorseman]

8 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I don't think that I misunderstand HIIPA.  As I wrote before, HIIPA only applies to Health Care Providers or entities associated with a HCP.  Cruise Lines aren't Health Care Providers and they're not forcing a health care provider to release confidential information.  You have a right to not disclose that information but if you do refuse, the Cruise Line should also have a right to refuse booking.  As an extreme example, must a cruise line accept a group booking of the Active Lepers Society?  

 

A better example is this statement on Princess' Web Site FAQs :

 

Pregnant women are not allowed to sail if they are entering the 24th week of their pregnancy by the last day of the cruise.

 

All pregnant women are required to produce a physician’s letter stating that mother and baby are in good health, fit to travel and the pregnancy is not high risk. The letter must also include the estimated date of delivery (EDD) calculated from both Last Menstrual Period (LMP) and ultrasound (if performed).

 

Please send your physician letter to the Fleet Medical Department confidential email guestmedical@hagroup.com.

If it's as simple and black and white as you suggest, why is it that the legality of  requiring COVID-19 vaccination status has to be investigated by the cruise lines' lawyers? 

There's absolutely no precedent for a cruise line requiring vaccination history other than when mandated by a country the ship will be visiting.

 

The cruise line has no way of enforcing the pregnancy certification unless the woman's pregnancy is clearly visible and unmistakable, and I suspect that  pregnancies not blatantly obvious to even the untrained eye are largely unreported by passengers. 

[Daniel A]

7 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

If it's as simple and black and white as you suggest, why is it that the legality of  requiring COVID-19 vaccination status has to be investigated by the cruise lines' lawyers?   Maybe because people like to sue cruise lines for almost anything.

 

 

The cruise line has no way of enforcing the pregnancy certification unless the woman's pregnancy is clearly visible and unmistakable, and I suspect that  pregnancies not blatantly obvious to even the untrained eye are largely unreported by passengers.   I do agree with you there, but if a sudden pregnancy related health crises develops which requires at sea evacuation or a diversion from the itinerary, the person who failed to disclose that information is likely to be held liable for the costs. 

 

But again, here is a cruise line requiring disclosure of a health condition and the line taking a stance that you cannot board if you have such health status.  That was the point of my post.

 

[ToxM]

Does HIPPA apply if the cruise is outside the jurisdiction of the US? 

 

I hope so, I would much prefer fellow passengers and crew to be vaccinated. 

 

I also hope that vaccinations are mandatory for any kind of close confined activity, any travel and any type of activity that is currently a physical danger for covid exposure. 

 

Anyone who chooses (not deemed unsuitable and thus unable) not to be vaccinated can sit in their house and rot as far as I am concerned. 

[Daniel A]

2 hours ago, ToxM said:

Does HIPPA apply if the cruise is outside the jurisdiction of the US? 

 

I hope so, I would much prefer fellow passengers and crew to be vaccinated. 

 

I also hope that vaccinations are mandatory for any kind of close confined activity, any travel and any type of activity that is currently a physical danger for covid exposure. 

 

Anyone who chooses (not deemed unsuitable and thus unable) not to be vaccinated can sit in their house and rot as far as I am concerned. 

I agree with much of what you wrote until the 'rot' part.  If you cannot get vaccinated due to health reasons, it's a shame, but you'll need to wait until the Covid emergency is over.  But that shouldn't prevent the rest of us from participating in any activities.

 

It will get better!

[CintiPam]

This “recovering attorney” advises that you forget HIPAA, which does not prohibit you from voluntarily disclosing any of your medical records.You are taking a cruise voluntarily hopefully. Why can’t a private entity such as a cruise line require vaccination for you to be permitted onboard its premises as long as it is not discriminating or breaking any other laws?

Edited December 11, 2020 by CintiPam

[clo]

16 minutes ago, CintiPam said:

This “recovering attorney” advises that you forget HIPAA, which does not prohibit you from voluntarily disclosing any of your medical records.You are taking a cruise voluntarily, not for your employment. Why can’t a private entity require vaccination for you to be permitted onboard?

I don't remember the details of the document that we had to provide to the cruise line when we were going to Antarctica. And it had to be a current thing signed by my doctor. And it was mandatory. The point was that finding any medical care way down there would be darn difficult. I don't know what a vaccine would be any different.