For those who are booked, are you happy with the “mandatory” shore excursions?

[nini]

Hank-

That is right! You reminded me that you go to Mexico for

the Winter... Safe travels!

[Ride-The-Waves]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

DW and I do wear masks (when social distancing is not possible) and we actually wear either N95 or KN95 masks since most other materials are not nearly as effective.   In fact one of the big "cons" was when the CDC decided to push any mask....even simple single layer bandanas (now banned by the airlines).  They apparently did this to help preserve the supply of good masks for healthcare workers but it was still a big lie that any mask is OK.  

 

As to "current thinking" about excursions we should keep in mind that cruise ship excursions are generally overpriced and a nice profit center for the cruise lines (which take a cut).  But we have been very independent world travelers for over 50 years and will leave excursions to those who love to be led by the nose on their travels.   It is not our style.  So far we have taken two post COVID trips and have been very careful (in ways that a group of 20+ cannot be careful) or perhaps we are just lucky.  We are soon off to Mexico (where we live in the winter) and will again work hard at avoiding group situations (which will really crimp our social life).   I would agree that if cruise lines adopt a mandatory vaccination requirement (where every soul aboard has to be vaccinated a few weeks prior to the cruise) then those excursions would be a safe option.  But simply cramming 20-30 cruise ship souls together on a tour, when some of those folks could actually be spreading COVID, is not my idea of safety.  Testing is not good enough to keep COVID off ships (Europe proved that) so in my little mind putting folks into groups for tours, when one or more of those folks might have COVID, is not a wise decision.

 

Hank

 

Thats what we are talking about, correct?  Vaccinated passengers and crew in small groups, probably less than 20, carefully guided to places where local officials have deem any contact with locals is safe or at least minimized.  FYI - I to have been "cruising" since first transatlantic in 1949, have lived in three western European and two eastern European cities (Belgrade and Bucharest), traveled around the world with the US Navy and have touched down on all 7 continents.  Telling us you are "independent world travelers for 50 years" has no bearing on your expertise in this matter.

[Hlitner]

1 minute ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

Thats what we are talking about, correct?  Vaccinated passengers and crew in small groups, probably less than 20, carefully guided to places where local officials have deem any contact with locals is safe or at least minimized.  FYI - I to have been "cruising" since first transatlantic in 1949, have lived in three western European and two eastern European cities (Belgrade and Bucharest), traveled around the world with the US Navy and have touched down on all 7 continents.  Telling us you are "independent world travelers for 50 years" has no bearing on your expertise in this matter.

Expertise?  My "expertise" as you put it is that we are very comfortable traveling most places without being part of a group.  And my common sense tells me that these are good times to avoid being part of any group.  Just that simple.  

 

As to the cruise line's level of expertise we have all seen how well that worked on the Diamond Princess and other ships.  And even with their restart in Europe they got it wrong when they thought that relying on testing would serve them well.  Testing is a pretty good way to gauge the seriousness of any epidemic but does absolutely nothing to prevent transmission.   While testing may certainly help limit the number of folks who get on a ship with COVID, it cannot eliminate the risk.  And since it only takes a single case of COVID to create big problems, all the testing in the world are not going to bail out the cruise industry.  To deal with a pandemic you need to be proactive (i.e. vaccines) rather then reactive (testing and subsequent quarantine).  

 

So, if you put me on a bus (not a good idea in a pandemic) with 30 other souls (any of whom could have COVID) how does that solve anything?

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Expertise?  My "expertise" as you put it is that we are very comfortable traveling most places without being part of a group.  And my common sense tells me that these are good times to avoid being part of any group.  Just that simple.  

 

As to the cruise line's level of expertise we have all seen how well that worked on the Diamond Princess and other ships.  And even with their restart in Europe they got it wrong when they thought that relying on testing would serve them well.  Testing is a pretty good way to gauge the seriousness of any epidemic but does absolutely nothing to prevent transmission.   While testing may certainly help limit the number of folks who get on a ship with COVID, it cannot eliminate the risk.  And since it only takes a single case of COVID to create big problems, all the testing in the world are not going to bail out the cruise industry.  To deal with a pandemic you need to be proactive (i.e. vaccines) rather then reactive (testing and subsequent quarantine).  

 

So, if you put me on a bus (not a good idea in a pandemic) with 30 other souls (any of whom could have COVID) how does that solve anything?  At this point no Guideline has factored-in vaccinations...mandatory or otherwise.  

 

Hank

 

[sprinkles]

2 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

Thats what we are talking about, correct?  Vaccinated passengers and crew in small groups, probably less than 20, carefully guided to places where local officials have deem any contact with locals is safe or at least minimized.  FYI - I to have been "cruising" since first transatlantic in 1949, have lived in three western European and two eastern European cities (Belgrade and Bucharest), traveled around the world with the US Navy and have touched down on all 7 continents.  Telling us you are "independent world travelers for 50 years" has no bearing on your expertise in this matter.

👍Thank You!  The bottom line is NOBODY is an expert, when it comes to “traveling by cruise ship during a pandemic “.  Well except for the experts that studied the transmission of the Spanish Flu (um WW1 infected soldiers on war ships).  They however were not cruising for leisure.  Anybody know how quickly and for how long leisure passengers stopped sailing during that.  Or did they?  Calling all history buffs for this one.

 

 

[leck57]

13 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Expertise?  My "expertise" as you put it is that we are very comfortable traveling most places without being part of a group.  And my common sense tells me that these are good times to avoid being part of any group.  Just that simple.  

 

As to the cruise line's level of expertise we have all seen how well that worked on the Diamond Princess and other ships.  And even with their restart in Europe they got it wrong when they thought that relying on testing would serve them well.  Testing is a pretty good way to gauge the seriousness of any epidemic but does absolutely nothing to prevent transmission.   While testing may certainly help limit the number of folks who get on a ship with COVID, it cannot eliminate the risk.  And since it only takes a single case of COVID to create big problems, all the testing in the world are not going to bail out the cruise industry.  To deal with a pandemic you need to be proactive (i.e. vaccines) rather then reactive (testing and subsequent quarantine).  

 

So, if you put me on a bus (not a good idea in a pandemic) with 30 other souls (any of whom could have COVID) how does that solve anything?

 

Hank

 

If everyone on a cruise ship has the vaccine all of the above points are likely to be not relevant.

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, leck57 said:

 

If everyone on a cruise ship has the vaccine all of the above points are likely to be not relevant.

If everyone on a cruise ship has the vaccine there is no reason to have a mandatory ship excursion policy :).  But then again we are assuming that the cruise lines will make logical decisions which does not give me a high level of confidence.

 

Hank

[ontheweb]

19 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

If everyone on a cruise ship has the vaccine there is no reason to have a mandatory ship excursion policy :).  But then again we are assuming that the cruise lines will make logical decisions which does not give me a high level of confidence.

 

Hank

That is one logical way to look at it. Another is that  the cruise line excursions are a nice profit maker and why not continue to make them mandatory if we can get away with it. Maybe blame it on the ports.

 

I hope we all do not have to force them to give this up by letting them know it is a deal breaker.

[deliver42]

A lot of what happens with the excursions will be decided by the ports, not the ships.

[Hlitner]

2 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

That is one logical way to look at it. Another is that  the cruise line excursions are a nice profit maker and why not continue to make them mandatory if we can get away with it. Maybe blame it on the ports.

 

I hope we all do not have to force them to give this up by letting them know it is a deal breaker.

If folks are content to cruise with mandatory excursions then that is great for the cruise lines.  But DW and I will not likely be on those cruises and the industry will lose the 100+ cruise days per year that we normally contribute.  For us, although we do miss cruising we are also very happy to simply fly someplace in Europe or Asia (once places reopen to tourism) and go off on our own.  I cannot even imagine being in a place like Italy, France, Spain or Japan and being forced to take group excursions in order to get off a ship.  We would leave cruising to those who enjoy that kind of thing and go our merry way.

 

Hank

P.S.  Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah to all 

[Hlitner]

5 minutes ago, deliver42 said:

A lot of what happens with the excursions will be decided by the ports, not the ships.

It is difficult to imagine a port/country closed to visitors and open to cruise ship excursions.  In fact, it appears that we will see just the opposite where countries will gradually reopen to visitors/tourists long before they reopen to cruise ships.  Even now, it is possible to visit many places in the Caribbean or anywhere in Mexico (our winter home) via air.  In the winter we live in a major Mexican cruise port that is now functioning with open restaurants, bars, clubs, etc.  but has no cruise ships (at least with passengers).   I would expect Europe to reopen to tourism long before they reopen to ships.  Japan is talking about starting to reopen to tourism in March/April but has not given any indication of how long it will be until they allow cruise ships with passengers from outside Asia.

 

We may have to wait until late 2021 before we see cruising again becoming a viable option but I suspect tourism (via air) will reopen in the 2nd quarter of 2021.

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

Just now, Hlitner said:

It is difficult to imagine a port/country closed to visitors and open to cruise ship excursions.  In fact, it appears that we will see just the opposite where countries will gradually reopen to visitors/tourists long before they reopen to cruise ships.  Even now, it is possible to visit many places in the Caribbean or anywhere in Mexico (our winter home) via air.  In the winter we live in a major Mexican cruise port that is now functioning with open restaurants, bars, clubs, etc.  but has no cruise ships (at least with passengers).   I would expect Europe to reopen to tourism long before they reopen to ships.  Japan is talking about starting to reopen to tourism in March/April but has not given any indication of how long it will be until they allow cruise ships with passengers from outside Asia.

 

We may have to wait until late 2021 before we see cruising again becoming a viable option but I suspect tourism (via air) will reopen in the 2nd quarter of 2021.  I expect vaccinations to be mandatory in order to avoid lengthy mandated quarantines.  And even voluntary quarantines may disappear as an open if they airlines implement their own mandatory vaccination policy (this is now being discussed).

 

Hank

 

[mcrcruiser]

28 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 

If Princess was mandating  cruise ship excursions only before our final payment for our April 2022 cruise  we would cancel  .We do our own private tours  & ship tours are long gone history for us 

[Hlitner]

45 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

If Princess was mandating  cruise ship excursions only before our final payment for our April 2022 cruise  we would cancel  .We do our own private tours  & ship tours are long gone history for us 

We have a 28 HAL Cruise, 18 day Oceania and  14 day MSC booked for 2021 (and considering more bookings).  We would also cancel the HAL and Oceania cruises if we knew prior to final pmt that they had mandatory excursions.  The MSC cruise (Yacht Club) is in the Caribbean so we don't care about the excursions since we are always happy to just stay on the ship when in Caribbean ports.  At this point we would normally be looking to book something in Europe which we would then turn into an extended trip with independent time before and/or post cruise.  But my thinking is that Europe will likely have continuing restrictions on cruising even after the continent is opened to visitors from the USA.  So we will likely forget a European cruise and consider just flying over for 4-6 weeks of independent travel (we usually rent/lease a car).  Using a car in Europe (instead of train) seems like a great idea in this COVID world.  Not only does driving give us maximum flexibility but it also keeps us away from crowded train stations and trains where any social distancing is nearly impossible.

 

Hank

[Ride-The-Waves]

We should all remember this is not just about us cruisers, it's also about local/port/country policies to keep their citizens safe.  The pandemic has changed life overt he past 12 months and we need to understand and accept that change and go with the new policies and procedures.  Getting off a cruise ship without being on a tour may likely become  requirement for some time.  As someone who has lived around the world for the past 70-plus years, I can accept that.  Whining about costs for those of us fortunate enough to frequently cruise and vacation in foreign countries is disingenuous - sorry.  Either pay the tour price - likely increased over pre-pandemic prices do to increased touring costs to keep people safe - or not get off the ship.  We, too, have always preferred smaller groups and contracted local companies or travel by ourselves.  Those local companies are likely lining up for the local government and cruise line "approved" tours.  We need to support that until things return to pre-pandemic practices.  

[Ride-The-Waves]

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

We have a 28 HAL Cruise, 18 day Oceania and  14 day MSC booked for 2021 (and considering more bookings).  We would also cancel the HAL and Oceania cruises if we knew prior to final pmt that they had mandatory excursions.  The MSC cruise (Yacht Club) is in the Caribbean so we don't care about the excursions since we are always happy to just stay on the ship when in Caribbean ports.  At this point we would normally be looking to book something in Europe which we would then turn into an extended trip with independent time before and/or post cruise.  But my thinking is that Europe will likely have continuing restrictions on cruising even after the continent is opened to visitors from the USA.  So we will likely forget a European cruise and consider just flying over for 4-6 weeks of independent travel (we usually rent/lease a car).  Using a car in Europe (instead of train) seems like a great idea in this COVID world.  Not only does driving give us maximum flexibility but it also keeps us away from crowded train stations and trains where any social distancing is nearly impossible.

 

Hank

Have just booked a March 2022 Transatlantic eastbound (stopping in Casablanca/Marrakech) and studying options in Europe following the cruise.  NOT cruising in 2021.  Currently one cannot fly from the US into Schengen countries for tourism - or back to the US for that matter.  Maybe late Summer 21 that could change.  Going by car makes sense - still need to carefully select hotels and regions.  France remains closed.  My favorite country is Switzerland (lived there for 5 years as an adolescent with a total of ten years in country and could qualify for citizenship) and it is having trouble controlling COVID-19.  Also lived in the Netherlands for 5 years.  Have traveled well over 60,000 kms across western and eastern Europe.  Know and understand the roads and customs well, to include those in the UK and Ireland.  Watch out for the painted roundabouts while driving on the left side...

 

Bottom Line:  Considering my long experience in Europe and globe travels I will abide by cruise line guidance and local direction and practices.  It's for the safety of all - the locals and the tourists.  The added expense of using an approved (local government and cruise line) tour is not a show stopper.

[Hlitner]

22 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

We should all remember this is not just about us cruisers, it's also about local/port/country policies to keep their citizens safe.  The pandemic has changed life overt he past 12 months and we need to understand and accept that change and go with the new policies and procedures.  Getting off a cruise ship without being on a tour may likely become  requirement for some time.  As someone who has lived around the world for the past 70-plus years, I can accept that.  Whining about costs for those of us fortunate enough to frequently cruise and vacation in foreign countries is disingenuous - sorry.  Either pay the tour price - likely increased over pre-pandemic prices do to increased touring costs to keep people safe - or not get off the ship.  We, too, have always preferred smaller groups and contracted local companies or travel by ourselves.  Those local companies are likely lining up for the local government and cruise line "approved" tours.  We need to support that until things return to pre-pandemic practices.  

You did neglect the other option which is do not even get on a ship in the first place.  As much as we love cruising when restrictions both onboard and at ports become unpleasant there are other options.  We recently (10 days ago) flew to Florida for a few days in Key West and Ft Myers Beach.  We carefully chose our hotels to be able to easily social distance and we also were careful with our restaurant/bar choices.  While on that trip we actually talked about a comparison to what it would be like to be on a ship with all the proposed restrictions, trying to deal with elevators that are basically COVID chambers if there are others in the car, and the various proposed dining restrictions.  The type of restrictions talked about on ships would take away much of the joy of cruising (at least for us).   It pains me to think of a life without cruising, but the reality is that land trips are very advantageous in a COVID world.

 

As to the cost of excursions, although we do think many excursions are overpriced the money is not our issue.  We simply have a strong dislike of being stuck with a large groups (to us...more then 4 is a large group) and having somebody dictate where we must go, when, with who, and where we must eat.  And no, we do not need to support cruise line tours :).  We will leave that to others.

 

Hank 

 

 

[gmjc2]

On 12/14/2020 at 10:49 AM, Hlitner said:

DW and I do wear masks (when social distancing is not possible) and we actually wear either N95 or KN95 masks since most other materials are not nearly as effective.   In fact one of the big "cons" was when the CDC decided to push any mask....even simple single layer bandanas (now banned by the airlines).  They apparently did this to help preserve the supply of good masks for healthcare workers but it was still a big lie that any mask is OK.  

 

As to "current thinking" about excursions we should keep in mind that cruise ship excursions are generally overpriced and a nice profit center for the cruise lines (which take a cut).  But we have been very independent world travelers for over 50 years and will leave excursions to those who love to be led by the nose on their travels.   It is not our style.  So far we have taken two post COVID trips and have been very careful (in ways that a group of 20+ cannot be careful) or perhaps we are just lucky.  We are soon off to Mexico (where we live in the winter) and will again work hard at avoiding group situations (which will really crimp our social life).   I would agree that if cruise lines adopt a mandatory vaccination requirement (where every soul aboard has to be vaccinated a few weeks prior to the cruise) then those excursions would be a safe option.  But simply cramming 20-30 cruise ship souls together on a tour, when some of those folks could actually be spreading COVID, is not my idea of safety.  Testing is not good enough to keep COVID off ships (Europe proved that) so in my little mind putting folks into groups for tours, when one or more of those folks might have COVID, is not a wise decision.

 

Hank

Any mask is better than no mask when someone spits or sneezes within 10 feet of you ( 6 feet has been proven to be ineffective by scientists.)

[DrivesLikeMario]

John Chernesky said last week that "ship-sponsored tours" MAY include tours by independent operators that are "approved" as safe by Princess.  So if the independent tour company agrees to "follow Princess' protocols" (and probably pays a premium to Princess for the privilege), they might be allowed to run tours in addition to the cruise line's tours.  It's something Princess is working on now.

Edited December 15, 2020 by DrivesLikeMario

[gmjc2]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Have just booked a March 2022 Transatlantic eastbound (stopping in Casablanca/Marrakech) and studying options in Europe following the cruise.  NOT cruising in 2021.  Currently one cannot fly from the US into Schengen countries for tourism - or back to the US for that matter.  Maybe late Summer 21 that could change.  Going by car makes sense - still need to carefully select hotels and regions.  France remains closed.  My favorite country is Switzerland (lived there for 5 years as an adolescent with a total of ten years in country and could qualify for citizenship) and it is having trouble controlling COVID-19.  Also lived in the Netherlands for 5 years.  Have traveled well over 60,000 kms across western and eastern Europe.  Know and understand the roads and customs well, to include those in the UK and Ireland.  Watch out for the painted roundabouts while driving on the left side...

 

Bottom Line:  Considering my long experience in Europe and globe travels I will abide by cruise line guidance and local direction and practices.  It's for the safety of all - the locals and the tourists.  The added expense of using an approved (local government and cruise line) tour is not a show stopper.

One can fly into Europe, we just have to follow their quarantine laws. On return to the US we have to clear special screening at one of 15 specific airports. So it is annoying but doable!!

[Ride-The-Waves]

2 hours ago, gmjc2 said:

Any mask is better than no mask when someone spits or sneezes within 10 feet of you ( 6 feet has been proven to be ineffective by scientists.)

South Korean study from a restaurant indicates that 15 feet is more appropriate and safe.

[Ride-The-Waves]

1 hour ago, gmjc2 said:

One can fly into Europe, we just have to follow their quarantine laws. On return to the US we have to clear special screening at one of 15 specific airports. So it is annoying but doable!!

And you need to have  business or close family reason for the travel.

 

Here is a look from the EU for which regions are open for US citizen tourism:  Europe is in the middle of the "second wave" of the pandemic and travel is on a case basis.

 

https://reopen.europa.eu/en/map/CHE/8001

 

 

[Ride-The-Waves]

1 hour ago, DrivesLikeMario said:

John Chernesky said last week that "ship-sponsored tours" MAY include tours by independent operators that are "approved" as safe by Princess.  So if the independent tour company agrees to "follow Princess' protocols" (and probably pays a premium to Princess for the privilege), they might be allowed to run tours in addition to the cruise line's tours.  It's something Princess is working on now.

Makes sense.  

[donaldsc]

4 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

We should all remember this is not just about us cruisers, it's also about local/port/country policies to keep their citizens safe.  The pandemic has changed life overt he past 12 months and we need to understand and accept that change and go with the new policies and procedures.  Getting off a cruise ship without being on a tour may likely become  requirement for some time.  As someone who has lived around the world for the past 70-plus years, I can accept that.  Whining about costs for those of us fortunate enough to frequently cruise and vacation in foreign countries is disingenuous - sorry.  Either pay the tour price - likely increased over pre-pandemic prices do to increased touring costs to keep people safe - or not get off the ship.  We, too, have always preferred smaller groups and contracted local companies or travel by ourselves.  Those local companies are likely lining up for the local government and cruise line "approved" tours.  We need to support that until things return to pre-pandemic practices.  

 

Why.  If the available options of doing a bubble tour or staying on the ship are not acceptable, don't go. 

 

Option 3 - find another way to spend your travel money such as booking several long term places to stay and spend several or more days in a few places and thoroughly exploring these few places as opposed to flitting from one place to another on a cruise.  All of these options obviously depend upon the assumption that we can travel at all.

 

Option 4 - explore your home country as opposed to traveling to foreign countries.

 

I am perfectly willing to doing options 3 or 4 if what the cruise companies offer me are not  acceptable.  

 

DON

[gmjc2]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

And you need to have  business or close family reason for the travel.

 

Here is a look from the EU for which regions are open for US citizen tourism:  Europe is in the middle of the "second wave" of the pandemic and travel is on a case basis.

 

https://reopen.europa.eu/en/map/CHE/8001

 

 

I admit to only checking details for the UK but there is no mandate for business or family. Latest update from Boris is 10 days quarantine without test. 5 days if you are willing to pay $200 for a test on the 6th day of quarantine. Horses mouth, as I am British and get the latest updates from my family--On the UK gov website if you do not trust my family info! Feel free to check.