Tipping now more important than ever

[navybankerteacher]

22 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

We're just reading what you write and drawing reasonable inferences.  You'd be amazed at how your fixation reveals so much of your character and personality.

You realize, of course, that you are making ASSUMPTIONS - which we have been told not to do.

[Toofarfromthesea]

4 hours ago, KBs mum said:

I'm in the higher wages instead of tips camp. My theory is that as more people remove the gratuities from their payments (either because they prefer to tip directly, or they come from a non tipping culture) the cruise lines still have to meet the staff incomes required by contracts or legislation and so up the prices to cover their extra expenditure. I also think that all inclusive is popular with those on a budget, or at the other end of the financial spectrum, may add to a perception of luxury

 

 

And yet the lines that bundle the gratuities into the fare tend to be the higher priced lines, not the budget lines.  And those lines don't say, "tipping is not required because we pay our employees a better wage", they say "gratuities included". And of course we don't even know IF the non-tipping lines actually DO pay a better wage.  Maybe it is just a marketing ploy to reach folks like you and Peter.

 

The real question that hasn't been touched on at all is whether employees would prefer to work on a fixed-wage, no tips cruise or on a cruise with a daily gratuity amount and possible extra tips.  Without that answer you are putting YOUR preference over theirs.  It would also be interesting to compare the wage on a no tipping line to the base wage on a mass market tipping line.  It seems to me that those who want to change the status quo have the burden of showing that those most deeply affected by a change, i.e., crew, are in favor of it.  No such showing has even been undertaken.

[Toofarfromthesea]

19 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

You realize, of course, that you are making ASSUMPTIONS - which we have been told not to do.

 

Of course you and I know the difference between an assumption and a reasoned inference, even if Peter doesn't.

[ilikeanswers]

4 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

On post 748 I asked the question "But now a new option is emerging in the shape of more non tipping cruises. Why do you think cruise lines may be doing this?"

 

No takers so far. It's not a trick question, but one particularly aimed at the 'everything is OK as it is' camp.

 

My guess because more non Americans are cruising. I saw a doco a while back about the history of cruising and they said that mass tourism cruises was invented by USA companies sailing the Caribbean so most of their customers would have been American hence American culture on cruise ships but I remember reading pre covid that Europeans were now prolific cruises (especially Germans apparently😂). On top of that the Asian middle class is growing and they increasingly travelling more including cruising. So I think as more non Americans are cruising it makes sense that cruise lines would make products catering to those markets. 

[LGW59]

3 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

My guess because more non Americans are cruising. I saw a doco a while back about the history of cruising and they said that mass tourism cruises was invented by USA companies sailing the Caribbean so most of their customers would have been American hence American culture on cruise ships but I remember reading pre covid that Europeans were now prolific cruises (especially Germans apparently😂). On top of that the Asian middle class is growing and they increasingly travelling more including cruising. So I think as more non Americans are cruising it makes sense that cruise lines would make products catering to those markets. 

As of 2019

 

Characteristic	Global passenger share
United States	47.8%
Germany	8.7%
UK	6.5%
China	6.5%

[ilikeanswers]

41 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

As of 2019

 

Characteristic	Global passenger share
United States	47.8%
Germany	8.7%
UK	6.5%
China	6.5%

 

You are missing alot of countries😂. What I wanted to post is behind a paywall but I found something from 2018 that is a little more comprehensive then your table and demonstrates there is a 50/50 split between American and non American cruisers, so that is a massive market that cruise lines can't afford to ignore. 

 

Region of residence Number of Passengers % of all (source CLIA posted on 30 Cruise Industry Statistics and Facts) 

 

North America 14,240,000 50%

 

Western Europe 6,731,000 24%

 

Asia 4,240,000 15%

 

Australasia 1,460,000 5%

 

South America 883,000 3%

 

Scandinavia 225,000 1%

 

Eastern Europe 213,000 1%

 

Africa 154,000 1%

 

Middle East 111,000 0%

 

Caribbean 56,000 0%

 

Central Americ a 47,000 0%

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[iancal]

5 hours ago, KBs mum said:

The issue for those who would prefer higher wages passed on to the customer via higher prices is that we think that it would be a better method of renumeration for the employee, being reliable, fairer and not affected by things beyond their control. Also people from other cultures can't get it wrong if all they are expected to pay is the amount on the bill/menu/sticker. 

The customer and how they choose to spend their cash is not our primary concern. The non tip system works well in many countries and on several cruise lines, so we are stating the case for it to be universal

Well that is not how it is on many cruise lines.  So just adapt.  Tip, don't tip....or if this situation really bothers you then select another cruise line or vacation.   

 

You are not going to solve 'world hunger'.  Nor will you persuade others to do it your way.  Just make a personal decision and move forward with it.  No need to share that decision with anyone.  Just get on with it and move forward.

 

The amount we tip varies greatly with where we are...the UK, Europe, Australia, SE Asia, US or home in Canada.   No different to us than in some countries the salad comes after the entree.   It is not such a great challenge.

 

Really....how hard can it be????

Edited March 4, 2022 by iancal

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

And yet the lines that bundle the gratuities into the fare tend to be the higher priced lines, not the budget lines.  And those lines don't say, "tipping is not required because we pay our employees a better wage", they say "gratuities included". And of course we don't even know IF the non-tipping lines actually DO pay a better wage.  Maybe it is just a marketing ploy to reach folks like you and Peter.

 

The real question that hasn't been touched on at all is whether employees would prefer to work on a fixed-wage, no tips cruise or on a cruise with a daily gratuity amount and possible extra tips.  Without that answer you are putting YOUR preference over theirs.  It would also be interesting to compare the wage on a no tipping line to the base wage on a mass market tipping line.  It seems to me that those who want to change the status quo have the burden of showing that those most deeply affected by a change, i.e., crew, are in favor of it.  No such showing has even been undertaken.

Not true regarding how the non tipping lines advertise their product, its only gratuities included if the majority of customers are US, and some of those just say no need to tip. Not all are the expensive lines, there are budget lines in Europe and elsewhere that are non tipping. 

I'm not saying any crew would necessarily earn less on a non tipping basis, the wage could be the same as the previous wage + tips amount, or allmost the same with any tips being a nice bonus rather than a necessity. 

The non tipping lines don't seem to have difficulty attracting staff, or at least no more problems than any other which suggests that crew are happy to forgo tips if the wages are acceptable to them. 

I can not speak for any other person, and am not trying to do so, I do know that I moved jobs to get out of a culture of performance based pay, as my income was affected by factors I could not control, and by people whose standard of work I could do nothing about. I took a pay cut to do so but the atmosphere at wotk is far less toxic, customer service at the current employer is better than the previous one, as staff do a good job because they want to, not as a box ticking for the appraisal exercise. I am not going to retype everything I've said to explain why I think a non tipping system is better.

 

 

 

[ldubs]

I know of mainstream lines raising prices to accommodate cultures who do not tip.  I've been on one of those cruises and probably more.   We had one fare and tipped and the folks from that other place had a higher flat fare.  I understood there were also some country specific fees involved so the higher fees were not all about the grats.   Either way, the pricing accommodation protected wages due to the number of "non-tippers" on board.   

 

I am not familiar with lines that are 100% non-tipping. Who are they?  

Edited March 4, 2022 by ldubs
Oops

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

Well that is not how it is on many cruise lines.  So just adapt.  Tip, don't tip....or if this situation really bothers you then select another cruise line or vacation.   

 

You are not going to solve 'world hunger'.  Nor will you persuade others to do it your way.  Just make a personal decision and move forward with it.  No need to share that decision with anyone.  Just get on with it and move forward.

 

The amount we tip varies greatly with where we are...the UK, Europe, Australia, SE Asia, US or home in Canada.   No different to us than in some countries the salad comes after the entree.   It is not such a great challenge.

 

Really....how hard can it be????

Why are you so aggressive towards people who disagree with you? The whole point of discussion is to exchange ideas and viewpoints, I'm explaining my reasoning and replying to questions. Participants don't have to agree or even be trying to convince anybody of anything to make the process of conversation worthwhile. 

 

How well staff are treated is an important factor when we are deciding which companies to use, the cruise line we use operates a sort of hybrid gratuity/non gratuity policy depending on where the customer is from, they are thought to be among the best in the business regarding staff pay and conditions. One factor is that they don't charge crew for Internet use, and prioritise the staff network over the passenger one, which is a policy I agree with, this is something that has nothing to do with how staff derive their income. 

 

I have no major objections to tips as pay, I just think it is a system with more drawbacks than benefits and a higher wage no tip model is better, I tip as the locals do wherever I happen to be, which in some countries is not at all, and in the US is a lot

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by KBs mum

[KBs mum]

3 minutes ago, ldubs said:

I know of mainstream lines raising prices to accommodate cultures who do not tip.  I've been on one of those cruises and probably more.   We had one fare and tipped and the folks from that other place had a higher flat fare.  I understood there were also some country specific fees involved so the higher fees were not all about the grats.   Either way, the pricing accommodation protected wages due to the number of "non-tippers" on board.   

 

I am not familiar with lines that are 100% non-tipping. Who are they?  

Most of the European lines and those with a majority of non US passengers on specific sailings. The luxury devisions of the megaship corporations are often non tipping. 

[ilikeanswers]

43 minutes ago, ldubs said:

I am not familiar with lines that are 100% non-tipping. Who are they?  

 

In Australia there is a mainstream line called P&O in which there is no tipping. 

[GUT2407]

26 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

In Australia there is a mainstream line called P&O in which there is no tipping. 

Nor on NCL, Princess, Celebrity, RCCL, etc. but I understand that to have been because it is illegal done here to add a compulsory fee on top of the advertised price. Strewth don’t think I’ve cruised with auto grats in 15+ years.

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

In Australia there is a mainstream line called P&O in which there is no tipping. 

 

I'm familiar with "gratuities included" in the luxury line fares, though some still add grats for certain things.     I read that with P&O's fixed seating option it is common for folks to leave a tip because the same MDR staff have served them throughout the cruise.   But it is not to be considered obligatory or expected.   

 

So I guess one thing I don't get in all this back and forth is some folks object to gratuities being used as part of staff pay with one of the reasons given that they somehow feel coerced into paying them.   But it is OK to include them in the fare and thereby make then absolutely mandatory.   Just sign up for the auto-grats pay or whatever it is called and it will be just like "grats included".  And then there will be much happiness!  😃

 

We do occasionally see "gratuity included" deals with the mainstream lines.  I suspect that more and more cruise lines will move towards a "grats included" model, except for potentially negative tax or stockholder value issues.  

 

[ldubs]

10 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

Nor on NCL, Princess, Celebrity, RCCL, etc. but I understand that to have been because it is illegal done here to add a compulsory fee on top of the advertised price. Strewth don’t think I’ve cruised with auto grats in 15+ years.

 

What you say is what I was given to understand from my friends down in your neck of the woods.   

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

Nor on NCL, Princess, Celebrity, RCCL, etc. but I understand that to have been because it is illegal done here to add a compulsory fee on top of the advertised price. Strewth don’t think I’ve cruised with auto grats in 15+ years.

 

From Australia certainly but I'm pretty sure if leaving from America they do the auto gratuities. So they are technically tipping cruise lines in the right part of the world😂. 

4 hours ago, ldubs said:

I read that with P&O's fixed seating option it is common for folks to leave a tip because the same MDR staff have served them throughout the cruise. But it is not to be considered obligatory or expected.   

 

That would be common amongst the American passengers😉. I once heard an interview with a P&O wait staff who said as a joke "it is like Americans are cursed with money and are desperate to get rid of it" 😂

 

4 hours ago, ldubs said:

So I guess one thing I don't get in all this back and forth is some folks object to gratuities being used as part of staff pay with one of the reasons given that they somehow feel coerced into paying them.  But it is OK to include them in the fare and thereby make then absolutely mandatory.   Just sign up for the auto-grats pay or whatever it is called and it will be just like "grats included".  And then there will be much happiness!  😃

 

I will say from my point of view I don't particularly like the whole aspect of shaming people into paying it. They present DSC as voluntary but there is this whole social stigma around removing it. Playing into people's sense of shame seems like a very negative and kind of coercive way to get people to pay something. If it is mandatory it at least makes it a mindless payment like all the other fees bundled into the price. It would eliminate the negative fear of social shaming attached to it. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[Peter Lanky]

9 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

See, this right here is the kind of thing that is so revealing.  You are compelled to try to impose YOUR ideas and taste on others.  The tip-off is that you "would no doubt attempt to convince you of the obvious benefits of British ale" while a normal person would understand that it is not a one-size fits all world.  I like Zywiec Porter, but I'd never try to convince anyone of its benefits.  I'd just let them try it and decide for themself. 

 

This thread right here is another example.  It makes up a HUGE percentage of your participation on this board.  Earlier you said you vowed to not post on this thread again, but the sad truth is that you just can't seem to help yourself.  You seem to fit Winston Churchill's definition of a fanatic -- "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

I don't recall ever having said that, but as you appear to have made such a comprehensive analysis of me, I'm sure you will point it out to me.

 

What do you consider wrong with trying to introduce a new product to somebody who has probably never tried it, but just shuns it on hearsay? Somebody tried to convince me of the greatness of 'Nutella' which I had avoided avidly. However I tried it and the result was that I found it disgusting, but at least now I know. I don't now have negative feelings the person who persuaded me to try it.

 

I still can't get my head around your obsession with my perceived character. It really doesn't matter. 

[Peter Lanky]

1 minute ago, ilikeanswers said:

From Australia certainly but I'm pretty sure if leaving from America they do the auto gratuities. So they are technically tipping cruise lines in the right part of the world😂. 

 

That would be common amongst the American passengers😉. I once heard an interview with a P&O wait staff who said as a joke "it is like Americans are cursed with money and are desperate to get rid of it" 😂

 

I will say from my point of view I don't particularly like the whole aspect of shaming people into paying it. They present DSC as voluntary but there is this whole social stigma around removing it. Playing into people's sense of shame seems like a very negative way to get people to pay something. Why not just include it in the price and remove the whole social stigmatisation?

I was due to depart from Miami tomorrow on the American (sorry I mean Maltese or Liberian 😉) cruise line Azamara. This is completely non tipping, which is why I chose it. The thought of travelling where people were not likely to try to shame me was very appealing, in fact it was the major consideration.

 

One thing I have learned from this thread is just what lengths the industry as a whole has gone to to pay staff as little as possible, and avoid taxation and regulations, while managing to pit people from different nations against each other in their methods of acquiring revenue.

[ontheweb]

15 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Yes, it's chip van night, so I'll send someone along with a list. Do you want cod, haddock or plaice? 

Tough choice, but I guess I will take the cod.

[ontheweb]

For those of you on this thread who are adamant about only sailing on a line without tipping, what are you going to do once you get off the ship in ports? Whether you take a ship's excursion or a private excursion, there is going to be tipping. And on some, there will even be pressure to tip.

[ilikeanswers]

23 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

For those of you on this thread who are adamant about only sailing on a line without tipping, what are you going to do once you get off the ship in ports? Whether you take a ship's excursion or a private excursion, there is going to be tipping. And on some, there will even be pressure to tip.

 

While I'm not tip avoiding, I was thinking isn't that question destination dependant? 

Edited March 4, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[wowzz]

9 hours ago, ldubs said:

I am not familiar with lines that are 100% non-tipping. Who are they?

Well, Saga, P&O,  Marella, to name just three.  

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

While I'm not tip avoiding, I was thinking isn't that question destination dependant? 

Although many countries have a no tipping culture, I think you will find tips being asked for on shore excursions almost everywhere you go.

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

For those of you on this thread who are adamant about only sailing on a line without tipping, what are you going to do once you get off the ship in ports? Whether you take a ship's excursion or a private excursion, there is going to be tipping. And on some, there will even be pressure to tip.

That's a bridge to be crossed when the time comes. At the moment I am only booked on 2 cruises which are some time in the future, and the only issue might be one of them ending in Alaska. Any perceived pressure will reduce any chance of me complying though, as this is my main gripe.

[Peter Lanky]

52 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Well, Saga, P&O,  Marella, to name just three.  

Add to that Celebrity, Azamara and all the luxury lines. Technically they're not 100% non tipping as it's not actually banned.

 

Unfortunately any voluntary extra tipping on these lines, i.e. double tipping, may lead to some expectation from the crew.