NCL tells CDC all crew & passengers to be vaccinated, will HAL, X, Royal do the same?

[KirkNC]

16 minutes ago, albingirl said:

Well, I'm in Florida, and it's been refreshing to see how open the state is.  Without getting political, there are alot of states still under strict restrictions after over a year.  Businesses shut down, shops closed and so on.  I don't think our governor is overreaching on this; take a look at other states first before casting a stone at Desantis.  We've been vaccinated for months now, and our northern neighbors are still begging for a shot.  I hope all the cruise lines require a vaccine.  I don't want my cruise ruined because some sneak comes aboard with a fake record.  When I book a cruise, it isn't to stay on the ship.  If covid breaks out, we are all doomed to skip ports we have dearly wanted to visit.

Florida is 38th in vaccinations as a percentage of population so not sure your fever lines up with the facts.

 

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html

 

And 26th in total cases per 100,000.

 

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-confirmed-covid-19-cases-july-1.html

I agree with your position on vaccinations for cruises.

[albingirl]

27 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

Florida is 38th in vaccinations as a percentage of population so not sure your fever lines up with the facts.

 

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html

 

And 26th in total cases per 100,000.

 

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-confirmed-covid-19-cases-july-1.html

I agree with your position on vaccinations for cruises.

With all due respect, he made the senior population a top priority.  So, seniors and Holland America=equals a win for the cruise line.  I think the statistics you quote can be misleading at times.  No offense meant, but the news is so full of misinformation that most of us don't know whether the truth prevails.  

[Hlitner]

18 hours ago, KirkNC said:

That was my take, it’s rich that a Republican Governor (I.e. less government interference) would even issue such an order.  I don’t think it would hold up in court if he does.  What else does he want to control, how about the requirement that employees wash hands when going to the bathroom, or the no shirt, no shoes, no service some businesses follow, the list could go on.  Talk about government over reach.  

This seems to be a Republican position (around the country) to oppose any kind of vaccination passport.  While I can understand that attitude when it comes to a government requirement, it makes less sense to me when it comes to a private business.  If a business wants to deny service to anyone who is unvaccinated, I do not see why it is even a government issue.  Just paint me a libertarian but I do think a business should be able to set their own standards as long as it does not run afoul of our discrimination laws.

 

Hank

[KirkNC]

28 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

This seems to be a Republican position (around the country) to oppose any kind of vaccination passport.  While I can understand that attitude when it comes to a government requirement, it makes less sense to me when it comes to a private business.  If a business wants to deny service to anyone who is unvaccinated, I do not see why it is even a government issue.  Just paint me a libertarian but I do think a business should be able to set their own standards as long as it does not run afoul of our discrimination laws.

 

Hank

I agree.  The hypocrisy of taking positions without regards to a set of underlying principles is the hallmark of politicians.

[geocruiser]

  Which do you think would be worse for HAL (or other cruise lines) that don't require all PAX to be vaccinated?

 Not requiring PAX to be fully vaccinated before the cruise or having a sick ship at sea and coming back to port sick? 

I believe that having a sick ship would cause more damage to a cruise line that asking for it PAX to have the vaccination.  Picture was the news media would do to the cruise line that comes back with a sick ship.  

[idiebabe]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

This seems to be a Republican position (around the country) to oppose any kind of vaccination passport.  While I can understand that attitude when it comes to a government requirement, it makes less sense to me when it comes to a private business.  If a business wants to deny service to anyone who is unvaccinated, I do not see why it is even a government issue.  Just paint me a libertarian but I do think a business should be able to set their own standards as long as it does not run afoul of our discrimination laws.

 

Hank

This was in response  to NY (and some other "Blue" States and reports of the same from the WH until Jen Psaka stated they were not in favor of Vaccine Passports) why DeSantis, Texas, and others came out and opposed the Vaccine Passports. If NY didn't start this, it wouldn't even be an issue but, IMO, I'm glad there was push back.  

 

We do not want either a "Red" or a "Blue" State telling us who we can or cannot allow into my Restaurant and agree it should be left up to the Private Businesses.  Unlike the majority who are opining on the subject I actually have a Seat at this Table!  I would rather the "Red" States decision not to allow proof of Vaccination be shown in order to enter a Restaurant than what NY is doing.  

 

We have been open throughout this entire Pandemic (except for two months closed for Indoor Dining).  Although we are located on the South End of a Tourist Town our Business is 95% Local.  This past year our loyal Customers supported us and if some choose not to Vaccinate,  they are not going to be turned away now because there is a Vaccine nor will the two Employees we have who have been on the fence about getting it be fired.  None of our Staff has had Covid...Zero Cases.  Our Indoor Dining has been very steady since reopening last May and since more and more are being Vaccinated we have been slammed for Indoor Dining.  Our To Go/Pick Ups and Deliveries have always been busy and Weekends and some other nights we are on 2 hours for Delivery and 1 1/2 hours for Pick Ups and actually have had to stop taking Orders due to the volume we still had to fill.  In addition, we have the Doordash Apps, etc.  

 

We follow our DHEC Guidelines and implemented our own enhanced Sanitation procedures.  We installed Plexiglass at our Counter and everyone has worn a Mask (and continues to do so even with our Mandate being lifted).  98% of our Staff is now Vaccinated with either 1st Dose or 2nd Dose.

 

If someone doesn't want to come in because we don't require Proof of Vaccination, then by all means go somewhere else.  That's your choice but we will not exclude some of our  Loyal Customers who supported us throughout this Pandemic (pre-Vaccine) because they choose not to get it. 

[drbees]

13 minutes ago, idiebabe said:

Simply put, all 4 of us are 4*, and under no circumstances will we ever sail on a ship that does not have a no exception, all passengers, including children, crew and entertainment required to be vaccinated.

 

 

[drbees]

13 minutes ago, idiebabe said:

Simply put, all 4 of us are 4*, and under no circumstances will we ever sail on a ship that does not have a no exception, all passengers, including children, crew and entertainment required to be vaccinated.

 

 

[geocruiser]

53 minutes ago, idiebabe said:

This was in response  to NY (and some other "Blue" States and reports of the same from the WH until Jen Psaka stated they were not in favor of Vaccine Passports) why DeSantis, Texas, and others came out and opposed the Vaccine Passports. If NY didn't start this, it wouldn't even be an issue but, IMO, I'm glad there was push back.  

 

We do not want either a "Red" or a "Blue" State telling us who we can or cannot allow into my Restaurant and agree it should be left up to the Private Businesses.  Unlike the majority who are opining on the subject I actually have a Seat at this Table!  I would rather the "Red" States decision not to allow proof of Vaccination be shown in order to enter a Restaurant than what NY is doing.  

 

We have been open throughout this entire Pandemic (except for two months closed for Indoor Dining).  Although we are located on the South End of a Tourist Town our Business is 95% Local.  This past year our loyal Customers supported us and if some choose not to Vaccinate,  they are not going to be turned away now because there is a Vaccine nor will the two Employees we have who have been on the fence about getting it be fired.  None of our Staff has had Covid...Zero Cases.  Our Indoor Dining has been very steady since reopening last May and since more and more are being Vaccinated we have been slammed for Indoor Dining.  Our To Go/Pick Ups and Deliveries have always been busy and Weekends and some other nights we are on 2 hours for Delivery and 1 1/2 hours for Pick Ups and actually have had to stop taking Orders due to the volume we still had to fill.  In addition, we have the Doordash Apps, etc.  

 

We follow our DHEC Guidelines and implemented our own enhanced Sanitation procedures.  We installed Plexiglass at our Counter and everyone has worn a Mask (and continues to do so even with our Mandate being lifted).  98% of our Staff is now Vaccinated with either 1st Dose or 2nd Dose.

 

If someone doesn't want to come in because we don't require Proof of Vaccination, then by all means go somewhere else.  That's your choice but we will not exclude some of our  Loyal Customers who supported us throughout this Pandemic (pre-Vaccine) because they choose not to get it. 

Just a question.  Do you know if any of the people who ate in your restaurant got Covid?  Happy to hear that your staff is fine.  Just curious to know if cases were reported by the diners.  The diners are the ones to take off their masks while eating.  Is there any way of you knowing this info.  Please don't take my question as being rude.  I am just curious on safety in eating out.

PS I thought by your post that you were in the food industry , that is why I ask you.

Edited April 12, 2021 by geocruiser

[idiebabe]

1 hour ago, geocruiser said:

Just a question.  Do you know if any of the people who ate in your restaurant got Covid?  Happy to hear that your staff is fine.  Just curious to know if cases were reported by the diners.  The diners are the ones to take off their masks while eating.  Is there any way of you knowing this info.  Please don't take my question as being rude.  I am just curious on safety in eating out.

PS I thought by your post that you were in the food industry , that is why I ask you.

We opened a Restaurant 13 years ago when we "semi-retired" from our "career 9 - 5 jobs".  My Son-in-Law is a technically trained Chef and opened it up both him and my Daughter.  We survived the Recession right after opening and now Covid.  The Year has been challenging and so looking forward to being able to Cruise again!

 

Valid question and happy to answer and thank you! 

 

We know of four of our regular Customers (two couples) who had Covid and the one couple who ate in did call us.  This was in December and I'd be lying if I said we weren't concerned.  The Server who took care of them worked throughout her Pregnancy and was about 8 months Pregnant when she Served them and TG she didn't get it.  We sent her to be Tested and she took off until the Test Results came back. The Servers don't want to get sick and the Owners don't want themselves or their Employees getting sick so avoiding getting sick is high priority for us all.  I know of two Restaurants that had a case or two among their Employees during the Summer.  They shutdown for a couple of days, had everyone Tested, deep cleaned, etc. before reopening.   The other Couple does Pick Up/Delivery and he didn't leave the house often due to age and serious health issues with his Heart. They weren't sure where they got it from and told us about getting Covid when she came in for a Pick Up after she was cleared by her Doctor.  If we had others, I honestly don't know.

 

If you're concerned about going out (understandably), go to a place you trust that you have been going to pre-Covid.  That's what we do!  Ironically, those of us in the Business are the pickiest when it comes to where we Dine and also have the most patience when we do.   Although we're at 100% Capacity since last October in our Dining Room our Tables are not on top of one another like some Restaurants.  Our Booths have high backs and many Restaurants that have low back Booths have installed Plexiglass between them.  You can also make a Reservation and request if they can sit you at a Table out of a high-traffic area.  Avoid going out on Weekends and go out a little earlier or later to miss the Peak Times until you feel more comfortable.  

 

Again, go to a place that you trust!  Hope this helps!

Edited April 12, 2021 by idiebabe

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, geocruiser said:

Just a question.  Do you know if any of the people who ate in your restaurant got Covid?  Happy to hear that your staff is fine.  Just curious to know if cases were reported by the diners.  The diners are the ones to take off their masks while eating.  Is there any way of you knowing this info.  Please don't take my question as being rude.  I am just curious on safety in eating out.

PS I thought by your post that you were in the food industry , that is why I ask you.

I am going to jump in for the simple reason that between Jan 3 and Mar 12, DW and I dined out 71 times over 70 days.  We did this in Puerto Vallarta and ate out at over 20 different restaurants.  DW and I are both in a COVID high risk group, were not vaccinated at the time, and Puerto Vallarta was having a significant COVID problem.  So, you might ask how we survived 10 weeks living a "nest of COVID" where restaurants were open (inside and out) without getting COVID (or any other ailment).   I think much is simply using common sense (mixed with a little luck).  Most restaurants operated with restrictions similar to many places in the States with capacity limitations.  Masking was generally required whenever a diner was not sitting at their table and we did follow this protocol.  All the waiters were masked.  When we saw a restaurant were we felt uneasy we did not dine in that place (unfortunately this meant skipping our favorite tacos place).  

 

I can tell you that we never felt endangered (from COVID) because we were careful, chose our dining venues because we they met our own standards (tougher then the mandated standards).   Is there a risk to eating out?  I do think you do run a slight risk because of interaction with a waiter.   I have always questioned all the stress on surface spread and the CDC has lately taken a similar position and admits that surface spread of COVID is very rare.  What was strange about living in Mexico (this winter) was that Puerto Vallarta's  requirements included restaurants, shops,  Condo buildings, etc. having a "foot bath" which was soaked with a liquid antibiotic.  Nobody could figure out about the risk of getting COVID on the bottom of one's sandals or how COVID on the floor would be a great risk...but that was one of the rules.

 

And finally we also traveled to Florida in early December (Key West) where we dined out every evening with no problem.  Their restaurants were open (inside and out) and followed the usual mitigation measures (capacity reductions and masks).  Again we just used common sense and avoided places that seemed too crowded or where people were packed close together.   We were also in South Carolina (noticed that is your location) in both Kiawah Island and Myrtle Beach and ate out every day with no problems.  SC restaurants also followed capacity reductions and mask wearing.

 

Hank

[idiebabe]

100% Agree!  Yes, Common Sense!

 

If you are ever in MB, let me know and come by and say hello!  😀

[geocruiser]

idiebabe & Hlitner,

 

Thank you very much for your replies.  For me I feel that the restaurants workers are doing everything that they can to stay healthy and keep their customers safe.  They don't want to get sick either.  For me it is about the other customers.  Are they healthy and /or vaccinated?  Because they will be the ones taking their mask off.  One never knows if they are healthy. 

For me I am not ready to go out and eat yet.  Covid hit my family.  Three sick, one out of the three died.  

In time this will pass . Both my parent made it through the flu of 1918.  My dad was 10 years old my mom was 2 yrs old. So, this too shall pass.

Edited April 13, 2021 by geocruiser

[Hflors]

I just noticed that Crystal are requiring vaccines to do their world cruises.  I agree and I hope hal and all cruise lines follows suit.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Hflors
Corrected unfo.

[albingirl]

23 hours ago, Hlitner said:

This seems to be a Republican position (around the country) to oppose any kind of vaccination passport.  While I can understand that attitude when it comes to a government requirement, it makes less sense to me when it comes to a private business.  If a business wants to deny service to anyone who is unvaccinated, I do not see why it is even a government issue.  Just paint me a libertarian but I do think a business should be able to set their own standards as long as it does not run afoul of our discrimination laws.

 

Hank

Perfect. I wonder how many people who are against getting a vaccine would like to step on board with an unvaccinated crew. 

[rucrazy]

Here in Maryland we are experiencing an up tick in COVID cases, I am currently doing pulmonary PT at our local hospital, and todays discussion was about the uptick.

One of my therapist has a sister who works as a nurse in the COVID wing of the hospital she stated that while hospitalizations are increasing many of the new patients are from people who received both doses of a vaccine and simply let their guard down.

My Takeaway: get the vaccine BUT keep practicing the protocols of washing your hands, wearing masks and social distancing. Now is not he time for complacency.

 

Joseph 

[idiebabe]

10 hours ago, geocruiser said:

idiebabe & Hlitner,

 

Thank you very much for your replies.  For me I feel that the restaurants workers are doing everything that they can to stay healthy and keep their customers safe.  They don't want to get sick either.  For me it is about the other customers.  Are they healthy and /or vaccinated?  Because they will be the ones taking their mask off.  One never knows if they are healthy. 

For me I am not ready to go out and eat yet.  Covid hit my family.  Three sick, one out of the three died.  

In time this will pass . Both my parent made it through the flu of 1918.  My dad was 10 years old my mom was 2 yrs old. So, this too shall pass.

I'm very sorry for your loss!  I understand and if you don't feel comfortable going out, you need to do what you feel is best for you!

 

Stay Safe!  😀

[geocruiser]

11 minutes ago, idiebabe said:

I'm very sorry for your loss!  I understand and if you don't feel comfortable going out, you need to do what you feel is best for you!

 

Stay Safe!  😀

Thank you.  He got it from a small wedding.  Four people there got sick with it.  

[Cruising Is Bliss]

On 4/5/2021 at 1:10 PM, Heartgrove said:

The vaccines are 90-95% effective as that means that you would still have a 5-10% chance of contracting the virus.

 

 

That's a very common misconception.

95 % protection does not mean you have a 5% chance of getting the virus.

It's much less than that. 

The risk to a vaccinated person is 5 % of risk to an unvaccinated person in the same conditions.

The risk is up to 5 % only when the exposure is big enough under circumstances where EVERY unvaccinated person would get infected.

 

 

[Heartgrove]

1 hour ago, Cruising Is Bliss said:

 

That's a very common misconception.

95 % protection does not mean you have a 5% chance of getting the virus.

It's much less than that. 

The risk to a vaccinated person is 5 % of risk to an unvaccinated person in the same conditions.

The risk is up to 5 % only when the exposure is big enough under circumstances where EVERY unvaccinated person would get infected.

 

 

 

Thank you. I stand corrected. 

[Himself]

I understand Seabourn has said all pax and crew must be vaccinated with so called vaccine.  HAL is opening up July1st.  I suspect vaccinations will be required.  That will end my cruising days.   The trials will not be over until 2022 or 23.  I will NOT get the vaccine until the trials are over.   And perhaps not then.

[HappyInVan]

7 hours ago, Cruising Is Bliss said:

The risk is up to 5 % only when the exposure is big enough under circumstances where EVERY unvaccinated person would get infected.

 

 

Let me add a few comments.

 

Our knowledge of efficacy is based on statistical analysis of vaccine trials done in the past.

 

For example, efficacy is said to be 95% for the Pfizer vaccine, for symptomatic confirmed cases. That is, 95 out of a hundred cases were not vaccinated. The remaining 5 were vaccinated.

 

No vaccine can be 100% effective. 95% is very very good. On that basis, vaccines are being allowed for EUA use. That does not mean everyone will be 95% protected. Nor that the average person will be 95% protected.

 

There's a multiple of factors that affect each person's risk. Going forward, the most controllable factor is your risk behavior. See post 66 for a real world report.

 

For those who continue to follow safety guidelines after vaccination, you could reduce your risk by 99%. That's why Public Health is advising vax people to continue to follow safety guidelines in places where community spread is present.

 

In contrast, those exposing themselves to high viral load could be infected despite being vax. The high viral ingestion could overcome your body's enhanced protection

 

Eventually, with enough time and data, we could make quantitative assessments of risk factors. Those with combinations of risk factors have an X greater risk of being infected or dying. That is why the vaccines are still EUA. Only with a proper understanding of the best use and contra-use, can the doctors recommend the best vaccine for you.

 

The Pfizer trial is subject to reporting bias. The participants were expected to report themselves for testing, if they had suspicions. The problem is that participants know that they are subject to at least 14 days quarantine and multiple tests, if confirmed.

 

The natural human response is to wait if they develop symptoms, Could it be just the COMMON COLD! Therefore, the number of minor cases will likely be under-reported.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by HappyInVan

[OmarOak]

On 4/12/2021 at 11:36 AM, idiebabe said:

This was in response  to NY (and some other "Blue" States and reports of the same from the WH until Jen Psaka stated they were not in favor of Vaccine Passports) why DeSantis, Texas, and others came out and opposed the Vaccine Passports. If NY didn't start this, it wouldn't even be an issue but, IMO, I'm glad there was push back.  

 

We do not want either a "Red" or a "Blue" State telling us who we can or cannot allow into my Restaurant and agree it should be left up to the Private Businesses.  Unlike the majority who are opining on the subject I actually have a Seat at this Table!  I would rather the "Red" States decision not to allow proof of Vaccination be shown in order to enter a Restaurant than what NY is doing.  

 

We have been open throughout this entire Pandemic (except for two months closed for Indoor Dining).  Although we are located on the South End of a Tourist Town our Business is 95% Local.  This past year our loyal Customers supported us and if some choose not to Vaccinate,  they are not going to be turned away now because there is a Vaccine nor will the two Employees we have who have been on the fence about getting it be fired.  None of our Staff has had Covid...Zero Cases.  Our Indoor Dining has been very steady since reopening last May and since more and more are being Vaccinated we have been slammed for Indoor Dining.  Our To Go/Pick Ups and Deliveries have always been busy and Weekends and some other nights we are on 2 hours for Delivery and 1 1/2 hours for Pick Ups and actually have had to stop taking Orders due to the volume we still had to fill.  In addition, we have the Doordash Apps, etc.  

 

We follow our DHEC Guidelines and implemented our own enhanced Sanitation procedures.  We installed Plexiglass at our Counter and everyone has worn a Mask (and continues to do so even with our Mandate being lifted).  98% of our Staff is now Vaccinated with either 1st Dose or 2nd Dose.

 

If someone doesn't want to come in because we don't require Proof of Vaccination, then by all means go somewhere else.  That's your choice but we will not exclude some of our  Loyal Customers who supported us throughout this Pandemic (pre-Vaccine) because they choose not to get it. 

I too "have a seat at this table'.

 

It sounds like we have very different sorts of establishments, customers and State governments. I served on our Governor's Hospitality Industry Advisory Council and am happy to say that our relatively strict policies placed us among the lowest States for per capita incidence of Covid.

 

We work in close quarters and all of our employees will be fully vaccinated before we reopen for indoor service. No exceptions. We will require indoor guests to prove vaccination. No exceptions.

 

We recently made reservations available for our May reopening and booked out six weeks ahead within hours so our customer base appears fine with our policy. We had a few long time customers balk; that's their choice.

 

Personally, I will not eat indoors unless all concerned are vaccinated.

 

HAL will have a business decision to make. Many among us will not consider a cruise unless all are vaccinated. Others won't get vaccinated. International Airlines like Quantas are already requiring proof of vaccination to board a flight.  As a matter of economics, I hope HAL will do the same.

 

 

 

 

[D C]

22 hours ago, Cruising Is Bliss said:

 

That's a very common misconception.

95 % protection does not mean you have a 5% chance of getting the virus.

It's much less than that. 

The risk to a vaccinated person is 5 % of risk to an unvaccinated person in the same conditions.

The risk is up to 5 % only when the exposure is big enough under circumstances where EVERY unvaccinated person would get infected.

 

 

Thanks.  So few people realise what the figures mean and the media has been horrible at explaining (guessing they don't understand at all).  

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, D C said:

Thanks.  So few people realise what the figures mean and the media has been horrible at explaining (guessing they don't understand at all).  

Maybe they don't understand, or maybe they don't think their viewer or listener has the patience to listen to explanations.