Florida sues to reopen cruise ports

[harkinmr]

8 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

How is it cowardice?  CDC implemented the CSO, so now they need to lay it all out for what they expect the cruise lines to do.  Not just supply some general guidelines.  I wholeheartedly agree that all cruisers and crew members need to be vaccinated.  The CDC needs to say this and not expect the cruise lines to do so.  Even though I suspect the lines do want it, they just want it to come from the CDC.

 

The most recent update of the CSO was on April 2 for the "Technical Instructions for Mitigation of COVID-19 Among Cruise Ship Crew", they're "new phase",  And this is what it says:

 

Added the Routine COVID-19 Laboratory Screening Testing of All Crew Section, the Procedures for Embarking Contractors Overnight and Visitors Overnight Section, and the Procedures for Embarking Day Contractors and Day Visitors Section. Clarified laboratory parameters and testing options. Updated surveillance reporting requirement to daily, revised the color-coding system, and COVID-19-like illness definition.

 

That's it.  The most recent change prior to that?  September 17th (though they gave a "Summary of Past Changes" on Feb. 18th) for "Interim Guidance".

 

The CSO, for the most part, has remained as is since it was put in place.  And this is the reason for the frustration on MY part.  Despite all the PR media moments, I just don't see that the CDC is doing much of anything, especially in giving any guidance.

 

 

 

It’s cowardice because the cruise lines want the CDC to make the decision for them for US cruising.  They didn’t seem to have too much trouble making it for their North America, Med and U.K. cruises.  What’s the big deal?  I suspect the big deal is they don’t want to deal with the blowback.  It’s absurd. And it’s cowardly. 
 

It is NOT the CDC’s job to mandate vaccines to start. They can’t do that because it’s currently under an EUA and because the federal government has already said: no mandated vaccines.   If the cruise lines think vaccines will make it easier to sail then mandate them. Otherwise just provide your proposal about how you will do it without them.

 

You obviously didn’t read beyond the Summary of Recent Changes from the April 2nd update. The Technical Instructions are quite detailed.  I have no idea where you are getting September 17th from. The CSO framework wasn’t even put into place until October 30th.  Prior to that date there was just the No Sail Order. 
https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/management/technical-instructions-for-cruise-ships.html

The CDC has given further guidance and the two sides are now talking. I choose  to trust that and be optimistic. You obviously don’t and want to wallow in frustration. Your choice.  

 

[jagoffee]

25 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

It’s cowardice because the cruise lines want the CDC to make the decision for them for US cruising.  They didn’t seem to have too much trouble making it for their North America, Med and U.K. cruises.  What’s the big deal?  I suspect the big deal is they don’t want to deal with the blowback.  It’s absurd. And it’s cowardly. 
 

It is NOT the CDC’s job to mandate vaccines to start. They can’t do that because it’s currently under an EUA and because the federal government has already said: no mandated vaccines.   If the cruise lines think vaccines will make it easier to sail then mandate them. Otherwise just provide your proposal about how you will do it without them.

 

You obviously didn’t read beyond the Summary of Recent Changes from the April 2nd update. The Technical Instructions are quite detailed.  I have no idea where you are getting September 17th from. The CSO framework wasn’t even put into place until October 30th.  Prior to that date there was just the No Sail Order. 
https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/management/technical-instructions-for-cruise-ships.html

The CDC has given further guidance and the two sides are now talking. I choose  to trust that and be optimistic. You obviously don’t and want to wallow in frustration. Your choice.  

 

It is not the CDC jobs to require vaccines if that if they believe it is necessary?  Or make a recommendation that a vaccination be required?  Or the responsibility the Federal government to set up a system to confirm a person has been vaccinated if it is going to be required or recommendation?  Expect each individual cruise lines/ship to issue a detailed plan instead?  Just seems like more bureaucratic B.S. to me. Federal government at it’s worse IMO.

 

[LGW59]

9 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

It is not the CDC jobs to require vaccines if that if they believe it is necessary?  Or make a recommendation that a vaccination be required?  Or the responsibility the Federal government to set up a system to confirm a person has been vaccinated if it is going to be required or recommendation?  Expect each individual cruise lines/ship to issue a detailed plan instead?  Just seems like more bureaucratic B.S. to me. Federal government at it’s worse IMO.

 

this does not compute!?

[markeb]

10 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

It is not the CDC jobs to require vaccines if that if they believe it is necessary?  Or make a recommendation that a vaccination be required?  Or the responsibility the Federal government to set up a system to confirm a person has been vaccinated if it is going to be required or recommendation?  Expect each individual cruise lines/ship to issue a detailed plan instead?  Just seems like more bureaucratic B.S. to me. Federal government at it’s worse IMO.

 

Name a vaccine the federal government requires. Any vaccine. 
 

I’m here all week...

[harkinmr]

4 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

It is not the CDC jobs to require vaccines if that if they believe it is necessary?  Or make a recommendation that a vaccination be required?  Or the responsibility the Federal government to set up a system to confirm a person has been vaccinated if it is going to be required or recommendation?  Expect each individual cruise lines/ship to issue a detailed plan instead?  Just seems like more bureaucratic B.S. to me. Federal government at it’s worse IMO.

 

The CDC cannot mandate them because the vaccine is under EUA only. And no, it is not up to them to require it.  The CDC can surely say that it would be the best way to get approval to sail.  Hopefully the cruise lines are smart enough to see that.
 

The federal government has chosen not to keep a vaccine database.  It is up to the states to do that if they wish.  

 

And yes, each cruise line needs to come up with a detailed plan.  For someone who talks about bureaucratic BS, you sure seem to want the federal government to get into everybody’s business on vaccines, databases and mandates.  Very odd.

[harkinmr]

8 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

this does not compute!?

Hey I got it. But then I have a gibberish translator on my iPad. 😜

[jagoffee]

1 hour ago, LGW59 said:

this does not compute!?

 

55 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The CDC cannot mandate them because the vaccine is under EUA only. And no, it is not up to them to require it.  The CDC can surely say that it would be the best way to get approval to sail.  Hopefully the cruise lines are smart enough to see that.
 

The federal government has chosen not to keep a vaccine database.  It is up to the states to do that if they wish.  

 

And yes, each cruise line needs to come up with a detailed plan.  For someone who talks about bureaucratic BS, you sure seem to want the federal government to get into everybody’s business on vaccines, databases and mandates.  Very odd.

 

51 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Hey I got it. But then I have a gibberish translator on my iPad. 😜

Sorry for my poorly written response.  

I did not mean to suggest that the government needed to create a data base nor require vaccines to cruise.  But I was trying to say that if that is want the CDC wishes to require or recommend that they should just say it.  If they cannot require a vaccine because it is under an EUA, then they should not try to “back door” a requirement.  IMO that is dishonest and it is why I consider it bureaucratic B.S.and The Federal government at it’s worse. 

 

Thousands of people will be cruising around the world and passing a Covid test before leaving the ship.  This will happen many months before the CDC’s No Sail Order is set to expire on November 1.  I seriously doubt that  the CDC can stop it.  So what is really gained?  The bottom line is the same, people will cruise and return home to the US.  

[Oceangoer2]

15 hours ago, LGW59 said:

ipeeinthepool graciously offered that I buy you and AI beverage on our next cruise.  See you at the bar where we will all be joined by TrulyBlonde and Oceangoer2.  Cheers!!   

Should be a VERY interesting conversation....do they have bouncers in the Martini Bar?

[Oceangoer2]

15 hours ago, TrulyBlonde said:

and of course TB gets two drinks. They always think that the blonde is easy 😉

Just sayin'......ALL blondes are not easy...and if so, would they need 2 drinks...? 🙄

[TrulyBlonde]

54 minutes ago, Oceangoer2 said:

Just sayin'......ALL blondes are not easy...and if so, would they need 2 drinks...? 🙄

Just sayin'  Learn to get a sense of humor. @LGW59 as I have a special bond.  We can tease each other.

[K.T.B.]

IMO, if the CDC has the power to enforce the CSO, they have the power to create the rules that will allow for the opening of cruising from the US.  They can't have one without the other.  They can't say one one hand, "we can stop cruise ships," and then say on the other, "oh, we can't make recommendations to get them moving again."  However, they have made some rules (i.e. ventilation requirements, which the lines have done), they've just stopped short of suggesting that everyone be vaccinated.

 

And let me point this out.  The following is what the CDC says we can do once we're fully vaccinated (LINK) :

 

• Visit inside a home or private setting without a mask with other fully vaccinated people of any age
• Visit inside a home or private setting without a mask with one household of unvaccinated people who are not at risk for severe illness
• Travel domestically without a pre- or post-travel test
• Travel domestically without quarantining after travel
• Travel internationally without a pre-travel test depending on destination
• Travel internationally without quarantining after travel

They recognize that, once people are fully vaccinated, we can travel safely, domestically and internationally.  So the continued shut down of the cruise industry in the US flies in the face of what we can do based on what they, themselves, say....

 

I know one thing, I can certainly use one of those drinks being offered around here.

[LGW59]

5 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

IMO, if the CDC has the power to enforce the CSO, they have the power to create the rules that will allow for the opening of cruising from the US.  They can't have one without the other.  They can't say one one hand, "we can stop cruise ships," and then say on the other, "oh, we can't make recommendations to get them moving again."  However, they have made some rules (i.e. ventilation requirements, which the lines have done), they've just stopped short of suggesting that everyone be vaccinated.

 

And let me point this out.  The following is what the CDC says we can do once we're fully vaccinated (LINK) :

 

• Visit inside a home or private setting without a mask with other fully vaccinated people of any age
• Visit inside a home or private setting without a mask with one household of unvaccinated people who are not at risk for severe illness
• Travel domestically without a pre- or post-travel test
• Travel domestically without quarantining after travel
• Travel internationally without a pre-travel test depending on destination
• Travel internationally without quarantining after travel

They recognize that, once people are fully vaccinated, we can travel safely, domestically and internationally.  So the continued shut down of the cruise industry in the US flies in the face of what we can do based on what they, themselves, say....

 

I know one thing, I can certainly use one of those drinks being offered around here.

You are in K.T.B.  See you at the bar!

 

[LGW59]

8 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

You are in K.T.B.  See you at the bar!

 

When you get there, just look for the old(er) very handsome man with a salt n pepper beard, I'll be sitting with the lovely blonde woman!

[K.T.B.]

5 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

When you get there, just look for the old(er) very handsome man with a salt n pepper beard, I'll be sitting with the lovely blonde woman!

 

I'll be sitting next to a blonde woman??  Please don't tell my redheaded wife....

[TrulyBlonde]

14 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

When you get there, just look for the old(er) very handsome man with a salt n pepper beard, I'll be sitting with the lovely blonde woman!

Yes, the elegant blonde who will have a smile on her face while sipping her wine slowly, so she and have a refill. You can't miss us.

[Jeremiah1212]

9 hours ago, jagoffee said:

It is not the CDC jobs to require vaccines if that if they believe it is necessary?  Or make a recommendation that a vaccination be required?  Or the responsibility the Federal government to set up a system to confirm a person has been vaccinated if it is going to be required or recommendation?  Expect each individual cruise lines/ship to issue a detailed plan instead?  Just seems like more bureaucratic B.S. to me. Federal government at it’s worse IMO.

 

 

In all reality, the CSO Phase 2a docs do make a very strong suggestion that vaccinations are incorporated into their plans. The CSO issued the CDC's thoughts as Framework and Guidance. So it was never their intent to issue detailed line item requirements for each cruise line. It was up to the cruise lines to take the concepts the CDC noted and incorporate those into their plan. They were given the flexibility to operationalize many aspects as they saw fit. 

 

[Oceangoer2]

1 hour ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Just sayin'  Learn to get a sense of humor. @LGW59 as I have a special bond.  We can tease each other.

Ooops...I WAS KIDDING....why would you think otherwise?  I'm blond so guess I'm poking fun at myself.  Photos never lie.  Sorry If I offended.  BTW....the line is growing at the bar....if I'm not persona non grata.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Oceangoer2

[jagoffee]

1 hour ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

 

In all reality, the CSO Phase 2a docs do make a very strong suggestion that vaccinations are incorporated into their plans. The CSO issued the CDC's thoughts as Framework and Guidance. So it was never their intent to issue detailed line item requirements for each cruise line. It was up to the cruise lines to take the concepts the CDC noted and incorporate those into their plan. They were given the flexibility to operationalize many aspects as they saw fit. 

 

If by law the CDC is not allowed to make this vaccine mandatory (stated on this thread many times), then they should not imply that they will not approve a plan without it being mandatory.  It does not seem honest to me.  Just a sneaky way to get around the law/regulation.  
 

I thought the No Sail Order requires a plan for each individual cruise ship not just the cruise line.  The plan also indicates many assumptions that are no longer necessarily valid.  The availability of vaccines being one example.

Edited April 26, 2021 by jagoffee

[TrulyBlonde]

47 minutes ago, Oceangoer2 said:

Ooops...I WAS KIDDING....why would you think otherwise?  I'm blond so guess I'm poking fun at myself.  Photos never lie.  Sorry If I offended.  BTW....the line is growing at the bar....if I'm not persona non grata.

I put up my pic too. We are both TrulyBlonde. Sorry if I was mistaken as I like to poke fun at myself too. See you at the bar 🙂.  P.S If the Captain has a problem, I know how to drive a boat LOL!

[LGW59]

52 minutes ago, Oceangoer2 said:

Ooops...I WAS KIDDING....why would you think otherwise?  I'm blond so guess I'm poking fun at myself.  Photos never lie.  Sorry If I offended.  BTW....the line is growing at the bar....if I'm not persona non grata.

We are going to need a much larger table!

[Oceangoer2]

Just now, TrulyBlonde said:

I put up my pic too. We are both TrulyBlonde. Sorry if I was mistaken as I like to poke fun at myself too. See you at the bar 🙂.  P.S If the Captain has a problem, I know how to drive a boat LOL!

I saw the new avatar.....First thing I noticed...the boat!  Uncle had a lovely flying bridge in Ft Lauderdale some years ago. 2nd thing your long hair.....not since a teen, and in business it just seemed more manageable to keep shorter.  haha...re captain....let me know when you're at the helm.  😁

[Oceangoer2]

6 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

We are going to need a much larger table!

We are having too much fun lately on this thread....DH wants to be included...he drinks beer, draft preferred......allowed to step back from sophisticated cocktails, glamorous martinis, and fine wines?

Edited April 26, 2021 by Oceangoer2

[harkinmr]

41 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

If by law the CDC is not allowed to make this vaccine mandatory (stated on this thread many times), then they should not imply that they will not approve a plan without it being mandatory.  It does not seem honest to me.  Just a sneaky way to get around the law/regulation.  
 

I thought the No Sail Order requires a plan for each individual cruise ship not just the cruise line.  The plan also indicates many assumptions that are no longer necessarily valid.  The availability of vaccines being one example.

So you want the CDC to mandate vaccines, which they can’t do, and then think it’s “sneaky” to encourage the cruise lines to require them as an easier method for securing approval?  It’s not dishonest. It’s about negotiation. Happens all the time. 
So how do you propose that we get to vaccinated sailings?  Or are you against them?

 

The CSO (not a No Sail Order) does require that each line submit a plan for restart in accord with the framework.  What assumptions under the CSO are you saying are no longer valid?  Vaccines have been recognized as a prospective component of the CSO as per the CDC’s statement on the 12th. 

[K.T.B.]

27 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

So you want the CDC to mandate vaccines, which they can’t do, and then think it’s “sneaky” to encourage the cruise lines to require them as an easier method for securing approval?  It’s not dishonest. It’s about negotiation. Happens all the time. 
So how do you propose that we get to vaccinated sailings?  Or are you against them?

 

The CSO (not a No Sail Order) does require that each line submit a plan for restart in accord with the framework.  What assumptions under the CSO are you saying are no longer valid?  Vaccines have been recognized as a prospective component of the CSO as per the CDC’s statement on the 12th. 

 

Ok, so they can't mandate vaccines?

 

Here's the CDC's second phase:

 

• Increasing from weekly to daily the reporting frequency of COVID-19 cases and illnesses.
• Implementing routine testing of all crew based on each ship’s color status.
• Updating the color-coding system used to classify ships’ status with respect to COVID-19.
• Decreasing the time needed for a “red” ship to become “green” from 28 to 14 days based on the availability of onboard testing, routine screening testing protocols, and daily reporting.
• Creating planning materials for agreements that port authorities and local health authorities must approve to ensure cruise lines have the necessary infrastructure in place to manage an outbreak of COVID-19 on their ships to include healthcare capacity and housing to isolate infected people and quarantine those who are exposed.
• Establishing a plan and timeline for vaccination of crew and port personnel.

That last line is important.  If the CDC can't mandate vaccines, why do they require a plan and timeline for the crew and port personnel to be vaccinated?  Sounds like they're mandating to me.

[harkinmr]

4 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Ok, so they can't mandate vaccines?

 

Here's the CDC's second phase:

 

• Increasing from weekly to daily the reporting frequency of COVID-19 cases and illnesses.
• Implementing routine testing of all crew based on each ship’s color status.
• Updating the color-coding system used to classify ships’ status with respect to COVID-19.
• Decreasing the time needed for a “red” ship to become “green” from 28 to 14 days based on the availability of onboard testing, routine screening testing protocols, and daily reporting.
• Creating planning materials for agreements that port authorities and local health authorities must approve to ensure cruise lines have the necessary infrastructure in place to manage an outbreak of COVID-19 on their ships to include healthcare capacity and housing to isolate infected people and quarantine those who are exposed.
• Establishing a plan and timeline for vaccination of crew and port personnel.

That last line is important.  If the CDC can't mandate vaccines, why do they require a plan and timeline for the crew and port personnel to be vaccinated?  Sounds like they're mandating to me.

Because the CDC recommended that all crew be vaccinated when they become eligible. Not a mandate but an element that will assist in the restart.  Nothing to do with mandating vaccines for cruise passengers.  
 

I’m glad to see you actually went back to read the technical instructions.