May 12, 2021 CDC hearing set to start at 9:00am

[firefly333]

1 hour ago, coldflame said:

 

Nonsense. Life is mostly back to normal. It's people in this forum playing victim for waiting a few more months.

You are sure cruises will start in a few more months? If I was a firm date I'd feel a lot better. 

[harkinmr]

41 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

ASTA has some very valid points and should voice these concerns and advocate for their members on what appears to be a grave injustice to their industry, just like other trade group or union in the US would do for their members, if they were in the same situation and deprived of their livelihoods.   

Deleted.

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by harkinmr

[DCGuy64]

15 hours ago, Jimbo said:

Once injunction is granted doesn't mean they start cruising the next day. So , I'm saying every week they delay it adds 4 weeks before they start getting crew together, provisions, etc.

 

If they had got the go last week the start date was Mid July, now since it's a week later the new start might not be now until August 2021

In your opinion only, of course. 😉

[orville99]

1 hour ago, coldflame said:

 

What are you on about? While cases are way down and vaccinations way up in the US, that's not true at all of other places in the world. People here in particular are myopic in that just because it's not a problem here, it's not a problem elsewhere and the risk of bringing the disease back to the states. 

True, but those concerns are only relevant with a specific cohort of passengers and choices of ports to visit. If cruises out of the U.S. were initially limited to U.S. residents, and went to ports where the case rate is low, the risk is miniscule.

 

A typical Eastern visits a combination of Puerto Rico (new case rate = 43/day); USVI (new case rate = 23/day); and/or St. Martin (new case rate = 4/day), plus one of two RCL private islands - both of which will start receiving guests when RCL starts sailing out of Nassau in June.

[DCGuy64]

50 minutes ago, broberts said:

Because ASTA is objective and only has the health and well being of all Americans at heart. 🙄

Really? That was beneath you. If you can gainsay any of the statistics ASTA cited, be my guest. Are you suggesting that because the travel agents have something to gain by lifting the no sail order, that automatically prejudices everything they say and now they're lying? Otherwise, what's the point of your sarcasm? Come on, I pegged you as better than that.

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, harkinmr said:

People keep forgetting that the State of Florida has brought this lawsuit on their own behalf and are relying on their own specified economic damages.  The cruise lines have not joined in this lawsuit and so industry losses are tangential to the case.  The judge will be making his decision on the plaintiff's claims, not the industry.

 

It's true that the cruise lines have not brought a lawsuit or joined the Florida litigation for reasons known to them.  However, in the past few days NCL's CEO has been very vocal in the media outlets strongly articulating what he deems is a terrible injustice to his industry.  He went so far as to use colorful language and call the CDC stupid and un-American and illegal.  (See interview link below)

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/norwegian-cruise-line-holdings-ceo-cdc-guidelines-for-cruises-are-stupid/vi-BB1gvgMQ

 

The CDC is also losing its credibility with members of the senate who used to think the agency was the "gold standard"

 

https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-no-longer-gold-standard-192738261.html   

 

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

It's true that the cruise lines have not brought a lawsuit or joined the Florida litigation for reasons known to them.  However, in the past few days NCL's CEO has been very vocal in the media outlets strongly articulating what he deems is a terrible injustice to his industry.  He went so far as to use colorful language and call the CDC stupid and un-American and illegal.  (See interview link below)

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/norwegian-cruise-line-holdings-ceo-cdc-guidelines-for-cruises-are-stupid/vi-BB1gvgMQ

 

The CDC is also losing its credibility with members of the senate who used to think the agency was the "gold standard"

 

https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-no-longer-gold-standard-192738261.html   

 

And you seem to believe that hyperbole and "public opinion" are going to sway the judge.  Could not be farther from the truth.

[jrapps]

Just now, livingonthebeach said:

 

It's true that the cruise lines have not brought a lawsuit or joined the Florida litigation for reasons known to them.  However, in the past few days NCL's CEO has been very vocal in the media outlets strongly articulating what he deems is a terrible injustice to his industry.  He went so far as to use colorful language and call the CDC stupid and un-American and illegal.  (See interview link below)

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/norwegian-cruise-line-holdings-ceo-cdc-guidelines-for-cruises-are-stupid/vi-BB1gvgMQ

 

The CDC is also losing its credibility with members of the senate who used to think the agency was the "gold standard"

 

https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-no-longer-gold-standard-192738261.html   

 

This does beg the question, if he is so vocal about the CDCs actions, WHY has NCL not joined the lawsuit? One could surmise that they may not have too  high of hopes about it's success?

 

What someone spews of in the press to the court of public opinion matters little to a real court.

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, harkinmr said:

And you seem to believe that hyperbole and "public opinion" are going to sway the judge.  Could not be farther from the truth.

 

I have no idea what will "sway" the judge and neither do you.  I'm pointing out arguments that those involved in the industry are presenting.  The CDC has its own set of arguments as well, much of those posted on this thread.   It's in the judge's hands now.  

[livingonthebeach]

2 minutes ago, jrapps said:

This does beg the question, if he is so vocal about the CDCs actions, WHY has NCL not joined the lawsuit? One could surmise that they may not have too  high of hopes about it's success?

 

What someone spews of in the press to the court of public opinion matters little to a real court.

 

Correct, but it does show that they have been very patient up until now, trying not to publicly denounce the CDC.  But they've had enough and so have some lawmakers.  Even the New York Times recently published an article showing how "off" the agency really is. 

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

I have no idea what will "sway" the judge and neither do you.  I'm pointing out arguments that those involved in the industry are presenting.  The CDC has its own set of arguments as well, much of those posted on this thread.   It's in the judge's hands now.  

 

2 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Correct, but it does show that they have been very patient up until now, trying not to publicly denounce the CDC.  But they've had enough and so have some lawmakers.  Even the New York Times recently published an article showing how "off" the agency really is. 

Facts are facts and the law is the law.  That is what the judge will look at and apply.  Public opinion does not create law.  

[firefly333]

20 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

It's true that the cruise lines have not brought a lawsuit or joined the Florida litigation for reasons known to them.  However, in the past few days NCL's CEO has been very vocal in the media outlets strongly articulating what he deems is a terrible injustice to his industry.  He went so far as to use colorful language and call the CDC stupid and un-American and illegal.  (See interview link below)

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/norwegian-cruise-line-holdings-ceo-cdc-guidelines-for-cruises-are-stupid/vi-BB1gvgMQ

 

The CDC is also losing its credibility with members of the senate who used to think the agency was the "gold standard"

 

https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-no-longer-gold-standard-192738261.html   

 

NCL is working to sway public opinion, which does being pressure to the cdc to relax rules. It's all good imo. 

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, harkinmr said:

 

Facts are facts and the law is the law.  That is what the judge will look at and apply.  Public opinion does not create law.  

 

Thanks I think we all are very well aware of that.  This public opinion forum is exactly the right type of venue to present news items related to cruising, comment and opine our views.  Both sides of this lawsuit have their facts which have been presented here.  There are many links to the entire court docket and pdfs of complaints, briefs and motions for informational purposes.  As I mentioned previously, it's in the judge's hands. 

[jrapps]

5 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Correct, but it does show that they have been very patient up until now, trying not to publicly denounce the CDC.  But they've had enough and so have some lawmakers.  Even the New York Times recently published an article showing how "off" the agency really is. 

Hey, I get it. The CDC has made mistakes. Some may argue a lot of mistakes. My opinion is that when facing a pandemic of a brand new never before seen virus, they were in a lose-lose situation. No matter what they did, someone would have criticized. Go overboard and do the "everything possible to stop the virus" and people will complain they were overbearing, out of touch, against business and civil liberties. Play it safe, and run the risk of outbreaks, higher death toll, and people complaining that the CDC didn't do enough to protect American lives.

 

Hindsight is a (insert colorful word here). Everyone thinks that they could have done better knowing what we know now.

 

I still maintain that people for the most part come from a place of trying to do their best, trying to help people. I like to believe that people for the most part ultimately have noble intentions. Nobody is the villain of their own story, in their head they truly believe they were and are doing the "right thing".

 

I believe the CDC is erring on the side of caution (an overabundance of caution). Does that inconvenience me, and does it hurt businesses. Probably. Are they more focused on trying to save lives. Absolutely. I don't think they are trying to hurt the economy and civil liberties, and as a side effect save lives. I think they are trying to save lives, and as a side effect there are impacts to the economy and civil liberties.

[scorpluvsdolphins]

I hope the judge has the guts to set precedence, if necessary, in favor of Florida being allowed to run its state as the citizens want. We elected the government officials to make the best decisions for our state. 
Florida is vastly different than any other state. 

[Jimbo]

3 minutes ago, scorpluvsdolphins said:

Florida is vastly different than any other state. 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? That might be up for debate?

[scorpluvsdolphins]

4 minutes ago, jrapps said:

Hey, I get it. The CDC has made mistakes. Some may argue a lot of mistakes. My opinion is that when facing a pandemic of a brand new never before seen virus, they were in a lose-lose situation. No matter what they did, someone would have criticized. Go overboard and do the "everything possible to stop the virus" and people will complain they were overbearing, out of touch, against business and civil liberties. Play it safe, and run the risk of outbreaks, higher death toll, and people complaining that the CDC didn't do enough to protect American lives.

 

Hindsight is a (insert colorful word here). Everyone thinks that they could have done better knowing what we know now.

 

I still maintain that people for the most part come from a place of trying to do their best, trying to help people. I like to believe that people for the most part ultimately have noble intentions. Nobody is the villain of their own story, in their head they truly believe they were and are doing the "right thing".

 

I believe the CDC is erring on the side of caution (an overabundance of caution). Does that inconvenience me, and does it hurt businesses. Probably. Are they more focused on trying to save lives. Absolutely. I don't think they are trying to hurt the economy and civil liberties, and as a side effect save lives. I think they are trying to save lives, and as a side effect there are impacts to the economy and civil liberties.

Everyone gave the CDC extreme latitude last year. 
Times are different 14 months later and it seems the power has taken over. 
Stop treating all the states the same. 
Let states make their own decisions. 
 

[livingonthebeach]

2 minutes ago, jrapps said:

Hey, I get it. The CDC has made mistakes. Some may argue a lot of mistakes. My opinion is that when facing a pandemic of a brand new never before seen virus, they were in a lose-lose situation. No matter what they did, someone would have criticized. Go overboard and do the "everything possible to stop the virus" and people will complain they were overbearing, out of touch, against business and civil liberties. Play it safe, and run the risk of outbreaks, higher death toll, and people complaining that the CDC didn't do enough to protect American lives.

 

Hindsight is a (insert colorful word here). Everyone thinks that they could have done better knowing what we know now.

 

I still maintain that people for the most part come from a place of trying to do their best, trying to help people. I like to believe that people for the most part ultimately have noble intentions. Nobody is the villain of their own story, in their head they truly believe they were and are doing the "right thing".

 

I believe the CDC is erring on the side of caution (an overabundance of caution). Does that inconvenience me, and does it hurt businesses. Probably. Are they more focused on trying to save lives. Absolutely. I don't think they are trying to hurt the economy and civil liberties, and as a side effect save lives. I think they are trying to save lives, and as a side effect there are impacts to the economy and civil liberties.

 

I will agree that at the beginning, it was a very tough balancing act considering what the agency was facing.  In general, people were understanding of their predicament and cut them a lot of slack -- I know, I was one of those.  

 

But as time progressed, and a lot more was known about treatments, remedies and the rolling out of vaccines, the agency, for whatever reasons, failed to act in tandem with the pace of the progression.  The  delaying of directives to a certain industry that some US states heavily rely upon and the agency's failure to act in a timely matter, caused an undue burden to the economies of several states and the industry as well as to those dependent on the industry.

[harkinmr]

13 minutes ago, scorpluvsdolphins said:

Everyone gave the CDC extreme latitude last year. 
Times are different 14 months later and it seems the power has taken over. 
Stop treating all the states the same. 
Let states make their own decisions. 
 

But you see, this lawsuit and the decision stemming from it, will impact not just Florida, but other states with cruising ports.  Yes, Alaska and Texas have joined, but California, Washington, Boston, NY/NJ, Maryland and Louisiana have not.  This decision will impact the entire country.  States can do what they like to govern their own domain, but they have no power to impose their decision making elsewhere.

[jrapps]

6 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

I will agree that at the beginning, it was a very tough balancing act considering what the agency was facing.  In general, people were understanding of their predicament and cut them a lot of slack -- I know, I was one of those.  

 

But as time progressed, and a lot more was known about treatments, remedies and the rolling out of vaccines, the agency, for whatever reasons, failed to act in tandem with the pace of the progression.  The  delaying of directives to a certain industry that some US states heavily rely upon and the agency's failure to act in a timely matter, caused an undue burden to the economies of several states and the industry as well as to those dependent on the industry.

I don't disagree with anything you said. I just think some people expect the CDC to turn like a formula500 racecar, and instead, it is turning like a Cruise Ship! LOL. Very slowly. Maybe too slowly for our patience, but that is how it seems.

[ShipFan13]

3 minutes ago, jrapps said:

CDC to turn like a formula500 racecar, and instead, it is turning like a Cruise Ship! LOL.

 

I'm thinking ice glacier in molasses 😄

[jrapps]

Just now, ShipFan13 said:

 

I'm thinking ice glacier in molasses 😄

Iceberg, dead ahead? LOL 🤣

 

Let's just not go down with the ship!

[scorpluvsdolphins]

5 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

But you see, this lawsuit and the decision stemming from it, will impact not just Florida, but other states with cruising ports.  Yes, Alaska and Texas have joined, but California, Washington, Boston, NY/NJ, Maryland and Louisiana have not.  This decision will impact the entire country.  States can do what they like to govern their own domain, but they have no power to impose their decision making elsewhere.

That is why we need less Federal government control and more state level control. 
We wouldn’t need to sue in court to set precedence. 

[mauraoel]

7 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

But you see, this lawsuit and the decision stemming from it, will impact not just Florida, but other states with cruising ports.  Yes, Alaska and Texas have joined, but California, Washington, Boston, NY/NJ, Maryland and Louisiana have not.  This decision will impact the entire country.  States can do what they like to govern their own domain, but they have no power to impose their decision making elsewhere.

And again he/she said let the states make the decision so if NY doesn't want to open to cruises they don't have to. 

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, jrapps said:

I don't disagree with anything you said. I just think some people expect the CDC to turn like a formula500 racecar, and instead, it is turning like a Cruise Ship! LOL. Very slowly. Maybe too slowly for our patience, but that is how it seems.

 

Yes, it is after all a government agency which is not immune to maze of rules, regulations, paperwork — and lots of "red tape".  I only hope that if ever, god forbid, another similar situation comes up that it turns more like the Spirit of Australia and not a river barge.