2021 Alaskan cruise season will be cancelled

[AKStafford]

On 2/5/2021 at 4:47 PM, d9704011 said:

The President will continue to be a strong advocate for the Jones Act 

As other's have pointed out... It's the Passenger Vessel Service Act that applies to passenger vessels like cruise ships. Not the Jones Act.

[rkacruiser]

On 2/6/2021 at 5:17 PM, njhorseman said:

You're not really looking for an answer, are you?

 

Not really, but it just seems to me that laws written in the 19th Century that were appropriate for then need to be re-visited in the 21st Century.  

 

2 minutes ago, AKStafford said:

Yeah... we need the economic activity Come on up! Wear your mask and there's plenty of room for social distancing.

 

I am concerned about your State because of the enjoyment that I have received as a tourist.  I am concerned about Alaska because I have relatives who are your State's citizens and have benefited because of the economic activity that tourism provides.  

[njhorseman]

4 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

Not really, but it just seems to me that laws written in the 19th Century that were appropriate for then need to be re-visited in the 21st Century.  

So you must think  cruise lines incorporated in foreign countries, registering their ships under flags of convenience, building their ships in foreign countries and employing almost no American citizens on board, all of which is done to avoid paying US income taxes on their profits, avoid US wage and employment laws and build their ships for far less cost than if they were constructed in the USA should be able to have the same privileges smaller lines such as American Cruise Lines that build their ships here, employ US citizens on board, pay federal income taxes on their profits and have to comply with US labor laws.

 

 How can you possibly justify that ? 

[msufan90]

My family has an Alaskan cruise booked for August and I looks like it will be cancelled.  I'm wondering if when any of you have gotten a response from your Alaskan cruise, are they offering any alternatives like Carribean?    I guess we could always cancel and rebook a different cruise (if it even goes) but wondering if they would bump up our cabin for the "trouble" 

[Heidi13]

21 minutes ago, msufan90 said:

My family has an Alaskan cruise booked for August and I looks like it will be cancelled.  I'm wondering if when any of you have gotten a response from your Alaskan cruise, are they offering any alternatives like Carribean?    I guess we could always cancel and rebook a different cruise (if it even goes) but wondering if they would bump up our cabin for the "trouble" 

 

Every cruise line handles the cancellations differently, so suggest posting on the Board for the Line they are booked with.

 

Our preferred Line advises all affected pax in writing, the day before it makes a public announcement. You receive an email advising the cruise is cancelled and it includes a 125% FCV for all monies paid for the cruise fare, flights, tours, etc. The letter also provides the option of a 100% cash refund, which you need to call them to request, within about 10 days. Cash refunds, once requested take a couple of days to process.

[LHARTWICK]

22 hours ago, AKStafford said:

Yeah... we need the economic activity Come on up! Wear your mask and there's plenty of room for social distancing.

Not that easy for those of us from the lower 48 to do:  https://covid19.alaska.gov/travelers/#nonres

[IDKaren]

On 2/4/2021 at 6:37 PM, LocoLoco1 said:

Two points: HAL called today and informed me that my Fall 2021 ALASKA cruises are hereby cancelled. Secondly, US  Pres. Biden publicly stated his support for ‘No foreign-flagged shipping for domestic sailings’. With that, I have kissed ALASKA g’bye for 2021. 

 

[IDKaren]

Was that just wash to Alaska or did it start out of Vancouver? We have an Alaska cruise booked end of June from Seattle. I wonder if it too will be cancelled!

 

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, IDKaren said:

Was that just wash to Alaska or did it start out of Vancouver? We have an Alaska cruise booked end of June from Seattle. I wonder if it too will be cancelled!

 

A cruise from Seattle would still have to make a port call in Canada...typically made in Victoria...so your cruise will be cancelled. Canada isn't even permitting the ships to enter its waters, much less make a port call.

[rkacruiser]

20 hours ago, njhorseman said:

How can you possibly justify that ? 

 

I understand your point.

 

There is the another aspect to this, however.

 

U. S. and Canadian citizens employed by cruise agents in the United States and Canada that gain employment by these "foreign" cruise companies.

 

Providers of goods and services and their employees that supply the ships.

 

The local merchants and their employees who benefit by the patronage of their cruise customers.

 

All pay taxes to their respective governments.  

 

And, what about the international staffs on the cruise ships?  Are their minimal salaries and the gratuities that they receive tax-free in the country of their residence?  

 

The economic repercussions of this pandemic are so wide spread, I think, that few of us can really comprehend what they are.    

 

 

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I understand your point.

 

There is the another aspect to this, however.

 

U. S. and Canadian citizens employed by cruise agents in the United States and Canada that gain employment by these "foreign" cruise companies.

 

Providers of goods and services and their employees that supply the ships.

 

The local merchants and their employees who benefit by the patronage of their cruise customers.

 

All pay taxes to their respective governments.  

 

And, what about the international staffs on the cruise ships?  Are their minimal salaries and the gratuities that they receive tax-free in the country of their residence?  

 

The economic repercussions of this pandemic are so wide spread, I think, that few of us can really comprehend what they are.    

 

 

I can comprehend it  very easily. The economic impact of the cruise industry is small relative to our total economy. All those in the US and Canada working in other industries...restaurants, hotels, movie theaters, Broadway-type theaters, sports and entertainment venues, etc. who have lost their jobs or had their hours slashed to the bone because of the pandemic far outnumber those affected by the cruise industry shutdown. 

In a similar discussion some time ago on Cruise Critic I pointed out that based on the amount of the cruise industry's  economic contribution to our economy that CLIA touted in some glossy report the reality was that large-looking number was actually a negligible percentage of the total US economy...or as I put in more colorful language a pimple on the rear end of the US economy.

 

That's not intended to minimize or ignore the impact of the cruising shutdown on those directly affected by it, but it's intended to point out that there are far more people in other industries suffering as much or more, and it to bend over backwards for an industry that pays no taxes and employs few Americans is an insult to the American taxpayers .

 

As far as the international cruise ship staff is concerned, again without ignoring or minimizing their suffering, why is it the responsibility of American taxpayers to support them when they contribute nothing to our economy?

 

My bottom line opinion of the cruise industry is that they've chosen to live by a blood-sucking business model and if that leads to the  demise of much of the industry as we know it today they have no one to blame but themselves. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Edited February 9, 2021 by njhorseman

[rkacruiser]

19 hours ago, njhorseman said:

That's not intended to minimize or ignore the impact of the cruising shutdown on those directly affected by it, but it's intended to point out that there are far more people in other industries suffering as much or more, and it to bend over backwards for an industry that pays no taxes and employs few Americans is an insult to the American taxpayers .

 

Somewhere, out there, there is probably some interesting data that shows the amount cruise companies contribute to our economy through their purchase of supplies and various commodities and services.  How many times have I heard on the audio  for the Fort Lauderdale/Port Everglades web cam of a company in Miami that supplies divers and their services to service the hulls/propellers of the ships that call at Port Everglades?  Their services wouldn't come cheap, I don't think.  This is just one example of an economic benefit to our economy that may be overlooked.

 

I do not disagree that there are many business entities that are hurting.  The entire hospitality industry and all that they would/have employed are hurting.  If cruising were to resume:  flights to/from ports would increase, employing how many?  Pre-cruise/post-cruise nights would be booked at hotels, employing how many for the hotels, the restaurants these guests would patronize, the taxi/Uber/Lyft drivers that would cart these guests around?  

 

19 hours ago, njhorseman said:

As far as the international cruise ship staff is concerned, again without ignoring or minimizing their suffering, why is it the responsibility of American taxpayers to support them when they contribute nothing to our economy?

 

Crew do not help to support our economy?  You must not have observed dozens of crew members leaving their ship to go to stores to buy personal items, snacks, etc. and returning with bags full.  Drug stores, small convenience stores, etc. and the employees of those stores:  don't they receive some benefit from such money being spent?  

 

Granted the benefit to our economy is quite small, but "some income for a small business" is better than "no income".  Or, do you disagree with that thought?  

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Somewhere, out there, there is probably some interesting data that shows the amount cruise companies contribute to our economy through their purchase of supplies and various commodities and services.  How many times have I heard on the audio  for the Fort Lauderdale/Port Everglades web cam of a company in Miami that supplies divers and their services to service the hulls/propellers of the ships that call at Port Everglades?  Their services wouldn't come cheap, I don't think.  This is just one example of an economic benefit to our economy that may be overlooked.

 

I do not disagree that there are many business entities that are hurting.  The entire hospitality industry and all that they would/have employed are hurting.  If cruising were to resume:  flights to/from ports would increase, employing how many?  Pre-cruise/post-cruise nights would be booked at hotels, employing how many for the hotels, the restaurants these guests would patronize, the taxi/Uber/Lyft drivers that would cart these guests around?  

 

 

Crew do not help to support our economy?  You must not have observed dozens of crew members leaving their ship to go to stores to buy personal items, snacks, etc. and returning with bags full.  Drug stores, small convenience stores, etc. and the employees of those stores:  don't they receive some benefit from such money being spent?  

 

Granted the benefit to our economy is quite small, but "some income for a small business" is better than "no income".  Or, do you disagree with that thought?  

 

I told you where to find a statement of the cruise industry's estimated contribution to the US economy; it's in a report issued by the industry's trade association, CLIA. Here's a link to a summary of the most recent version, which claims that the industry generated $55.5 billion in economic activity in the US in 2019. 

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2020/november/cruise-industry-contribution-to-us-economy-grew-to-55-billion-in-2019#:~:text=In 

 

Let's assume the $55.5 billion number is accurate, although in a trade association puff piece I would expect every blind and unverifiable estimate to be stated as favorably as possible to the industry .  That's a lot of money to you and me, but it's a relatively small percentage the US economy, which in 2019 had an estimated gross domestic product of $21.43 trillion. 

 

 On turn around day only a small percentage of the crew is allowed off the ship. It's the busiest day of any itinerary and it's not when very many of the crew shop, because they can't. They shop on port days, many or most of which are in foreign countries on most itineraries.

Edited February 10, 2021 by njhorseman

[TLCOhio]

Many good questions as to why this old, old Federal law cannot be change and/or modified.  There are various "interests" involved and we cannot discuss some of those factors here that could be involved and stopping any such change.

 

From the below-linked trade publication this morning, they had this headline: “With Alaska season on the ropes, lines challenged on cabotage law” with these important highlights: “Alaska lawmakers were not alone in raising the possibility of changing or waiving laws to enable the industry to operate in Alaska waters this summer. Cruise and travel associations suggested they would seek a temporary waiver to the PVSA for the summer.  But historical precedence indicates that it is far easier said than done: A PVSA waiver has never been granted to the cruise industry. And many industry stakeholders know getting one would mean a steep uphill battle.  The reasons are manifold.  Charlie Papavizas, chair of the maritime practice for Winston & Strawn, has written extensively about the Jones Act, the maritime cabotage law of which the PVSA is a part, and said that historically, 'waivers are exceptions rather than the rule.'  The letter of the law stipulates that any waiver has to be in the interest of national defense, which Papavizas said is 'very difficult' to prove. He found that in virtually every denial, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) has determined there to be an insufficient national defense interest.  In what also bodes badly for the cruise industry's chances for a waiver, Papavizas found that in the CBP's many denials, it indicated that a Jones Act waiver 'cannot be issued solely for economic reasons,' simply because there is a 'private economic benefit' or where the interest expressed is solely 'commercial in nature.'  In recent years, Jones Act waivers have been made primarily during natural disasters to enable getting relief to places like Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria.”

 

Here is more background and history cited in this story/analysis: "Rod McLeod, former chief marketing officer at Royal Caribbean International and a former executive at Carnival Corp. and Norwegian Cruise Line, has been in or consulted for the industry for more than four decades and has never seen a PVSA waiver granted to the cruise industry.  'If there was any time in the history of the PVSA that an exception should be granted, it is now,' he said. "'t will protect jobs in Seattle, clearly in Alaska -- all American jobs. A lot of people are going to be hurt by this.'  Despite that, he is "'not really confident that they'd make an exception.'  The unions that support the law, he said, particularly the Seafarers International Union, would not want to allow any precedence to be set."

 

Full story at:

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/With-Alaska-season-on-the-ropes-lines-challenged-on-cabotage-law

 

THANKS!  Enjoy!  Terry in Ohio

 

Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle cruise from Copenhagen, July 2010, to the top of Europe. Scenic visuals with key tips. Live/blog at 241,369 views.

www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[njhorseman]

39 minutes ago, TLCOhio said:

Charlie Papavizas, chair of the maritime practice for Winston & Strawn, has written extensively about the Jones Act, the maritime cabotage law of which the PVSA is a part,

As I noted on another thread where you posted this, either the lawyer or Travel Weekly have mistakenly said that the PVSA is part of the Jones Act, which it is not as the PVSA predates the Jones Act by 34 years.

[duquephart]

On 2/5/2021 at 7:50 PM, rkacruiser said:

 

Regarding the pandemic:  yes.  You are probably correct.  But, there is also another side of this story.

 

My Nephew and his family are Alaskan citizens.  The arrival of tourist season is a season of mixed emotions for many Alaskans.  Particularly for those who have been or are engaged in the tourist/hospitality/leisure industry.  

 

My Nephew's career is not in such an industry.  His family has benefited because of his employment as a part-time worker in the tourist industry during the tourist season.  There are those Alaskan citizens whose jobs were directly related to we, the tourists, to help provide them employment.  

 

With the news that the 2021 Alaska season is "toast", I am very concerned about these folks.  

 

Consider the restaurants, cafes, venues, privately operated tours, etc. that we have all patronized during visits to our 49th State.  How much longer will some of these companies be able to exist with another year of no or few tourist dollars?  

 

Do you want to visit Alaska with the plans to dine at a favorite restaurant remembering the best Halibut and Chips you ever ate only to find that the restaurant folded?  

 

The fallout of this news exceeds just "no cruises" to Alaska for 2021.  

 

Not always the case. Skagway, for instance, is for all practical purposes owned by CCl.

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, duquephart said:

 

Not always the case. Skagway, for instance, is for all practical purposes owned by CCl.

 

Would you care to explain what you meant by this statement?  

 

"Not always the case" in response to my post:   I don't understand what you are thinking.  

[oaktreerb]

On 2/15/2021 at 1:59 PM, rkacruiser said:

 

Would you care to explain what you meant by this statement?  

 

"Not always the case" in response to my post:   I don't understand what you are thinking.  

Skagway is a National Historic Park.  Carnival Corp in 2018 invested in the White Pass Railway as well as the dock area.  If you google Carnival investment in Skagway you will see several articles related to the transaction.  

 

The cruise lines have invested a lot in Alaska to support the cruise business.  Icy Strait built a 2nd dock to support cruise ships just before the shutdown.  

 

Holland America and Princess have built some very nice lodges as well as the Westmark hotels in Anchorage and Fairbanks to support the cruise business,  They have also invested in the cruise ship docks in Whittier.  

 

The ships are foreign flagged and the staffs are international.  We live in a global society and cruising gives us all an opportunity to enjoy meeting people from this global society.  When foreign flagged ships sail in U.S. waters the ports enjoy the benefits of tourism dollars....jobs for port workers, revenue for hotels from extended stays, local tourist attractions and restaurants.  

 

Hopefully the people that make these decisions can get ships sailing again so we can spend our tourism dollars.

[rkacruiser]

5 minutes ago, oaktreerb said:

Hopefully the people that make these decisions can get ships sailing again so we can spend our tourism dollars.

 

And, spend our tourism dollars in Alaska!  

 

Thanks for your post.  The individual to which I was responding has yet to respond to my post.  

[Cool_Dude]

On 2/4/2021 at 7:37 PM, LocoLoco1 said:

Two points: HAL called today and informed me that my Fall 2021 ALASKA cruises are hereby cancelled. Secondly, US  Pres. Biden publicly stated his support for ‘No foreign-flagged shipping for domestic sailings’. With that, I have kissed ALASKA g’bye for 2021. 

Has anyone bothered to check to see what HAL has actually said on the website? 

"... the company is extending its pause of cruise operations for all departures through April 30, 2021. This includes Alaska, Mexican Riviera, Pacific Coast, Caribbean, Mediterranean and Canada/New England departures."

" the company is extending its pause of cruise operations for all departures through April 30, 2021. This includes Alaska, Mexican Riviera, Pacific Coast, Caribbean, Mediterranean and Canada/New England departures."

and finally,

"

Cruises impacted by this pause in operation are:

• All cruise departures through April 30, 2021.
   
• Alaska: Eurodam and Oosterdam through the first week of June (roundtrip from Seattle); Koningsdam through mid-May (roundtrip from Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada); Nieuw Amsterdam and Noordam through mid-May (roundtrip Vancouver and between Vancouver and Whittier, Alaska); and Zuiderdam though early June (roundtrip from Vancouver)."

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/news/impacted-cruises.html

 

Thus, Fall 2021 HAL Alaskan Cruises have NOT been cancelled as of 21 Feb 2021. 

 

I am always mystified as to why people post false information.

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, Cool_Dude said:

Has anyone bothered to check to see what HAL has actually said on the website? 

"... the company is extending its pause of cruise operations for all departures through April 30, 2021. This includes Alaska, Mexican Riviera, Pacific Coast, Caribbean, Mediterranean and Canada/New England departures."

" the company is extending its pause of cruise operations for all departures through April 30, 2021. This includes Alaska, Mexican Riviera, Pacific Coast, Caribbean, Mediterranean and Canada/New England departures."

and finally,

"

Cruises impacted by this pause in operation are:

• All cruise departures through April 30, 2021.
   
• Alaska: Eurodam and Oosterdam through the first week of June (roundtrip from Seattle); Koningsdam through mid-May (roundtrip from Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada); Nieuw Amsterdam and Noordam through mid-May (roundtrip Vancouver and between Vancouver and Whittier, Alaska); and Zuiderdam though early June (roundtrip from Vancouver)."

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/news/impacted-cruises.html

 

Thus, Fall 2021 HAL Alaskan Cruises have NOT been cancelled as of 21 Feb 2021. 

 

I am always mystified as to why people post false information.

You've posted incomplete information. While HAL has technically not cancelled the entire Alaska cruise season, like many other cruise lines they have ceased accepting new bookings. What this means is that they are not very optimistic about being able to cruise in Alaska (as well as do Canada/New England cruises) in 2021 as there's little chance of their being able to obtain either a PVSA exemption that would allow them to bypass a foreign port call or of Canada eliminating its cruise ship  ban in time for the 2021 season.

Here's what HAL says...and as I mentioned it's similar to what some other cruise lines have stated:

https://www.hollandamerica.com/en_US/news/2021-press-releases1/news-02042021-AlaskaCanadaRestrictions.html

 

"Statement In Response Canadian Transport Minister Interim Order No. 5 Passenger Vessel Restrictions Due To COVID-19 Extended Through February 2022

 

Seattle, Wash., Feb. 4, 2021 — We are disappointed to learn about Canada’s decision to extend the interim order that prohibits cruise ships from sailing in its waters and calling on Canadian ports through February 2022 (one year from now). This extension, if not amended as pandemic conditions improve, would require us to cancel our Alaska (West Coast) and Canada/New England (East Coast) cruise vacation seasons this year.

Given the unexpected length of the order, it will take us some time to assess whether there are any options to preserve a portion of the 2021 Alaska season. While we await further information, we have (temporarily) stopped selling Alaska and Canada/New England 2021 cruises, which call on Canadian ports.

We will be consulting authorities in both the U.S. and Canada before we take any additional action. Our highest responsibility and top priorities include operational and environmental compliance, protecting the environment, and the health, safety and well-being of our guests, the communities we visit, and our crew and shoreside employees. The cruise industry has demonstrated its commitment to health and safety through the development of extensive protocols in consultation with a panel of world-class medical experts, which will be implemented when we resume service. In addition, we recognize our importance to the economic health of many Alaskan communities and will continue to pursue any option which might permit safe operation of any portion of the season.   

Despite the potential impact to our Alaska sailings, we are committed to operating one of our two Denali lodges, the Westmark Fairbanks Hotel and Kenai Princess Wilderness Lodge this summer to support land vacations in Alaska’s magnificent interior. We will continue to maintain a focus on what we can do to support our fellow Alaska businesses, the thousands of people who rely on the tourism industry, and the regions in which we operate.

While this is beyond our control, we remain committed to operating any portion of our Alaska season and we are hopeful that positive progress relative to the pandemic accelerates to the point that the Canadian Transport Minister will rescind the interim order and allow cruise vacations to resume in 2021."

 

[oaktreerb]

On 2/4/2021 at 6:37 PM, LocoLoco1 said:

Two points: HAL called today and informed me that my Fall 2021 ALASKA cruises are hereby cancelled. Secondly, US  Pres. Biden publicly stated his support for ‘No foreign-flagged shipping for domestic sailings’. With that, I have kissed ALASKA g’bye for 2021. 

I’ve obviously missed something here.  So I apologize in advance.  Which FALL 2021 ALASKA did HAL call you to say it was cancelled...date and itinerary?

[diesel1973]

Talked to my nephew in Alaska tonight and travel restrictions have been cancelled .except for Anchorage. Will be looking for airfares for this summer. Can't wait to get up there!!!

[Italy52]

On 2/21/2021 at 7:04 PM, diesel1973 said:

Talked to my nephew in Alaska tonight and travel restrictions have been cancelled .except for Anchorage. Will be looking for airfares for this summer. Can't wait to get up there!!!

Heard about the travel restrictions being cancelled as well.  Did not know that Anchorage was an exception.  Is there anything in writing I can follow to see if an when Anchorage might open up?

 

[donaldsc]

On 2/7/2021 at 3:05 PM, AKStafford said:

As other's have pointed out... It's the Passenger Vessel Service Act that applies to passenger vessels like cruise ships. Not the Jones Act.

 

I can not figure out why so many supposedly intelligent people have so much difficulty differentiating the Jones Act passed in 1920 w the PVSA passed in 1886.  Why do so many people seem to think that they are somehow the same act or one law is part of the other law.  Totally mystifies me.

 

For those people, repeat over and over until it is permanently part of your memory 

 

"Jones - freight.  PVSA - people."

 

DON