Florida sues to reopen cruise ports

[TrulyBlonde]

2 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

ipeeinthepool graciously offered that I buy you and AI beverage on our next cruise.  See you at the bar where we will all be joined by TrulyBlonde and Oceangoer2.  Cheers!!   

and of course TB gets two drinks. They always think that the blonde is easy 😉

[harkinmr]

20 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Not really.  I am pointing out that whether we travel is more political than science based.  The politicians hold the keys to the car.

The airlines are absolutely essential to keeping commerce going in this country.  Their overall economic impact is enormous both in terms of direct and indirect economic consequences.  They obviously did buck at the prospect of testing for domestic travel simply because of the enormity of the task.  A decision was made not to pursue domestic airline testing based on economics.  International airline testing is being done.  

 

You are trying to argue that politics is the primary impetus behind the halt in cruising from the US.  If so, those politics have been around for the last 13 months.  Why now all the hue and cry?  If politicians really hold all the keys, then why didn't they do something until now to stop the shutdown.

 

You have not acknowledged that the CDC and the lines are now working together to get cruising started.  Why not?  Is it because it spoils the story line?

Edited April 25, 2021 by harkinmr

[NMTraveller]

17 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The airlines are absolutely essential to keeping commerce going in this country.  Their overall economic impact is enormous both in terms of direct and indirect economic consequences.  They obviously did buck at the prospect of testing for domestic travel simply because of the enormity of the task.  A decision was made not to pursue domestic airline testing based on economics.  International airline testing is being done.  

 

You are trying to argue that politics is the primary impetus behind the halt in cruising from the US.  If so, those politics have been around for the last 13 months.  Why now all the hue and cry?  If politicians really hold all the keys, then why didn't they do something until now to stop the shutdown.

 

You have not acknowledged that the CDC and the lines are now working together to get cruising started.  Why not?  Is it because it spoils the story line?

I am arguing that politics were the reason behind Covid testing not being required on interstate airline flights and politics will be what brings cruises back.

Edited April 25, 2021 by NMTraveller

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, NMTraveller said:

I am arguing that politics were the reason behind Covid testing not being required on airline flights and politics will be what brings cruises back.

Ok.  My head is spinning at this point.  You are saying that politics is what is keeping cruising shut down, but at the same time it is politics that will bring cruising back??

[K.T.B.]

15 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The airlines are absolutely essential to keeping commerce going in this country.  Their overall economic impact is enormous both in terms of direct and indirect economic consequences.  They obviously did buck at the prospect of testing for domestic travel simply because of the enormity of the task.  A decision was made not to pursue domestic airline testing based on economics.  International airline testing is being done.  

 

You are trying to argue that politics is the primary impetus behind the halt in cruising from the US.  If so, those politics have been around for the last 13 months.  Why now all the hue and cry?  If politicians really hold all the keys, then why didn't they do something until now to stop the shutdown.

 

You have not acknowledged that the CDC and the lines are now working together to get cruising started.  Why not?  Is it because it spoils the story line?

 

And just HOW are they "working together"?  I've seen a few articles about cruise lines (i.e. NCL) offering proposals, but there's stone cold silence form the CDC.  Even a rejection would be "working together", but there's not even that.

 

There's no "working together" going on here.  It's the CDC refusing to even consider listening to any proposal.  They're quite happy with the CSO because they don't have to really do anything about it until it gets closer to November 1st.  Now if there is something I have missed, PLEASE show me.  I would love to be proven wrong, because that means the CDC genuinely wants to get thousands of people back to work and a few states' economies up and running again.

[harkinmr]

Just now, K.T.B. said:

 

And just HOW are they "working together"?  I've seen a few articles about cruise lines (i.e. NCL) offering proposals, but there's stone cold silence form the CDC.  Even a rejection would be "working together", but there's not even that.

 

There's no "working together" going on here.  It's the CDC refusing to even consider listening to any proposal.  They're quite happy with the CSO because they don't have to really do anything about it until it gets closer to November 1st.  Now if there is something I have missed, PLEASE show me.  I would love to be proven wrong, because that means the CDC genuinely wants to get thousands of people back to work and a few states' economies up and running again.

Ok.  Here you go from the "proving you wrong" department:

 

CDC Statement on Cruise Meeting: The CDC issued the following statement to Cruise Week this morning: "Experts from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and White House staff met with cruise industry leaders and executives to discuss the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) on Monday, April 12, 2021. Cruise industry leaders were able to provide input into the phases of the CSO, expressed frustration with the requirements, discussed the incorporation of vaccination requirements into restarting passenger voyages, and expressed the need to establish a working group with industry and CDC to work forward to resume cruising as soon as possible. Cruising will always pose some risk of COVID-19 transmission, and COVID-19 vaccines will play a critical role in the safe resumption of passenger operations. Cruise travelers represent a global population, and as more people are fully vaccinated worldwide, the phased approach of the CSO also allows CDC to incorporate these advancements into planning for the safe resumption of cruise ship travel. CDC is committed to working with the cruise industry and seaport partners to resume cruising following a phased approach required by the CSO. CDC and DHS senior leadership will begin meetings with cruise industry leaders starting this week. The objective of the meetings are to mutually review the top priority issues of the cruise industry to work out implementation details of the CSO, including the impact of vaccines and other scientific developments since the CSO was issued in October 2020. This goal aligns with the desire for the resumption of passenger operations in the United States by mid-summer, expressed by many major cruise ship operators and travelers."

 

 

[dreaminofcruisin]

It sounds like MSC is working with the CDC:

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/ports-destinations/msc-cruises-next-homeport-bahamas-line-says-not-so-fast

 

'In this region, our priority remains a restart out of US ports, and we are actively engaged with the CDC and relevant authorities to determine the best way forward. We are hopeful that the decision to allow the resumption of cruising from the US will happen very soon, and it would be premature to speculate on any homeport decisions.'

[K.T.B.]

12 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

 CDC is committed to working with the cruise industry and seaport partners to resume cruising following a phased approach required by the CSO. CDC and DHS senior leadership will begin meetings with cruise industry leaders starting this week.

 

 

Pardon me while I laugh at that.  Again, there's been no "working together" here.  That was commented on April 12th, nothing happened this past week.  The proposal that NCL put together was ignored.  So if they're so committed, they need to, you know, at least RESPOND.

 

I'm extremely down on the CDC right now for a variety or reasons, none of which are political.  Dr. Walensky just doesn't seem up to the job.  Hell, she couldn't even answer a simple question last week of whether people should still wear masks outside or not.  (Many doctors said, "no need if there's there's social distancing.")  And we're all supposed to trust her judgment as to when we can all start traveling again?

 

Whether it's accurate or not, it certainly feels that the CDC is operating on information gathered a year ago with no updates whatsoever, while ignoring the fact that people are getting vaccinated.

 

I cannot wait until the cruises out of St Maarten all sail with no issues at all.  Thereby proving the plan put in place by Celebrity for those cruises works.

 

But thank you for posting that.  Even though I find it laughable, at least the CDC's PR dept. is getting their job done....

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Pardon me while I laugh at that.  Again, there's been no "working together" here.  That was commented on April 12th, nothing happened this past week.  The proposal that NCL put together was ignored.  So if they're so committed, they need to, you know, at least RESPOND.

 

 

 

Now, it's my turn to laugh.  I show you evidence that they have started to work together, and then you say: "yea, so what!" "means nothing!".  How in the world do you know what has or has not occurred with the working group?  The proposal that NCL put out has not been ignored.  The NCL proposal asked that the CSO be terminated.  That proposal received a resounding "no thanks" when the CDC reaffirmed that the CSO is not going anywhere.  Then Del Rio sends out an email acting like he didn't get a response when he was at the meeting on the 12th.  That's pathetic.

 

The cruise lines have been painfully silent in commenting on the meeting (other than Richard Fain).  The others have been silent because it does not serve their purpose.  They want the CSO gone.  Not happening.  So they continue to whine and complain.  

[nocl]

46 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

And just HOW are they "working together"?  I've seen a few articles about cruise lines (i.e. NCL) offering proposals, but there's stone cold silence form the CDC.  Even a rejection would be "working together", but there's not even that.

 

There's no "working together" going on here.  It's the CDC refusing to even consider listening to any proposal.  They're quite happy with the CSO because they don't have to really do anything about it until it gets closer to November 1st.  Now if there is something I have missed, PLEASE show me.  I would love to be proven wrong, because that means the CDC genuinely wants to get thousands of people back to work and a few states' economies up and running again.

The problem is that the cruise lines have not submitted "plans and proposals".  What they have submitted are letters, the report from the safe sail panel, and requests for the CSO to be dropped.

NCL's "proposal" was a letter saying that they would require vaccinations, along with a copy of the safe sail report.  Their requested action was to be dropped from the CSO.  Two weeks after the initial letter they submitted a follow up letter at the same time there was the Washington.  At which time the CDC submitted a response that someone posted here on CC.  Basically along the lines of you participated in the White House meeting and know that discussions will be occurring.

 

It is very clear what the cruise lines need to do.  It is 1. put agreements with the ports into place  2. Submit their plan for test cruises.  They have done neither.  Instead their actions have been aimed at trying to get totally out of CDC oversight 

 

 

 

The cruise lines are now scheduled to meet at the technical level with the CDC to discuss their top concerns.  Hopefully these meetings will convince the cruise lines that they need to actually cooperate with the CDC, put their agreements in place and submit their actual protocol proposals for the test cruises to be monitored by the CDC. Just as they did after weeks of stalling when they cooperated to allow crew movements through the US.

 

 

[harkinmr]

40 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

I cannot wait until the cruises out of St Maarten all sail with no issues at all.  Thereby proving the plan put in place by Celebrity for those cruises works.

 

 

Let's not put the cart before the horse.  Best hope so, because if they go sideways it will be a further delay in a cruising restart from the US.

[nocl]

51 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Pardon me while I laugh at that.  Again, there's been no "working together" here.  That was commented on April 12th, nothing happened this past week.  The proposal that NCL put together was ignored.  So if they're so committed, they need to, you know, at least RESPOND.

 

I'm extremely down on the CDC right now for a variety or reasons, none of which are political.  Dr. Walensky just doesn't seem up to the job.  Hell, she couldn't even answer a simple question last week of whether people should still wear masks outside or not.  (Many doctors said, "no need if there's there's social distancing.")  And we're all supposed to trust her judgment as to when we can all start traveling again?

 

Whether it's accurate or not, it certainly feels that the CDC is operating on information gathered a year ago with no updates whatsoever, while ignoring the fact that people are getting vaccinated.

 

I cannot wait until the cruises out of St Maarten all sail with no issues at all.  Thereby proving the plan put in place by Celebrity for those cruises works.

 

But thank you for posting that.  Even though I find it laughable, at least the CDC's PR dept. is getting their job done....

Actually the cruises out of St Maartin will not impact the CDC's opinion at all after all no information from those cruises will be reported to the CDC.  There are no requirements for the cruise line to tell anyone if any infections occur on board beyond the passengers that  test positive.  So if they have cases any reports would need to come from those that tested positive themselves.  I doubt the cruise lines would release that info themselves.  As such the only way that one would hear anything is if they were to go really really bad.

 

There have been cases on some of the European cruises, but other than the first couple of cases early in the restart they have really not been reported, except for the occasional reports from someone actually involved (such as quarantined by the cruise line as one person reported on CC).

[cl.klink]

Rancor, rancor, rancor

 

- Joel

[harkinmr]

28 minutes ago, cl.klink said:

Rancor, rancor, rancor

 

- Joel

Yes, the bitterness and resentment towards the CDC is just overwhelming in some of these posts.  What a shame.

[grandgeezer]

3 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Pardon me while I laugh at that.  Again, there's been no "working together" here.  That was commented on April 12th, nothing happened this past week.  The proposal that NCL put together was ignored.  So if they're so committed, they need to, you know, at least RESPOND.

 

I'm extremely down on the CDC right now for a variety or reasons, none of which are political.  Dr. Walensky just doesn't seem up to the job.  Hell, she couldn't even answer a simple question last week of whether people should still wear masks outside or not.  (Many doctors said, "no need if there's there's social distancing.")  And we're all supposed to trust her judgment as to when we can all start traveling again?

 

Whether it's accurate or not, it certainly feels that the CDC is operating on information gathered a year ago with no updates whatsoever, while ignoring the fact that people are getting vaccinated.

 

I cannot wait until the cruises out of St Maarten all sail with no issues at all.  Thereby proving the plan put in place by Celebrity for those cruises works.

 

But thank you for posting that.  Even though I find it laughable, at least the CDC's PR dept. is getting their job done....

The only thing the cruises will prove is that maybe, under the most restricted protocols, they can sail safely. The problem is that the cruise lines can't survive under those conditions. Since they aren't dealing with the CDC they should cruise like they did before the pandemic, full ships, no restrictions, then they would prove something. Like it is, it's just fluff.

[K.T.B.]

19 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Yes, the bitterness and resentment towards the CDC is just overwhelming in some of these posts.  What a shame.

 

They're not offering solutions, they're just offering roadblocks.   The CDC got so entrenched in the politicalness of this disease that I cannot believe anything they propose now.  Again, when the director cannot answer a simple question about wearing a mask outside, how are we supposed to feel?

 

And now Europe is going to allow vaccinated Americans to visit:  LINK. That, to me, says a lot.  How will the CDC respond?  I expect doom & gloom.

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, K.T.B. said:

 

They're not offering solutions, they're just offering roadblocks.   The CDC got so entrenched in the politicalness of this disease that I cannot believe anything they propose now.  Again, when the director cannot answer a simple question about wearing a mask outside, how are we supposed to feel?

 

And now Europe is going to allow vaccinated Americans to visit:  LINK. That, to me, says a lot.  How will the CDC respond?  I expect doom & gloom.

"Politicalness of this disease"?  What ARE you talking about?  If anything, this disease was way more politicized prior to January 20th.  And yet, there was no cruising then either.  In fact, political interference in the Fall resulted in the CSO.  That certainly further complicated things. 

[Jeremiah1212]

4 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

And just HOW are they "working together"?  I've seen a few articles about cruise lines (i.e. NCL) offering proposals, but there's stone cold silence form the CDC.  Even a rejection would be "working together", but there's not even that.

 

There's no "working together" going on here.  It's the CDC refusing to even consider listening to any proposal.  They're quite happy with the CSO because they don't have to really do anything about it until it gets closer to November 1st.  Now if there is something I have missed, PLEASE show me.  I would love to be proven wrong, because that means the CDC genuinely wants to get thousands of people back to work and a few states' economies up and running again.

Richard Fain released this last week. Lately his videos seem to have taken a more genuine and realistic tone rather than just some fluff. There’s definitely a bit of fluff in here, but I do believe there are at least constructive conversations taking place. However, he’s still beating around the bush on a vaccine requirement more than I would like. 
 

 

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

Richard Fain released this last week. Lately his videos seem to have taken a more genuine and realistic tone rather than just some fluff. There’s definitely a bit of fluff in here, but I do believe there are at least constructive conversations taking place. However, he’s still beating around the bush on a vaccine requirement more than I would like. 
 

 

Yes, he is the only cruise CEO to post any recognition of the renewed conversations.  He struck the right tone about an ongoing working relationship.  It really is frustrating though that he continues to be so wishy-washy on mandating vaccines for US cruising.  What is the big deal?  RCG is doing it for the Bahamas, Bermuda and St. Martin.  Those cruises are likely to be populated by mostly Americans.  Are they really so concerned about upsetting US cruisers?

[Jeremiah1212]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Yes, he is the only cruise CEO to post any recognition of the renewed conversations.  He struck the right tone about an ongoing working relationship.  It really is frustrating though that he continues to be so wishy-washy on mandating vaccines for US cruising.  What is the big deal?  RCG is doing it for the Bahamas, Bermuda and St. Martin.  Those cruises are likely to be populated by mostly Americans.  Are they really so concerned about upsetting US cruisers?

That part is strange. I think there is some disagreement amongst the cruise lines and they need to come to a consensus. NCL has indicated they are okay with a requirement, Carnival has essentially said no way, RCG says vaccines are ‘very important’. We’ve all seen the posts with people needing to dramatically write off a line due to a vaccine requirement, but I cannot believe those types are represented in significant numbers. Make it a requirement and lets move on. 

[Oville]

4 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

That part is strange. I think there is some disagreement amongst the cruise lines and they need to come to a consensus. NCL has indicated they are okay with a requirement, Carnival has essentially said no way, RCG says vaccines are ‘very important’. We’ve all seen the posts with people needing to dramatically write off a line due to a vaccine requirement, but I cannot believe those types are represented in significant numbers. Make it a requirement and lets move on. 

It will be very interesting to see what the EU requires from US citizens for verification of vaccine now that they have announced they will open up to the US this summer.  Perhaps FL will follow in order to reopen cruising.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Oville

[harkinmr]

Just now, Jeremiah1212 said:

That part is strange. I think there is some disagreement amongst the cruise lines and they need to come to a consensus. NCL has indicated they are okay with a requirement, Carnival has essentially said no way, RCG says vaccines are ‘very important’. We’ve all seen the posts with people needing to dramatically write off a line due to a vaccine requirement, but I cannot believe those types are represented in significant numbers. Make it a requirement and lets move on. 

Agreed.  It is the way forward for cruising to start.  Fain and Arnold Donald appear to want the CDC to make the decision for them.  I think it's a bit of cowardice.  The CDC is not going to mandate vaccines to cruise, but they may otherwise "imply" it's necessary.  Arnold Donald talked about respecting "personal freedom and personal liberty".  So is that the approach Carnival is going to take when enforcing its other health protocols.  They all need to realize that the overwhelming majority of cruisers will be in favor of mandated vaccines and get on with it!

[D C]

1 hour ago, grandgeezer said:

The only thing the cruises will prove is that maybe, under the most restricted protocols, they can sail safely. The problem is that the cruise lines can't survive under those conditions. Since they aren't dealing with the CDC they should cruise like they did before the pandemic, full ships, no restrictions, then they would prove something. Like it is, it's just fluff.

I wonder what is the path to prove that a ship full of vaccinated people is a completely safe environment?

 

Extremely remote chance of infection after vaccination

Infinitesimally small chance of infection and death when vaccinated

That we know with absolute certainty right now.  The public knows it.  The CDC knows it, but won't admit that it applies to cruise ships.

 

Masks outside have been absolute fluff since day 1 with no transmission resulting from brief, casual contact.   Again, the CDC knows it, but won't admit what they know.

 

 

[NMTraveller]

 

 

Del Rio and his plan.

Edited April 26, 2021 by NMTraveller

[K.T.B.]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

Agreed.  It is the way forward for cruising to start.  Fain and Arnold Donald appear to want the CDC to make the decision for them.  I think it's a bit of cowardice.  The CDC is not going to mandate vaccines to cruise, but they may otherwise "imply" it's necessary.  Arnold Donald talked about respecting "personal freedom and personal liberty".  So is that the approach Carnival is going to take when enforcing its other health protocols.  They all need to realize that the overwhelming majority of cruisers will be in favor of mandated vaccines and get on with it!

 

How is it cowardice?  CDC implemented the CSO, so now they need to lay it all out for what they expect the cruise lines to do.  Not just supply some general guidelines.  I wholeheartedly agree that all cruisers and crew members need to be vaccinated.  The CDC needs to say this and not expect the cruise lines to do so.  Even though I suspect the lines do want it, they just want it to come from the CDC.

 

The most recent update of the CSO was on April 2 for the "Technical Instructions for Mitigation of COVID-19 Among Cruise Ship Crew", they're "new phase",  And this is what it says:

 

Added the Routine COVID-19 Laboratory Screening Testing of All Crew Section, the Procedures for Embarking Contractors Overnight and Visitors Overnight Section, and the Procedures for Embarking Day Contractors and Day Visitors Section. Clarified laboratory parameters and testing options. Updated surveillance reporting requirement to daily, revised the color-coding system, and COVID-19-like illness definition.

 

That's it.  The most recent change prior to that?  September 17th (though they gave a "Summary of Past Changes" on Feb. 18th) for "Interim Guidance".

 

The CSO, for the most part, has remained as is since it was put in place.  And this is the reason for the frustration on MY part.  Despite all the PR media moments, I just don't see that the CDC is doing much of anything, especially in giving any guidance.

 

And D C said it best (which I am highlighting):

 

54 minutes ago, D C said:

I wonder what is the path to prove that a ship full of vaccinated people is a completely safe environment?

 

Extremely remote chance of infection after vaccination

Infinitesimally small chance of infection and death when vaccinated

That we know with absolute certainty right now.  The public knows it.  The CDC knows it, but won't admit that it applies to cruise ships.

 

Masks outside have been absolute fluff since day 1 with no transmission resulting from brief, casual contact.   Again, the CDC knows it, but won't admit what they know.

 

 

 

Look, it's simple, the CDC is dropping the ball here.  They're like the parent who has punished their child, but now they're expecting the child to come up with what needs to be done with the rules of discipline, but they keep poo-pooing everything, while giving no suggestions.  If that sounds confusing, it's because it is.  

 

I want a safe cruise.  We have a strong path to getting them.  Now it needs to be done.  Period.